Caribe Sea company busted!!!
- Thread starter prattreef
- Start date
Hi all,
I can't say that I find this terribly surprising. In a largely unregulated industry where regular practices include cyanide fishing, live coral dyeing and massive shipping mortality, I would think this is par for the course.
That being said this could clearly have been an oversight on the company's part, trade and customs laws can be byzantine, but somehow I think they would have known about the laws.
Its the wild west out there.
E
I can't say that I find this terribly surprising. In a largely unregulated industry where regular practices include cyanide fishing, live coral dyeing and massive shipping mortality, I would think this is par for the course.
That being said this could clearly have been an oversight on the company's part, trade and customs laws can be byzantine, but somehow I think they would have known about the laws.
Its the wild west out there.
E
Alfred,
I am not so sure about that. I definitely agree that the volume of damage is on a different scale but I think the hobby trade definitely carries the risk of damage to our environment. Because big industry, infrastruture development, poorly managed human waste, etc. are so much more damaging, we tend to think of our hobby as a drop in the bucket and trivialize it.
If you think of all of the wild corals, fish, liverock, etc. a reefer with a medium sized tank (65-90g) goes through in a year and multiply that by all of the reefers in the world (not to mention the stuff that dies en route), I just can't imagine that not having an impact. We have over a thousand members in this area alone, in addition to the rest of the country, not to mention the diehards in Europe.
Overall, I think the regulations are valid and relevant to managing the environments of various areas.
E
I am not so sure about that. I definitely agree that the volume of damage is on a different scale but I think the hobby trade definitely carries the risk of damage to our environment. Because big industry, infrastruture development, poorly managed human waste, etc. are so much more damaging, we tend to think of our hobby as a drop in the bucket and trivialize it.
If you think of all of the wild corals, fish, liverock, etc. a reefer with a medium sized tank (65-90g) goes through in a year and multiply that by all of the reefers in the world (not to mention the stuff that dies en route), I just can't imagine that not having an impact. We have over a thousand members in this area alone, in addition to the rest of the country, not to mention the diehards in Europe.
Overall, I think the regulations are valid and relevant to managing the environments of various areas.
E
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:hug:
- Location
- Huntington
They may have had to pay "small" fines as the company and individuals and write the articles explaining what they did and why it was wrong, but that isn't the big punishment. Carib Sea is a huge supplier of live sand and other substrates. Their name is now destroyed and I doubt it will take long for this news to spread amongst hobbyists. I know I will be telling everyone I know and no longer purchase their products myself. The act of them writing the article is to show the public that they screwed up and make it as public as possible among those people who can effect them.
- Location
- Upper West Side
I think we are over estimating the damage our hobby does. We are a relatively small group of hobbyists and the damage done is miniscule. Obviously there are examples of specific species of fish or coral that have been over collected. But CITES for the most part keeps it under control (Do a search on Bangai Cardinal's, fox corals, etc). One thing I would love to see better regulated is the collection of clownfish and anemones from the wild. My understanding is that this has the potential of becoming a problem.
As for live rock, I just dont see how it can have any effect on the reef ecosystem. Most liverock is not even collected on reefs! Even if it were, pieces that are acceptable for reef aquariums are too small to sustain coral growth in the wild.
-Alfred
As for live rock, I just dont see how it can have any effect on the reef ecosystem. Most liverock is not even collected on reefs! Even if it were, pieces that are acceptable for reef aquariums are too small to sustain coral growth in the wild.
