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marrone

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what exactly is hypo?
yes i do run filter socks
yes he does sleep under a rock next to my cleaner shrimp, though i will try and get him out tonight

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/pests/99516-ich.html

Hyposalinity is a very effective treatment for parasitic conditions such as Marine "Ich" (Cryptocaryon irritans.) and can also be used to lower stress in fish.
What is Hyposalinity?
Hyposalinity is adjusting the salinity of the water to somewhat less the that of natural sea water. For the treatment to be effective the salinity needs to be lowered to 12-14? which is equivalent to a specific gravity of 1.009 (d20/20) at normal tank temperatures (26-28?C - 79-82?F). Normal sea water has a salinity of 35? (Gross, 1977).

How does it work?

For the treatment of "Ich", hyposalinity works by breaking the life cycle of the parasite. The lower salinity may also reduce stress, although there is no hard evidence to date to support this. C. irritans is a ciliate protozoan found in sea water and it has a number of stages in its life cycle. Infective stages burrow into the skin and gills of the fish and form a protective outer covering of skin. Here they feed on tissue fluids and skin and grow. When mature, the parasite breaks out of the cyst and after some time as a free-swimming form encysts on any suitable substrate such as the sand or rocks and divides many times to produce the infective forms (Colorni, 1987). The infective forms must find a suitable host or they will die.

The total time from the mature parasite detaching from the fish and reinfection of the fish is about 2 weeks at normal tank temperatures. This is why "Ich" may appear to clear up but then comes back a a week or so later but a lot worse. The low salinity causes the most of the tomonts to rupture, killing them Marine teleost fish (higher bony fishes) maintain their osmotic concentration at about one quarter to one third that of sea water. In normal sea water, these fish have a tendency to lose water from their gills due to osmosis and also in their urine. Fish have to drink a lot of water to make up for the loss, however, as the water contains a lot of salt (35?) they must remove the excess salt from their system. The sodium and chloride ions are secreted by the gills and magnesium and sulphates are excreted in urine. This is an active process and requires energy much like the energy required to keep warm blooded animals warm.
When fish are under stress, one of the processes that is affected is ion regulation. This means they have difficulty adjusting the concentration of ions (sodium, chloride, etc.). Lowering the salinity of the tank water makes the concentration of ions closer to that of the fish"s internal fluids and reduces the fish"s efforts to maintain the correct concentrations.
Please note that only the higher bony fishes have lower osmotic concentrations and can be treated this way. Marine invertebrates have the same osmotic concentration as the surrounding water (Schmidt-Nielsen, 1975) and if left in the aquarium during hyposalinity treatment are most likely to die due to osmotic shock. Sharks and rays may not survive hyposalinity due to their unique method of osmoregulation. They have similar concentrations of salts to that of marine teleosts (one quarter to one third that of sea water), however, they also have very high concentrations of organic compounds which gives their internal fluids the same osmotic concentration as sea water. While some can adjust to lower salinities, most will succumb to osmotic shock just like invertebrates.

Where do you treat?

The first choice you must make is whether to treat in the main display tank or in a quarantine tank. The main display tank can be treated if it is "Fish Only" and contains no invertebrates or live rock. The live rock itself will survive the treatment, but any invertebrates living on and in it will be killed. If the tank is truly "Fish Only" treating the tanks is probably the best option as there will be less stress to the inhabitants and it helps you to eliminate the "Ich" in the main tank. If the main display tank is "Fish Only With Live Rock", it may be possible to move the live rock to another tank and treat the main tank, but in most cases and when the tank is "Reef" tank, removing the fish to a quarantine tank is the only option. At that point you want to leave the display tank empty of fish for 6 - 8 weeks, at which point the Ich will have died off, as it wouldn't be able to find a host to live on.

When a quarantine tank is to be used, it is wise to fill the quarantine tank with water from the main tank when the fish to be treated are moved. This will help reduce the stress of the move and alleviate the acclimation process. It may still be necessary to acclimate the fish if time has passed from when the water was transferred and the fish are transferred.

How do you treat?

