Check out this awesome copy of a Deltec Ap1004
- Thread starter TimberTDI
- Start date
definitely an exaggeration on my part to make a point, but i am pretty sure there are acrylic tubes for around 50 to 200 for the 2 ft length. i was just trying to make make a point that the price of skimmers to be rediculous, when alot of what is driving it is just supply/demand and hype. how someone can spend 1600 on the parts shown is beyond me. matter of fact i will call julio and get a price quote on the 8 inch by 2ft tube i saw. if he quotes over 300 bucks i will eat my words.
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1/8" wall 12" dia cast acrylic tube: $65 per foot
1/4" " " " " " " : $138 per foot
BTW, with exception of very few places, you cannot buy just 2 or 3 feet. You have to buy a 6 foot length. Which is why I have leftover material.
The guy who made this deltec mod used 20" diameter tube. 8 inch wouldn't make a nice diffuser for his skimmer.
I agree that a lot of it is about hype. But these materials are expensive. Along with the cost of fabricating cones, twist fit necks, etc. This guy got a skimmer for $1600 that would have cost $5000 had he bought it from Deltec. Keep in mind that I am including the cost of the wet neck.
chris
1/4" " " " " " " : $138 per foot
BTW, with exception of very few places, you cannot buy just 2 or 3 feet. You have to buy a 6 foot length. Which is why I have leftover material.
The guy who made this deltec mod used 20" diameter tube. 8 inch wouldn't make a nice diffuser for his skimmer.
I agree that a lot of it is about hype. But these materials are expensive. Along with the cost of fabricating cones, twist fit necks, etc. This guy got a skimmer for $1600 that would have cost $5000 had he bought it from Deltec. Keep in mind that I am including the cost of the wet neck.
chris
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The $1600 he spent includes custom CNC mill work on the quick disconnect fitting (which he must gotten a discount on), four pumps, plumbing fitting, etc.. these items are not cheap..
12" dia cast acrylic tubes are NOT cheap..
12" dia cast acrylic tubes are NOT cheap..
That's a pretty bold statement. I am sure it is a great skimmer and all. But is there any proof of them outperforming Deltec and Bubble King? I am not trying to start an argument, I am genuinely intruiged.
Wes, Aquabee's pull in 7 LPM of air. These skimmers are pulling in over 20-25 LPM of air per pump, not to mention the MUCH smaller bubbles. A simple modification of my Euro-reef is outperforming any Deltec I've ever seen. Yes, you can make this same mod to a deltec, but I paid $400 for better performance than guys are getting with their $750-$1000 skimmers (costs would be rated to same size tank).
I will admit full on and up front. I'm biased against Deltec. BK, I think has a great product, I just don't like their pump. Deltec and BK are the best needle wheel skimmers on the market, but there are many built just as good and I've never seen a Deltec perform at twice the price of other skimmers. I feel Deltec are by far the most overpriced and overrated skimmers out there and I've seen more than enough of them in action. Say all you want about Red Dragon. They are far too delicate. The money saved on them in lower wattage will never make up for cost since they will need to be replaced more often and they are soooo expensive. Ask Mike (Slamajama) about this. He'll prove it to you.
Wes, I don't feel you were trying to argue, and I hope you don't feel that I'm shooting back. All I'm saying is that the statement can be backed up. Keeping in mind cost, quality, and most of all performance, these skimmers are better. Twice as good for 1/5th the price. So far mine is around $700 for something that would have been $4500 from BK.
I will admit full on and up front. I'm biased against Deltec. BK, I think has a great product, I just don't like their pump. Deltec and BK are the best needle wheel skimmers on the market, but there are many built just as good and I've never seen a Deltec perform at twice the price of other skimmers. I feel Deltec are by far the most overpriced and overrated skimmers out there and I've seen more than enough of them in action. Say all you want about Red Dragon. They are far too delicate. The money saved on them in lower wattage will never make up for cost since they will need to be replaced more often and they are soooo expensive. Ask Mike (Slamajama) about this. He'll prove it to you.
Wes, I don't feel you were trying to argue, and I hope you don't feel that I'm shooting back. All I'm saying is that the statement can be backed up. Keeping in mind cost, quality, and most of all performance, these skimmers are better. Twice as good for 1/5th the price. So far mine is around $700 for something that would have been $4500 from BK.
i wouldnt say that completely chris, i kinda smashed the RD pump couple of times and then put it back together with half the screws it needs. It's not RD pump's fault. It pulls in 30LPM stock which isnt bad for 60 watts. this mesh material is good, but you have to understand when it's pulling int hat much air and upt he amount of wattage we dont know what it's doing to the pumps. Right now all this DIY is experimental. We dont know the wear and tears of this stuff. maintance is diffrent as well, so i dont wanna brag about the material. Deltec and BK pumps were tested vigriously before being put into the market. Where as we are slaping on a peice of foam calling it high performance.
