DIY Rotating Return

[ReefVan]

This thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115828&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
is presently being discussed in the Reef Central DIY forum.

It was widely discussed on the Reefs.Org General Reefkeeping Discussion forum a few months back until it was closed due to the discussion straying from the subject matter.

DIYers might find this new twist very interesting... :wink:

 

[ReefVan]

Geez,

Got yanked again on RC, I'm 2 for 2.

Here's the picture that upset someone, AquaGate circa 1996-1998.

Looks like a DIY project doesn't it?

 

[ReefVan]

Hi,

Now here's my DIY version...

 

[Kabob]

Could you post a parts list and where you would most likely find them?

Thanks,
Jason

 

[ReefVan]

Kabob,

Let me think a bit on that one, last time I posted this info on RC it was deleted shortly thereafter by the Mods. I'll try to present it another way perhaps.

Seems to be a sensitive issue with some folks...

I'm receiving a couple of AquaGates this week, after making an exhaustive analysis of all dimensions and materials I'll get back to you.

Perhaps once properly modded these units will finally be reliable and run for years instead of months.

Van

 

[ReefVan]

Kabob,

If you got your hands on an old rotating return of some sort you could probably fix it up so it would run by using this repair page... :wink:

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/pages/diy_rotating_return_R_and_O.htm

and if you wanted a little history lesson on how rotating returns evolved you could visit this page...

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/pages/Aquagate_vs_SeaSwirl.htm

Enjoy, hopes it's educational.

 

[gr_reefer]

yea i dont understand what is going on over at RC, i mean it is a valid argument that proves that someone screwed up by patenting something that was already on the market. i think it is time for another post over there and see how long it takes to get yanked.

gr_reefer

 

[ReefVan]

gr_reefer,

It has been yanked twice so far on RC. :roll:

Let them come visit our site here on Reefs.Org for a change, they can perhaps then see that there are other interesting sites besides RC that exist. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not too familiar with the product, and not at all familiar with what's going on over on RC, but, I will send out a small caution, and that is that, unless you really have the funds and wherewithall to enter into an extended court battle, please be careful whose plans you're using. Could it be possible that the admins over there have encountered such a problem before and want to save themselves the headache? I really don't know the answer to that, but it might be worth considering.

I only say this because if there's a patent on this product, you could get yourself into some legal hot water, and we don't want that.

 

[ReefVan]

seamaiden,

First there is no patent on the Aquagate, if there was then the patent on the Sea-Swirl would be void.

Second, lets not get into the legalities,name-calling and insinuations that killed a similar thread on both RC DIY and in the Reef Discussion Forum here.

The allegation last time was that the DIY version was a knock-off of the Sea-Swirl. It is not, it is an adaptation based on the un-patented Aquagate which is now out of business and defunct.

Only expressing my humble opinion.

Van

 

[Anonymous]

Care to point out where I did any name-calling?

I simply wanted to point something out, made my point, and that should be it.

And, more to the point, what, exactly, is wrong with expressing a concern for possible legalities? Just because you don't want to? That won't stop me from having my concerns, nor will it stop me from expressing my own thoughts.

 

[Anonymous]

yea i dont understand what is going on over at RC, i mean it is a valid argument that proves that someone screwed up by patenting something that was already on the market.
gr_reefer

Thats not how it works. First to patent it owns it unless the person questioning the patent wants to go through expensive legal hoops. Patenting is very expensive, and thats why lots of people don't do it. Challenging a patent is likewise.

<rto taskforce official>

Second, lets not get into the legalities,name-calling and insinuations that killed a similar thread on both RC DIY and in the Reef Discussion Forum here.

A valid discussion might be about the legalites or the ethics of something like this, and if that is the way the tread goes, I suggest we should embrace it nicely. And, I agree, lets work real hard to avoid name calling and mud slinging.

</rdo taskforce official>

The allegation last time was that the DIY version was a knock-off of the Sea-Swirl. It is not, it is an adaptation based on the un-patented Aquagate which is now out of business and defunct.

I think you should lose the 'Sea Squirrel' thing because that is just asking for trouble. If you really are making the claim that your thing is a diy knockoff of the Aquagate, I don't really understand why you are poking the badger by calling it a 'Sea Squirrel'. DIY is not going to hurt the makers of the SS, but if you falunt it in their face I could understand why they would get mad.

That all said, my question is how much does your diy project cost, including shipping costs of the components, and how long does it take to build, including finding and shipping the components?

Lets keep this discussion friendly,

RR :mrgreen:

 

[LA-Lawman]

You got some good DIY's man.... your website is very informative....

good job...

I would consider a makeover of the Sea Squirrel name. something a little more on the DownLow.....

 

[ReefVan]

seamaiden,

I'm still a little edgy from my last 2 squashed threads on RC, sorry if you were offended, that was not my intent, it's the posts that usually follow after that are the problem.

The freedom of expression only goes so far and then that's when the legal eagles will swoop in and close the thread, don't say I didn't warn you.
Your point is taken, thankyou.

Righty & LA-Lawman,

Point taken about the name, it was baptised by someone else.

Righty,

Sorry but that's not how it works, read thru the USPTO site for a few hours. You are misinformed, there is a whole page contradicting your interpretation on their site.

There's a thing called "prior art" and being sold on the market for over a year prior. This is your hint...