It is very important that you can accurately measure the salinity or specific gravity of the water. Cheap hydrometers, especially the swinging arm variety, do not have enough accuracy. If the salinity is too high, it may have no affect on the parasites, as discussed above. A refractometer is the safest method for measuring salinity. The goal is to granularly reduce the salinity of the water to between 12 and 14? and leave it at that salinity for at least 4 weeks but preferably 6 weeks. Basically continue the treatment for at least 4 weeks after the last spots disappeared. The salinity must be lowered gradually to give the fish time to adjust to the lower salinity and more importantly ensures the bacteria in the biological filter can adjust. It should take around 2 days to get from 35? to 14?. Your starting point should be between 1.025 and 1.027. Replace about one fifth of the volume with RO, RO/DI or aged freshwater that has been well aerated. Repeat this 12, 24 and 36 hours later, monitoring the specific gravity along the way. After the fourth water change the specific gravity should be 1.010 or pretty close. Wait a few hours to make the final adjustment to get down to 1.009. Note that you can estimate the resulting specific gravity. If you are changing one fifth of the water and the current specific gravity is 1.025 the result will be:
  • ((1.025*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.020 approx.
Then, after 12 hours:
  • ((1.020*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.016 approx.
After 24 hours:
  • ((1.016*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.013 approx.
After the 4th change:
  • ((1.013*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.010 approx.
Water temperature influences specific gravity and if you heat water without changing the salinity the specific gravity will decrease. As the goal is to keep the salinity between 12 and 14? it is important to know the temperature as well as the specific gravity. What temperature should you use? Some people have argued that raising the temperature is good because it speeds up the life cycle of the parasite. While this is true, the elevated temperature also raises the metabolic rate of the fish causing increased oxygen and energy consumption and somewhat negating the benefits of the hyposalinity. Temperatures close to "normal", those the fish are used to, will be the best. Ensure the temperature is taken into consideration for the specific gravity.

While the fish are being treated it is extremely important to closely monitor the pH and specific gravity. Unless you are treating in a well established tank with an established biological filter there will be a tendency for the pH to drop and this must be monitored. This can also happen in an establish tank due to the lower salinity. If the pH starts to drop, water should be changed or buffer very carefully added to the system. If the fish are sick, too rapid changes in pH will not be beneficial. The specific gravity also must be monitored as excessive evaporation will cause the salinity to rise and possibly create suitable conditions for the free swimming parasite. If the salinity does rise, it may be necessary to extend the length of the treatment after the salinity has been lowered again. For this reason I like to drop the salinity to 1.008.

Hyposalinity should be maintained for at least 4 weeks but 6 weeks is preferable. If there is any reinfection of the "Ich" during the treatment, the treatment should be extended to at least 4 weeks after you see the last white spot on the fish.

When the treatment is complete, the salinity should be raised gradually to normal over a number of days. Water changes with normal or even high salinity water is the easiest way to get the salinity up. Calculations using averages, as before, can be used to determine the appropriate specific gravity of the replacement water. If you replace one sixth of the 1.009 water with water at 1.025, the specific gravity will be raised to 1.012:
  • ((1.009*5)+1.025)/6 = 1.012 approx.
As the salinity approaches normal it will be necessary to either replace more water in each change or use water with a higher than normal salinity. If you have been treating in a quarantine tank, you will need to leave the display tank with no fish in it for at least 6-8 weeks. This will ensures that all remaining parasites in the tank have gone through their full life cycle and the infective forms have died. If you have been treating in the display tank, you should wait some time before returning any invertebrates or live rock to ensure that the biological filter has had time to adjust to the salinity and load.

Warnings
Corals, Invertebrates, sharks and rays cannot tolerate low salinity and should be removed from the tank.
  • Temperature affects specific gravity and must be considered.
  • Ph can drop during treatment and must be monitored.
Summary
  • Isolate the fish from any coral, invertebrates or sharks and rays
  • Lower the salinity to 12-14? (specific gravity: 1.009 @ 27?C) over a 72 hour period
  • Closely monitor the Ph and specific gravity
  • Do regular water changes with low salinity water
  • Keep the salinity at 12-14? (specific gravity: 1.009 @ 27?C) for 4-6 weeks, or at least 4 weeks after the last disappearance of the "Ich".
  • Raise the salinity to normal over a 3-7 day period.
  • Leave an untreated display tank fishless for at least 6-8 weeks.
 

marrone

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Marrone, Answer this... In the ocean fish get Parasites and sick correct. So do they all die or some one has to treat that sick fish so he has a chance to live. Fish immune system and stress plays a big role in the health of fish. The difference of him surviving or not.