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yeah but you gotta chill out and saying deltecs and BKs are nothing. They are reliable IMO.
I never questioned reliability. If you read my post, I said Deltec and BK are the best needle wheel skimmers on the market.
Understanding and reading is one of the best instruments we humans have.
Experimenting is how icemelt and baking soda came around, it's how skimming came around and further evolved. Are you going to deny the difference in foam in just freshwater and vinegar from when you and I wove the mesh into our needle wheels? Are you going to deny the better performance of my ER? You helped me mod it. You saw it for yourself. I've been in contact with mike (on RC)for the last week. He told me of his mistakes. FWIW, the way I set the pump, it will run within the wattage of the Dart specs without the air pump. Look in the chris288 photo gallery.
Understanding and reading is one of the best instruments we humans have.
Experimenting is how icemelt and baking soda came around, it's how skimming came around and further evolved. Are you going to deny the difference in foam in just freshwater and vinegar from when you and I wove the mesh into our needle wheels? Are you going to deny the better performance of my ER? You helped me mod it. You saw it for yourself. I've been in contact with mike (on RC)for the last week. He told me of his mistakes. FWIW, the way I set the pump, it will run within the wattage of the Dart specs without the air pump. Look in the chris288 photo gallery.
yeah i been reading both of your post on RC. yes i know our stuff improved by eye. but if you read the last few posts on the other forums, the mesh NW was so stressfull it cracked the ER disc holding the ziptie
- Location
- Marine Park
I can't find the RC link but I remember a thread about air not being the be all end all of skimming. The argument was that there is a "sweet spot" of air volume to water to reaction time. More air means less water being recirculated in the chamber. Cutting the air back would be no good in the same way that cutting the water back is no good.
I don't doubt that you can pimp the sh!t out of a stock needlewheel and get much better performance but there have been some pretty bold statements thrown around in here. Deltecs are amazing as are Bks but I side with Chris in that you pay for it (and you get what you pay for). MY ASM G2 was pretty mack'ed out and it doesn't compare to my deltec. I'm tempted to threadwheel my ASM and throw it back in the sump to see how it does.
Also of course you can make a skimmer for less than the cost of paying someone else to R&D one and manufacture it for you.
I don't doubt that you can pimp the sh!t out of a stock needlewheel and get much better performance but there have been some pretty bold statements thrown around in here. Deltecs are amazing as are Bks but I side with Chris in that you pay for it (and you get what you pay for). MY ASM G2 was pretty mack'ed out and it doesn't compare to my deltec. I'm tempted to threadwheel my ASM and throw it back in the sump to see how it does.
Also of course you can make a skimmer for less than the cost of paying someone else to R&D one and manufacture it for you.
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which goes back to what YOU originally brought up of the mesh spreading out against the volute, which was why I came up with the needles holding the mesh. You were here looking at it, long before it was a post. Has anyone else made this mod?
Weren't you the one who said this was better than Deltec and BK? Why are you arguing this with me on an open forum? You and I worked out most of these issues long before I did the build. While I'm the one doing the build, laying out the $$$ and doing all the work, this was your idea.
Yes, by eye we could see it. By proof, I'm emptying my skimmer cup every day, rather than every 2 to 3 days.
Stop stirring sh!t.
chris
Fred, what do you have to lose modding your ASM? Give it a shot.
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I got a peak at this thing when I was over to pick up some stuff.. should work great the way it's placed. Saw the newly created skimmer too.. great stuff u got there..
-RareZ (Azad)
yes yes i thought it was better on some points, not better on everything. Just chris i know your excited about this, just dont hype it up until the long run. If your telling these guys how awsome it is, tell them about the negatives too =/ the little cons you wrote doesnt explain everything. I never said it's way better then RD or deltec products.
Why don't you tell us some more cons? :wink1: I don't think us needlewheel-skimmer owners care who gives us the information, as long as it's useful.
You guys can discuss what was previously said between you two via PMs.
Done.
Cons (all of which have been stated throughout the thread)
-Time consuming build.
-expensive materials.
-pumps draw higher watts, yet still stay within the specs.
-You are buying a pump and modifying it.
-Time consuming to build.
-shaving the volute.
-shaving down an impeller.
-more maintenance. Mesh needs to be kept clean and checks must be made to make sure it isn't falling apart.
-mesh wheel can come apart, become unbalanced and stress the wheel. Zip tie it properly and use the outermost set of pins to keep the mesh in place.
-Long term effects on the pump is unknown. Both of these mods have only been running a couple of months. Right now, I'm the only one trying the hybrid needle/mesh wheel. I'll let you know how it goes.
-Did I mention how time consuming this thing was to build?
I think the guys who are modifying their needle wheel with the mash will find the magnets wear out prematurely, the unbalance mash wheel will cause the magnet to vibrate and rub up against the pump housing.
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