Austrailia outlaws coral harvesting
- Thread starter JohnD
- Start date
I think you guys are getting this all worng. Coral harvesting industry in Australia is actually one of the best managed in the world. The harvesting is sustainable and does not create a harmful impact on the reef eco-system.
Members of the industry including hobbiest, other governent agaency, scientist, such as Dr. Veron, have monitored their reefs and concluded that the industry is nature-friendly.
For more info check out Reefing The Australian Way
Members of the industry including hobbiest, other governent agaency, scientist, such as Dr. Veron, have monitored their reefs and concluded that the industry is nature-friendly.
For more info check out Reefing The Australian Way
it doesnt matter if its sustainable...it doesnt matter how well managed it is. it shouldnt happen. period. especially in australia where it is such a unique and diverse ecosystem. and for us to think that its ok until it reaches a breaking point is ludicrous. the whole sustainable harvest bullsh!t is flawed IMHO.
loosbrew
loosbrew
You CAN have sustainable harvesting of wild corals. After storms there are broken heads which get buried in rubble. Those corals are doomed and it doesn't hurt to remove them. Besides, we frag corals all the time in our systems and they grow back. Do you think they don't grow back in their natural environment? The problem is uncontrolled harvesting via permanently destructive methods. I am all for captive propagation and buy my sps frags from places like drmac but if you outlaw responsible collecting in the wild you're going to drive up the price of corals and then you will have poaching which will be worse for the reefs. My opinion.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by loosbrew:
<STRONG>it doesnt matter if its sustainable...it doesnt matter how well managed it is. it shouldnt happen.
loosbrew</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would be interested in your reasons behind such a statement.
Since prominent members of the scientific community and even the Great Barrier Reefs Park Authoirty stand behind the Aquarium business, reacheing "a breaking point" is almost impossible.
<STRONG>it doesnt matter if its sustainable...it doesnt matter how well managed it is. it shouldnt happen.
loosbrew</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would be interested in your reasons behind such a statement.
Since prominent members of the scientific community and even the Great Barrier Reefs Park Authoirty stand behind the Aquarium business, reacheing "a breaking point" is almost impossible.
Hey loosbrew. If you really believe all of those things you say, I bet your aquarium is not very pretty. No fish, no corals, no live rock. I guess you dont like captive raised corals and fish too, becouse they corals they propagate where all taken from the ocean at one time. If we followed your no takeing rule there would be no reef tanks. Taking is a good thing. When they kill they reefs completly we will have something to put back.
loosbrew,
If you really believe what you stated in your post I think when you look at your tank you may see the reflection of a hypocrite in the glass. Your opinions about not harvesting anything marine for ornamental purposes seem based on emotion. Look into the collection done in Australia, it's responsibly managed, provides a source of revenue for for the marine park and helps build awareness. While the vast majority of collecting is irresponsible and harmful to already threatened reef's Australia's collection was really well managed and the park it's self and various scientific experts supported it wholeheartedly. Their Federal Environment Minister Robert Hill was making a name for himself as a pro-environmentalist politician and was very public in his criticism of how the phillipeans and all south pacific countries need to stop destroying the reefs. (On which point I agree with him.) He then had the coral collection in the GBR thrown in his face, which to those ignorant of the facts regarding collection made him seem like a big time hypocrite. This is a PR move to save face.
Collection of marine ornamentals as a whole may be contributing to the demise of the reef but the liscensed collectors in australia are not part of the problem.
Just another case of a politician doing what is right for them whether it is right or not.
Loosbrew look up some information on this particular subject and your position may change.
Regards
Jake
If you really believe what you stated in your post I think when you look at your tank you may see the reflection of a hypocrite in the glass. Your opinions about not harvesting anything marine for ornamental purposes seem based on emotion. Look into the collection done in Australia, it's responsibly managed, provides a source of revenue for for the marine park and helps build awareness. While the vast majority of collecting is irresponsible and harmful to already threatened reef's Australia's collection was really well managed and the park it's self and various scientific experts supported it wholeheartedly. Their Federal Environment Minister Robert Hill was making a name for himself as a pro-environmentalist politician and was very public in his criticism of how the phillipeans and all south pacific countries need to stop destroying the reefs. (On which point I agree with him.) He then had the coral collection in the GBR thrown in his face, which to those ignorant of the facts regarding collection made him seem like a big time hypocrite. This is a PR move to save face.
Collection of marine ornamentals as a whole may be contributing to the demise of the reef but the liscensed collectors in australia are not part of the problem.
