Breeding condition

[Paul B]

"Breeding Condition" for fish is a term that used to be used a lot but I don't hear it any more. It means that the fish are in such a good condition that they are capable of breeding. In a tank it is not easy to keep fish in this condition. Almost no fish in a store will be in this condition which is also the reason that you see so many animals for sale with ich. Fish in breeding condition almost never get ich or anything else (personal experience, don't beat me up).
Fish in breeding condition have scales that look like velvet and shiny, aware eyes. They rarely hide (except for some species) and are constantly cleaning nest sites (unless they are egg scatters) and chasing other fish away. They will also fight rival males.
These nuances are not always easy to see and may take years to fully understand.
If you do much diving you can immediately notice the differences in behavior in wild fish.
Fish are not evenly scattered in all tropical seas for a few reasons, one is obviousely that they can't get there but the other is water conditions like temperature, depth, food, salinity etc.
We can't do much for depth but we have control of the other variables.
Food is a big one that is vastly misunderstood. We can get most fish to eat almost anything. My moorish Idol would eat cardboard if I put some clam juice on it. Too many times we feel that if the fish is eating we are doing our jobs. We are not. Many people feed fish fillets, lettuce, crabmeat, shrimpmeat, beef heart, brine shrimp, and flakes. With the exception of brine shrimp and flakes, these foods are all fine for people but maybe not the best for fish. They will keep fish alive but will not get them into the best condition they can be in or breeding condition. Fish in the sea eat mostly fish. Whole fish, not fillets. Most of the nutrition in a fish is condensed in the organs. Almost all of the vitamin "A" is in the liver and all of the calcium is in the bones. They also eat whole shrimp, shell and all along with whole crab.
They do not eat beef heart (piranna maybe). Beef should never be fed to fish because the fats in beef need a higher temperature to be liquified making it hard to digest in a fish. Fish have no fat, just oils.
The best diet for salt water fish is live salt water fish. I know this is tough to get and almost no one has access to this food especially in the winter so it is important to get these missing nutrients into the fish. Vitamin "A" is especially lacking in aquarium fish and is a large part of their natural diet. A fish liver is about 25% vitamin "A".
I get tiny dried salt water fish from an Asian market and sometimes use these but they are like wood and need a lot of time to soften up.
I feed live California black worms every day and can get almost any fish into breeding condition in a couple of weeks with this food. I understand that they are not available in all parts of the country which is a shame since they are very common in NY. I have been feeding them to my fish since the early sixtees.
I also soak flake food or pellets in Cod Liver OIl which is essencially vitamin "A" and feed this about once a week.
For larger fish like groopers, morays, lions, and frog fish I sometimes inject cod liver oil into guppies to feed to these fish. I know that is a pain, but if you have a fish that only eats live fish and all you can get is guppies, it works.
Live newborn brine shrimp is an excellent food for smaller fish and sometimes the only food some fish will eat. I hatch these every day and fill my reef with them.
I know these methods work, I have not lost a fish to a disease in over twenty years and if there is no accident, they die of old age which may be 20 years in many fish.
Anybody have and opinions or comments?

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Thanks Paul. This is great info.

 

[Killerdrgn]

I get tiny dried salt water fish from an Asian market and sometimes use these but they are like wood and need a lot of time to soften up.
Anybody have and opinions or comments?

Umm what are these tiny dried saltwater fish that you get? You have a picture of em?

 

[jhale]

I have a comment, great post

I can add an observation about feeding flakes vs feeding a homemade shrimp based formula. For a long time I fed my fish, flake foods. I have one damsel that grew up and was a plain drab color. After feeding with the shrimp formula after several months the damsel turned a beautiful dark blue and the top of his dorsal fin turned yellow. I now spoil my fish and get them the best ingredients I can.

 

[kris]

Anybody have and opinions or comments?

YES. Please post more. Your threads are the most informative and educational around!