-Alfred
- Location
- Huntington
ummm where are you getting your information from? I'll call it "flawed" at best. Also, being in the business I can tell you that CITES permits in most regions are incredibly corrupt and a lot of the collection stations ignore the caps set for them. About a year ago the red sea was almost shut down for about a month when the governing body there decided to make the permits regional. So, instead of paying just the head guy there you then had to find whatever chief was in the region you were collecting in and pay him as well. Plus everyone was over-collecting and they were getting pressured to crack down. This hobby is more destructive than most would give it credit for. It isn't the law abiding companies that are doing the damage, it's the companies that go out and knowingly collect 42,000 lbs of protected LR or the station that collects undersized angels, tangs, sharks, etc. Educate yourself and make purchases from companies that are reputable. If you have made it to this website I'd like to think you are involved enough to want to know what goes on. These fish and inverts don't just appear in the backroom of your favorite store.
- Location
- Upper West Side
Properly collecting fish is not a problem. Cianide (Which recent studies show actually does not harm the reef itself), over collecting of specific species (again, observations in the field show that local populations get affected for a finite time) and using dynamite to "mine" liverock are all harmful to some degree or another.
But 40,000 LBS. of liverock would not even fill an entire container! We are talking about a renewable resource that is available in abundance.
I forget which country in the South Pacific (Fiji?) actually CUT UP coral reefs and used the blocks to build their roads! THAT is quantifiable harm. But what is the maximum amount of liverock collected for the aquarium trade? 2 million pounds over the past 10 years? The proverbial drop in the bucket.
Irresponsible collecting HAS caused harm. As is the case with anemone and clownfish populations and seahorses. (Seahorses were overfished primarily for their proported medicinal value) ANY collection of SPS in the Caribbean would be harmful at this point because the reefs are dying as a consequence of mans other "contributions".
My only point is that liverock is not an issue and I find it rediculous that they go after people for collecting rock AND livesand in US waters these days. I know someone that had his boat confiscated for taking a bucket of SAND!
-Alfred
But 40,000 LBS. of liverock would not even fill an entire container! We are talking about a renewable resource that is available in abundance.
I forget which country in the South Pacific (Fiji?) actually CUT UP coral reefs and used the blocks to build their roads! THAT is quantifiable harm. But what is the maximum amount of liverock collected for the aquarium trade? 2 million pounds over the past 10 years? The proverbial drop in the bucket.
Irresponsible collecting HAS caused harm. As is the case with anemone and clownfish populations and seahorses. (Seahorses were overfished primarily for their proported medicinal value) ANY collection of SPS in the Caribbean would be harmful at this point because the reefs are dying as a consequence of mans other "contributions".
My only point is that liverock is not an issue and I find it rediculous that they go after people for collecting rock AND livesand in US waters these days. I know someone that had his boat confiscated for taking a bucket of SAND!
-Alfred
Can you provide more information on this? :scratch: I'd like to read those studies.
That sounds good in theory, but most around here are more for low price than they are for reputable companies, which charge more.
As an example, Absolutely Fish in NJ is the only LFS I know of that has MAC certified fish, reliable coral resources which are tracked, to include store water quality, yet when someone asked about a good LFS and I mentioned AF, it didn't take 3 minutes for someone to call them overpriced. I'm not saying AF is perfect and I know the MAC thing has it's own flaws as well, but they are trying harder than anywhere else I can think of and I'll pay more for it. But all it comes down to is price.
Whatever, dude. A little dramatic. They'll drop their prices and the hobbyists will return in droves. You're giving too much credit.
I tend to agree with this, but our hobby is damaging, none the less. But at the same time, we can't take this:
as an example. Look at the more experienced guys on the site... they probably haven't taken anything out of the wild in years. I haven't gotten a wild coral or piece of LR in over 7 years. Most of us get coral from one another. The burden really falls on sellers who take and sell stuff which have a horrible survival rate and beginners who buy them, as well as anything else they are not equipped to keep. And yeah, let's not forget, because it's cheap. The beginners will be less likely to experiment with something expensive.
Have you seen the latest issue of FAMA? I had to dig through my midget porn to find it, but the back cover is priceless.
It starts with the headline in bold print:
You could get it yourself... but why?