There is a big different between the Ocean and a small tank, where fish don't have any where to go and get reinfected over and over again, as the concentration of Ich and parasites is very heavy. In the Ocean the parasites drops off and the fish aren't reinfected, or reinfected only to a certain level that they can handle. There are also cleaning stations where parasites are removed, something that you can't duplicate in your home tank. That an you also have a lot of filter feeders, which does help remove some of the parasites out of the water, something that does also happen in reef tanks, as with corals and other filter feeders, not to mention filter sock, help remove some parasites out of the water, keep the levels lower where some fish can live with the Ich or parasite. And even with all that in the Ocean you still do have fish that die from parasites and infections.

Stress does play an important part in a fish health but once again stress doesn't cause a fish to get Ich. A fish can be heavily stressed out and if Ich isn't present it's not going to get it, and the flip side is a perfectly healthy fish, non-stressed out, get Ich and died from it. Not to mention some variations on Ich are very deadly and kill very fast.
 

marrone

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Actually I mention it above, see post #24. The problem with it is you need to have the tanks setup, or water ready, plus you could transfer Ich from one tank to another when you move the fish. If you already have the fish in a separate tank then either Hypo or copper would probably be the better way to go at that point. I would use the transfer method if you have a very delicate fish and you don't want to use Hypo or copper.
 

lnevo

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LMFAO another Ich thread and all the experts come out lol



Ask Paul B how he handles Ich lol



Sorry I just had to add my 2cents



Carry on:argue:


Thanks! You just reminded me to feed the blackworms I bought yesterday!

Actually I mention it above, see post #24. The problem with it is you need to have the tanks setup, or water ready, plus you could transfer Ich from one tank to another when you move the fish. If you already have the fish in a separate tank then either Hypo or copper would probably be the better way to go at that point. I would use the transfer method if you have a very delicate fish and you don't want to use Hypo or copper.


Transferring ich is normal during the transfer method which is why you do it multiple times and try and do it in the morning when they fall off (sorry forget the stage) and I was speaking more to those arguing against hypo and/or copper. Sorry I missed the mention...long thread and long posts.

Personally I think we misdiagnose ich a lot. Some claim its the deadliest thing in the world and others claim to live with it just fine. If you can you should QT at least (not talking about treatment) and if you can't be prepared to lose everything in your tank. I think well fed happy fish can definitely make it through an infection as I'm fairly confident I have some in my tank, and strangely everyone is doing pretty darn well.
 

marrone

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Yes, we do misdiagnose Ich quite a bite, as a lot of other diseases or parasites produce the same kind of symptoms as Ich does. There are also different strains of Ich, some which are very deadly and kill very fast while others which seem not to be as deadly. You see a lot of people that have Hippo Tangs come down with what looks like Ich, but no other fish in the tank comes down with it, so you really need to wonder if it is even Ich or just something that has the same symptoms as Ich or maybe even just a type of Ich that only attacks Hippo Tangs.
 

oh207

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Fun read. A lot of the treatments have already been discussed and debated. Here is my take and experience.
To answer the OP question, there are 3 know methods to get rid of ich from a fish. Hyposalinity, copper, and tank transfer method. None of these should be tried in a reef. Hyposalinity in a range of 1.008 to 1.009 is needed to be successful. All corals will die from such a low salinity. And if they don't die from low salinity they will certainly die from the ammonia produced from the die off of other corals.
Copper in a reef will KILL all inverts and corals. And tank transfer, well obviously speaks for itself. You need 2-3 tanks to accomplish this method.
Now those are the 3 methods to "get rid" of ich from a fish.
In order to "get rid" of ich from the DT it must be left fishless (fallow) for 12 weeks or 3 months. There is some debate on the length of time required. But essentially the time is needed for the ich to go through the various life cycle stages and die off because there is no host fish for it to attach to in order to complete the next stage and eventually fall off and reproduce again.
Whichever method you choose, good luck.
I've tried both copper and hypo. I have not tried tank transfer due to space and time constraints. Hypo for me is the easiest but it doesn't always work. I have a dedicated QT with an ATO and have had a blue hippo in hypo for 8 weeks now and he still have ich. Salinity never budge from 1.008. I've tried hypo with metro, hypo with cupramine, and now hypo with Chloroquine phosphate (CP). Hypo and copper has worked for me in the past, but doesn't seem to be doing the trick this time.
One thing is for sure, that hippo is not going anywhere near my DT if I can't cure/rid it of ich.
 

oh207

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Yes, we do misdiagnose Ich quite a bite, as a lot of other diseases or parasites produce the same kind of symptoms as Ich does. There are also different strains of Ich, some which are very deadly and kill very fast while others which seem not to be as deadly. You see a lot of people that have Hippo Tangs come down with what looks like Ich, but no other fish in the tank comes down with it, so you really need to wonder if it is even Ich or just something that has the same symptoms as Ich or maybe even just a type of Ich that only attacks Hippo Tangs.