Let's not go there, see above, just enjoy a DIY version of an un-patented defunct design and don't dig any further, it will cause a problem later in this thread.

If we want to discuss legalities and ethics I suggest you open another thread on the subject so when it degenerates, as they so far in the past all seem to have done, this info won't disappear with it.

No one says the Sea-Swirl isn't a good product.
No one says you shouldn't buy one.
No one says it shouldn't rightly be the successful product it is.

This is simply a DIY project relating to a defunct un-patented product which carries out the same function, and that is not illegal.


Just my Humble Opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

Point taken about the name, it was baptised by someone else

This is your thread, about your DIY project, so what the device is called is up to you.

....This is simply a DIY project relating to a defunct un-patented product which carries out the same function, and that is not illegal.

I still think if you are really serious about avoiding legal discussion, you should change the name of this thread - and answer the questions that have been asked about components, prices and times.

Righty,
There's a thing called "prior art" and being sold on the market for over a year prior. This is your hint...

The person claiming 'prior art' still has to make the challenge and win it. I would like to stop talking about the legalities and I hope this will be the last reference to it in this thread.

I would still like to know the answers to my money and time questions. :mrgreen:

 

[ReefVan]

Righty,

O.K, probably the best thing would be for me to clarify here and now is that under no circumstances does this DIY project aim to challenge the Sea-Swirl patent. It is an adaptation derived from the Aquagate solution.

This DIY design takes a certain level of skill, improvisation and patience due to working with a precision rotating joint that when pressurized with 1100 gph of saltwater, requires that things have been done correctly.

In order that the direction of this thread be clearly followed I will re-post under a new title, as I'm pretty sure I can't edit the existing one anymore.

The new thread will be pure DIY and hopefully void of any legal or ethical interpretations, which will probably sneak in there anyway. (Trolls beware!)

I will attempt to post it in an organized and sequential fashion.

The prices may vary in your area as well as shipping due to the fact that availability and pricing of items chosen are different in Canada and the U.S, which is why prices will be a rough guesstimate for most of you.

 

[Anonymous]

seamaiden,

I'm still a little edgy from my last 2 squashed threads on RC, sorry if you were offended, that was not my intent, it's the posts that usually follow after that are the problem.

The freedom of expression only goes so far and then that's when the legal eagles will swoop in and close the thread, don't say I didn't warn you.
Your point is taken, thankyou.

Clearly, not having had an experience even close to yours, Van, and I could only draw a few conclusions based on your posts. Because I do not visit any other aquatic site except for wetwebmedia I haven't been exposed to the trials and tribulations I'm reading about of late. I can completely understand that you're a bit wary when someone brings up talk of legal issues. However, I am also a big believer in preparedness (all these years in earthquake country, eh?).

As far as freedom of expression, I don't believe I've crossed any lines. I was actually worried that you may have, and could be headed for trouble, the mom in me came out.

I have also read of late legal problems others have had, different situations, but still, when we get those lawyers involved (nothing personal Mr. Milz!) I am concerned for any involved. That was my feeling when I read your post, and I simply don't want to hear/read of more members of RDO (or otherwise) getting into trouble. We're here to disseminate good information, not get into the kind of trouble I keep hearing of...I'll just leave it at that. I hope you understand.

ALL that being said, I am ALL FOR anyone who does the DIY thing, and if you've got rockin' plans then I'm all for sharing. You could go and get proprietary and not share your knowledge with folks, and that would be a loss of information to any interested hobbyist, but you haven't and you're sharing your information. I think that's a good thing (as Ms. Stewart is often wont to say).

<sm, the queen of cheap to free...and a believer in ROPE> :lol:

 

[hfmann]

Not exactly on topic, but....

I've got to build a clamp for my old Aquagate and wondered what the author of the repair and overhaul site means when he says. "If you install nylon screws wet with epoxy, they won't work loose. " Is he talking about dipping the screws in epoxy cement before using?

Also appreciate any ideas on building the clamp.

Thanks.
Hal
_________________
Television Forums

 

[ReefVan]

Hi hfmann,

That's right, I did say that didn't I. Yes, when installed wet they won't work loose... I did notice a tendency for this to happen due to the motor torque on the box and the rotating spout force of exiting water.

I ran my DIY Rotating Return at 1100 gph, well over the usual limit, it held up but the box worked hard. 8O

I've researched the bonding of nylon on the 'net and as far as the answers I received from the manufacturers goes, zippo.

I conferred with some of my Aerospace Materials and Process Engineering friends at work and guess what? Everyone says you can't bond nylon, not true! It isn't easy, but if you use the following product it works well.

3M Scotch-Weld 1838-L B/A Translucent Epoxy Adhesive

This stuff sticks like you wouldn't believe! Takes a couple of days to fully cure but wow! One of the benefits of working in aerospace engineering I guess.

The stuff you learn there really relates well to a lot of the DIY projects I carry out. :wink: Makes everything you do just a little more hi-tech and over-engineered. :lol:

Hope this info helps you out... 8)

As for the brackets, see the top of the R&O page, any further questions, don't be shy just fire away.

 

[Anonymous]

Ya know, my dad's nickname around the house is "Professor Glue". He'll poop his panties when he sees THIS! :lol:

Got any others to share? I have one, to fix splits in acrylic aquariums--liquid cyanoacrylate (superglue) and artificial nail catalyst (used to have the generic name for the stuff...but now, who knows).