 

[Bob 1000]

Just that since I have been on manhatten reefs... I almost wait for a Paul B thread... Thanks for the info and inspiration... When I first came hear people said he's crazy and I knew then that I will end up listening to this person more than anyone else hear...
Keep up the good work crazy guy I'm still listening.lol.:wink1::wink1:

 

[Paul B]

:lol2: I have been called much worse than "crazy". I am a combat Veteran and being called crazy will not bother me at all. I consider it a compliment. I also know that my tank is not the nices't tank here by far. Some of these "not so crazy" guys do some nice work even without my wierd methods.
Anyway more rambling.
To inject feeder fish you catch the feeder in a net and hold the fish in a small part of the net. Fold the net around the fish and hold it tight, inject it through the net into it's belly. Just inject a tiny bit. The oil in a fish is about a quarter the volume of it's eye. I don't keep morays or anglerfish anymore so I have not done this in a few years. You can inject vitamins like Selcon or Cod liver oil just don't go crazy, too much of this will also probably kill your fish. I only would do this if I could not get appropriate food for a carnivore or if I wanted to get some extra vitamins into it. It is not a substitute for the fishes proper food.
If you fish in the sea you can get salt water sand worms which are used as bait. These can be frozen and fed to fish. As you know sand worms get to about a foot long and now they are about 50 cents each. You can also feed them alive but cut their head off as they can give a nasty bite to you and your fish. I would imagine that the roe of saltwater fish would be an excellent additive to food. I wouldn't feed just that as it may be too rich in oils. Fish eat whole fish along with the organs not just the organs.
I also fish and dive and the marina where my boat is full of tiny fish and shrimp. Many times I take a small net on my way home and catch some of these little vitamin packets. They don't live long in a pail but they are fed as soon as I get them home. The grass shrimp are excellent food and will live indefinately in your tank until they are eaten. The only problem with these is that they jump out if they are chased.
I have always fed these foods to my fish and never had a problem with disease.
Don't forget, I am not a Doctor, vetenarian or researcher. These are my opinions from many years of experimenting. I never read about injecting fish or the benefits of Cod liver oil or worms. The few people that wrote the books in the sixtees when I started are mostly dead now but they were the pioneers of this hobby. There was no foods specifically for salt water fish so we had to make our own. I was lucky to be born on an Island and my family was in the fish business so I always had a supply of foods.
I was also lucky to become a diver when that hobby started and I learned vastly more underwater watching fish than I could from books although I do read everything I could find. I don't however believe everything I read.
I myself published quite a few articles in aquarium magazines and other publications and what I write I believe to be true but I have no credentials and everything that I ever submitted was published without question. I could be making this stuff up. I am only stating this to show that just because you read it in a book does not make it so.
Kathy, the only list of what fish eat is in an old book written by one of those old deceased authors. The one that I have is by Robert Straughn. It was written in the early sixtees and I am sure there must be an updated list out there somewhere. We can also assume what a fish eats by it's species. If it's a tang, it needs mostly vegetable matter, If it's a carnivore it needs fish
(whole fish) butterflies are different as they all have different food preferences. You can also sometimes tell by the shape of the fish. If it has a snout like a copperband butterfly it needs small prey it finds in coral heads like worms. Copperbands will live a nice long life on almost nothing but worms. I have kept them for many years by giving them black worms almost every day.

(this next paragraph is in the wrong place, make believe it is someplace else. I can't move it for some reason :irked: )
As for those tiny fish from an Asian market, I have no Idea what they are called because no one speaks English there and the package is written in Chinese. They look like dried baby guppies about 3/8" long and have the consistancy of wood. They need to be soaked for an hour or so to use.

I spent a lot of time diving with moorish Idols and they eat mostly sponge. They will eat anything but I believe they need whatever is in sponge to be really healthy. I collect sponge locally to feed them.
Have a great day.
Crazy Guy:batangel:

 

[Bob 1000]

I know of these fish because they are always in my fridge because my wife is Asian and her parents eat a lot of things I would think of as fish food... But a lot of these items are sold with seasoning on them..I would think this would be a problem..No?? Or do you did you get yours from a place that it was not seasoned???

 

[Paul B]

Bob they don't look seasoned and I am not going to taste them but you have to soak them a while anyway so I would imagine the seasoning would be washed away.
I don't speak and Asian but maybe your wife could ask for some unseasoned fish.