Under that is a picture of a scuba divers fins sticking out of the water like he's diving down. Anyway, it goes on to say New Ocean Direct (literally) Real Caribbean Live Sand in a Breathable Bag... millions of bacteria... blah, blah, blah.
www.carib-sea.com
All they have to do is throw the word miracle in there (or "vitalizing") and they'll get half their base back.
(I didn't mean to post that link... I just wanted to show it was a caribsea advertisement)
It starts with the headline in bold print:
You could get it yourself... but why?
Under that is a picture of a scuba divers fins sticking out of the water like he's diving down. Anyway, it goes on to say New Ocean Direct (literally) Real Caribbean Live Sand in a Breathable Bag... millions of bacteria... blah, blah, blah.
www.carib-sea.com
All they have to do is throw the word miracle in there (or "vitalizing") and they'll get half their base back.
(I didn't mean to post that link... I just wanted to show it was a caribsea advertisement)
I didn't know they have "chiefs" in and around the Red Sea, you are not thinking of Fiji and Tonga?
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:lol: Chief..
Alfredo, most roads in the small pacific island nations uses crushed coral as a base, and cement are made there with local coral rocks too. They have more dead coral\live rock than they know what to do with, about the only thing they have in abundance.
Alfredo, most roads in the small pacific island nations uses crushed coral as a base, and cement are made there with local coral rocks too. They have more dead coral\live rock than they know what to do with, about the only thing they have in abundance.
Chris,
Good points. But I am not really referring to the more experienced folks on the site, in my belief they are the minority. The majority of the reefers from what I have seen are relatively new to the hobby (a few years) and do a lot of shopping in LFS and online vendors. As far as not having gotten wild coral in over 7 years, I would assume that you do not order from any of our vendors (House/Russ, Ronen, etc.) because they all order wild colonies. In addition, I would assume many colonies that are for sale by members originated in the wild and are just being resold, of course some of them will be propagated but I have a feeling, if we ask, we will find that many were bought as wild colonies.
Overall, although the example I provided was a simplistic one, I believe it holds water just to get an idea of what kind of scale we are talking about.
E
Good points. But I am not really referring to the more experienced folks on the site, in my belief they are the minority. The majority of the reefers from what I have seen are relatively new to the hobby (a few years) and do a lot of shopping in LFS and online vendors. As far as not having gotten wild coral in over 7 years, I would assume that you do not order from any of our vendors (House/Russ, Ronen, etc.) because they all order wild colonies. In addition, I would assume many colonies that are for sale by members originated in the wild and are just being resold, of course some of them will be propagated but I have a feeling, if we ask, we will find that many were bought as wild colonies.
Overall, although the example I provided was a simplistic one, I believe it holds water just to get an idea of what kind of scale we are talking about.
E
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Allfred,
Apologies if I misunderstood, I thought you were referring to liverock and coral collection. From what I am reading here, I think everyone believes there is the potential for damage. I just would caution against using the damage done by larger efforts as a benchmark for defining what is damaging to our environment. Just because it is a different scale of damage doesn't mean that we are not hurting the environment too.
Regarding your friend with the bucket of sand, that sounds excessive but the regulations themselves, if they work, I think make sense.
As a side note, when liverock is harvested from the ocean aren't corals that encrust, sea mats, etc harvested at the same time? I am not familiar with the process.
E
Apologies if I misunderstood, I thought you were referring to liverock and coral collection. From what I am reading here, I think everyone believes there is the potential for damage. I just would caution against using the damage done by larger efforts as a benchmark for defining what is damaging to our environment. Just because it is a different scale of damage doesn't mean that we are not hurting the environment too.
Regarding your friend with the bucket of sand, that sounds excessive but the regulations themselves, if they work, I think make sense.
As a side note, when liverock is harvested from the ocean aren't corals that encrust, sea mats, etc harvested at the same time? I am not familiar with the process.
E
- Location
- Flushing NY 11355
Looks like they were talking about price at Florida not NY. Those numbers reflects retail prices in California/Florida.