I wonder if this is my situation at the moment...
 

coralcruze

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Stress does play an important part in a fish health but once again stress doesn't cause a fish to get Ich.

oxymor*n... like saying the fish got ich and died but ich didn't kill it. "cruel kindness" right? lol

If you agree that stress does play an important part in fish health, wouldn't that mean that the fish is therefor more susceptible in getting ich? no one said that stress causes ich. we all agree that ich is a parasite that will attach to a host. however if the fish is stressed and the parasite is not than parasite attaches and sucks its blood. If the fish is not stressed than its defenses may be enough to thwart the attachment of the parasite. its not rocket science. :dead1:
 

marrone

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Stress does play an important part in a fish health but once again stress doesn't cause a fish to get Ich.

oxymor*n... like saying the fish got ich and died but ich didn't kill it. "cruel kindness" right? lol

If you agree that stress does play an important part in fish health, wouldn't that mean that the fish is therefor more susceptible in getting ich? no one said that stress causes ich. we all agree that ich is a parasite that will attach to a host. however if the fish is stressed and the parasite is not than parasite attaches and sucks its blood. If the fish is not stressed than its defenses may be enough to thwart the attachment of the parasite. its not rocket science. :dead1:

One doesn't have anything to do with the other. Do you understand that Ich is a parasite and not a virus? Do you understand that if there isn't any Ich in the tank that a fish can't get it, no matter who stress out the fish is. Also, if Ich is present in the tank a fish can get it, regardless if it's stressed out or not. Healthy, non-stressed out, fish get Ich all the time, and also die from it. You really don't understand what you're talking about, which is probably why you still have Ich in your tank.
 

coralcruze

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One doesn't have anything to do with the other. Do you understand that Ich is a parasite and not a virus? Do you understand that if there isn't any Ich in the tank that a fish can't get it, no matter who stress out the fish is. Also, if Ich is present in the tank a fish can get it, regardless if it's stressed out or not. Healthy, non-stressed out, fish get Ich all the time, and also die from it. You really don't understand what you're talking about, which is probably why you still have Ich in your tank.


actually it is you that doesn't know what you are talking about. but dont take my word for it... read!!!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5123

post #8
post #14
post #16
post #25
and soooo many others in the link.

Stress does play an important part in a fish health but once again stress doesn't cause a fish to get Ich.
 
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marrone

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Thanks I needed a good laugh. That thread isn't even in this decade. Face it, your advise is very bad and you really don't have a clue about what you're talking about. The only reason I'm responding to your posts is all the bad info that you're putting out and I don't want to people to take it as being correct, which it isn't.

And at this point I'm done feeding the trolls.
 
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coralcruze

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we are debating a parasite that has existed in nature for hundreds if not thousands of years. so 10 or even 20 years is not nearly the skin of teeth here on this subject.

If you want to say that stress has nothing to do with negative immune response or the ability to fight parasites its simply wrong.

I never argued with your method of QT and actually what I use but to say that Ich is not in your tank when it probably exists in the majority of our tanks comes off as arrogant. sorry.
 

marrone

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Once again, you've put out nothing but bad advise, part from a lack of understanding and part from what you've read. Once again I don't want people to take what you're posted as being correct.

Unfortunately I didn't listen to myself and I keep feeding the troll, but that will stop now.
 

ducati335i

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Once again, you've put out nothing but bad advise, part from a lack of understanding and part from what you've read. Once again I don't want people to take what you're posted as being correct.

Unfortunately I didn't listen to myself and I keep feeding the troll, but that will stop now.

lol.. thats great! ya.. i stopped too.. not worth it... good luck to the op keep us updated
 

coralcruze

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Yeah, I just didn't know when to quit. LOL

The most important thing is to QT all your fish, as the best method to fight Ich or other diseases in your tank is to not introduce them in the first place.

I can agree with the first part 100% :)

I also agree with the second but its questionable if this can actually be achieved. The best QT is NO FISH and in time your reef will not have any Ich.
 

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