JHale, I used to keep blue devils because they were just about the only salt water fish you could get in the early seventees. They were beautiful when they were first collected but their colors would fade in time. I had about 7 of them and they all looked the same with blue bodies and clear tails and fins. After about three weeks of feeding blackworms one of the fishes fins and tail also turned blue like his body. He "became" the male of the group and would spawn with the females which were usually full of eggs (which I still have pictures of somewhere.) They would lay eggs every few weeks and the male would guard the nest. They would always hatch but at that time appropriate food was not available and I did not raise them. Those blue devils lived about 8 years and that was in a tank with dead bleached corals in about 1973.
Without those worms or other similar food those fish would never spawn. They do have better food today but I have not found anything to get fish into breeding condition so fast and keep them so healthy. I don't know if it has anything to do with it and I don't want this to turn into an ich discussion but my fish also do not get ich. (here's that crazy stuff again) Don't get me wrong and don't do what I do but I do not have to quarantine. I can put fish in my tank with obvious ich and it will disappear as it has been doing for three decades, again DON'T do this. It may be that there is something in my tank that kills ich or maybe the paracites don't like what I watch on TV but you SHOULD quarantine. Don't call me and said your fish died because I told you not to quarantine.
I sometimes use bleach to purify NSW and then I eliminate the bleach. Someone called to say I told them to put Clorox in their tank and their fish died. I'm sure they did and I am sure they had a nice fresh scent too but this is really a Science and a small misunderstanding can cause big problems.
I also said to use vitamin injected fish sparingly if at all and do not use this as staple food.
We should strive to get the foods with the oils and vitamins already naturally in the food.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[prattreef]

FWIW, and I know you aren't bothered, but I have no recollection of you or your posts being regarded with anything but appreciation and respect.

Randy

 

[Paul B]

Actually this is the tank in about 1973 or so. You can see those blue devils in there as well as a few doninoes and maybe seargeant majors.
That was salt water in those days. The tank is decorated with dead coral skeletons which were bleached when algae grew.
That guy that looks just like Tom Sellick is me. I haven't changed a bit since then right down to that watchband. :lol_large

 

[cb747]

Great article Paul and youve changed just a wee bit LOL

 

[Paul B]

Chris, well maybe just a little but I think I look almost the same. Especially the hair
:thrash:

 

[KathyC]

I'm still looking for the pic of Tim Selleck...

Great info Paul!!

 

[Paul B]

I'm still looking for the pic of Tim Selleck...

I thought he was my twin, the only difference is that he is about a foot taller than me, has hair, and looks like Tom Sellic and I kind of look like... well...me.

He is my wife's favorite so I tell her we are twins

 

[cb747]

Hair where? :biglaugh:

 

[Paul B]

Chris, how is your tank doing? I am in a gobi and bleeny mode. I am trying to get all sorts of wierd smaller fish. I have wanted to do this for years but I always had the common angels, butterflies tangs etc. There is only so many of those that you can have, now I want the unusual.
I still hatch brine every day in my homemade hatchery and I have found a way to keep blackworms indefinately without putting them in the fridge. I doubt my wife would let me put them there anyway. She works out more than I do.
I retired so maybe this year we can get some people out on my boat on a collecting trip for animals and food. I have been diving in the Sound for 40 years so I think I know most of the places.
I know of one place to collect large mantis shrimp, about 6". But you have to dive there at night to get them. I also know great places for amphipods.
Anyway, it looks like no one has any more comments so have a great day.
Paul

 

[cb747]

My tank is having issues. I have a bad bubble algae outbreak. I also am upgrading to a larger tank and got the rock that came with it that im killing off slime algae on before i use it. Im also battling flatworms which ill take care of just before i swap out the tank.
Id love to go collecting with you in the spring. We never made it last year. I think by now you know everyplace in the sound to collect! If you need a hand with the boat in the spring let me know too. I have lots of vacation time Ill have to come by soon and check out your tank

 

[Killerdrgn]

So how do you keep black worms indefinitly?

 

[Paul B]

I keep them in about an inch of water in a two gallon tank with an airstone. I don't clean the sides or bottom of the tank so a bacterial slime grows there to process wastes. I feed the worms pellets, some cheap coral food and Selcon. They are fat and have a nice color. I never find a dead one. I rarely have to change their water due to cloudyness but I try to change it about once a week. I have been keeping these worms almost all of my life and I used to have a smelly mess in a couple of days. I tried worm keepers and keeping them in the fridge but for the last few years I think I have it down pat.