You can get a 40 pound box of CaribSea dry rocks for $55 in LFS here in NY
http://www.pets-warehouse.com/Vpasp/shopexd.asp?id=130792
- Location
- Huntington
I would also like to see the reports that show Cyanide fishing is negligible in the damage it deals to the reef.
Yes, I am 100% talking about the red sea and not tonga or fiji. The red sea borders Saudi Arabia and north eastern africa. Since when are those areas no longer "tribal"?
Yes, fish are techniquely a replenishable resource but replenishible is a broad and relative term when used with them. Yes, they will over time reproduce and possibly come back. With the current collection numbers though it hampers their population comeback in some areas. If we are taking 70,000 fish a month of a certain species from a certain area and they are only producing 350 - 450,000 offspring a month how long will it take to deplete their numbers?
I can't say whether or not a store uses MAC certified suppliers or not, they tend not to share their sources easily lol. I can tell you though that there are more MAC certified suppliers popping up and our 2 top suppliers at AA are certified. Our main stopped labeling the individual fish because so many they get are now certified. The other has several pages of certified or aquacultured fish as well. So, at any given time I would say as much as 75% of my livestock is certified.
Trust me when I say that I do not agree with AAs pricing and that it has no bearing on what I am about to say. A lot of the people here do tend to be swayed by cheaper pricing and that is a shame when it comes to this hobby in regards to livestock. MAC livestock tends to be more expensive just because of the care taken in their handling and aquacultured costs more because it costs money to grow (not to mention a pain in the ass with some of the fish). I don't know who here "goes through fish and coral" but if you can't keep anything alive you need to take a good look at how you set your tank up, your husbandry regimen, and where you are getting your fish because something is seriously wrong. 7 years of no wild livestock is entirely possible but I think something of a stretch, but the point is no less right.
Liverock is normally collected from rubble zones because it is just easier that way. Sometimes it is cut from the reef and this liverock is easily identified because you can see the white area which was not exposed prior. A lot of the larger suppliers just use the rubble because it's easier and ultimately looks better since it doesn't have large white areas on it.
Yes, I am 100% talking about the red sea and not tonga or fiji. The red sea borders Saudi Arabia and north eastern africa. Since when are those areas no longer "tribal"?
Yes, fish are techniquely a replenishable resource but replenishible is a broad and relative term when used with them. Yes, they will over time reproduce and possibly come back. With the current collection numbers though it hampers their population comeback in some areas. If we are taking 70,000 fish a month of a certain species from a certain area and they are only producing 350 - 450,000 offspring a month how long will it take to deplete their numbers?
I can't say whether or not a store uses MAC certified suppliers or not, they tend not to share their sources easily lol. I can tell you though that there are more MAC certified suppliers popping up and our 2 top suppliers at AA are certified. Our main stopped labeling the individual fish because so many they get are now certified. The other has several pages of certified or aquacultured fish as well. So, at any given time I would say as much as 75% of my livestock is certified.
Trust me when I say that I do not agree with AAs pricing and that it has no bearing on what I am about to say. A lot of the people here do tend to be swayed by cheaper pricing and that is a shame when it comes to this hobby in regards to livestock. MAC livestock tends to be more expensive just because of the care taken in their handling and aquacultured costs more because it costs money to grow (not to mention a pain in the ass with some of the fish). I don't know who here "goes through fish and coral" but if you can't keep anything alive you need to take a good look at how you set your tank up, your husbandry regimen, and where you are getting your fish because something is seriously wrong. 7 years of no wild livestock is entirely possible but I think something of a stretch, but the point is no less right.
Liverock is normally collected from rubble zones because it is just easier that way. Sometimes it is cut from the reef and this liverock is easily identified because you can see the white area which was not exposed prior. A lot of the larger suppliers just use the rubble because it's easier and ultimately looks better since it doesn't have large white areas on it.
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