Just another case of a politician doing what is right for them whether it is right or not.
Loosbrew look up some information on this particular subject and your position may change.
Regards
Jake
If we can manage our forests in Montana by thinning dead or over crowded trees and thinning so the forest is much healthier why can't we thin out a coral reef and remove the broken coral heads so new corals and the inhabitant have a better place to grow and prosper.
My point is we can do this, it is the WAY coral and inhabitants are collected that gives us a bad reputation. We as hobbyists need to educate ourselves and not buy things that have no business being in out tanks so we can frustrate the harvestors/LFS from taking these corals or inverts from the wild.
Everyone had better wake up because it will be on our door steps before long. JMO Johnny
My point is we can do this, it is the WAY coral and inhabitants are collected that gives us a bad reputation. We as hobbyists need to educate ourselves and not buy things that have no business being in out tanks so we can frustrate the harvestors/LFS from taking these corals or inverts from the wild.
Everyone had better wake up because it will be on our door steps before long. JMO Johnny
Loos: You and I usually share the same viewpoint on the environmental issues involved with the hobby and it's related industry. In this case, I'm going to disagree with you. I'm not directly commenting on the Australian situation because, frankly, I haven't done enough homework on it to feel my opinion is educated enough to do so.
In regards to sustainable (and my idea of sustainable is -very- different from the current state of affairs in most of the indo-pacific) harvesting, I feel it should be supported. Any sort of environmentally sustainable economic program involving the reefs adds financial value to their health and well-being; this goes a long way towards establishing a desire in those who make a living off them to see them protected and cared for. Mike Kirda, James Wiseman and I talked about this aspect of things at some length in the Editorial discussion forum, and you might find those old posts interesting in explaining this viewpoint.
In regards to sustainable (and my idea of sustainable is -very- different from the current state of affairs in most of the indo-pacific) harvesting, I feel it should be supported. Any sort of environmentally sustainable economic program involving the reefs adds financial value to their health and well-being; this goes a long way towards establishing a desire in those who make a living off them to see them protected and cared for. Mike Kirda, James Wiseman and I talked about this aspect of things at some length in the Editorial discussion forum, and you might find those old posts interesting in explaining this viewpoint.
Sustainable use of the reef interms of coral collection, fisheries for food and tourisim is the only way to save many of the reefs in the world. Most of the countries that have reefs are by no means rich. If a sustainable harvest is done the local people will have a good and steady source of income. To them this could be their way out of poverty and earning money on a consistent basis. As a result the locals will be more open to ideas on conservation because a healthy reef is a profitable one and their future income depends on it.
If Wild harvesting is outlawed out right what do you think these people are going to do? They want to feed their families TODAY, not tommorrow, not next week, not next month but TODAY!! So they will turn to other means that reap maximum returns in the shortest period of time by cyanide fishing, dyanmite fishing etc. Can you blame them? NO, as they are just trying to feed their families. Which would you choose
1) Food on the table for your family
or
2) Pretty little fish swimming in the ocean
You have to remember that these people aren't collecting the animals for fun or to make us happy. It's very easy to sit in your house with a car in your drive way, a fridge full of food and a bank account with lots of money and say "All wild coral harvesting should be banned!".
Instead of banning wild harvesting we should be pushing and supporting ways to sustainably harvest corals and capture fish. Mariculture facilities are another excellent way to protect the reef as well as help the local population.
If Wild harvesting is outlawed out right what do you think these people are going to do? They want to feed their families TODAY, not tommorrow, not next week, not next month but TODAY!! So they will turn to other means that reap maximum returns in the shortest period of time by cyanide fishing, dyanmite fishing etc. Can you blame them? NO, as they are just trying to feed their families. Which would you choose
1) Food on the table for your family
or
2) Pretty little fish swimming in the ocean
You have to remember that these people aren't collecting the animals for fun or to make us happy. It's very easy to sit in your house with a car in your drive way, a fridge full of food and a bank account with lots of money and say "All wild coral harvesting should be banned!".
Instead of banning wild harvesting we should be pushing and supporting ways to sustainably harvest corals and capture fish. Mariculture facilities are another excellent way to protect the reef as well as help the local population.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JamesC:
<STRONG>Mariculture facilities are another excellent way to protect the reef as well as help the local population.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, when placed near the coast, there's waste runoff issues with mariculture, which can harm the reefs if too intense. Shrimperies have a bad reputation regarding this.
<STRONG>Mariculture facilities are another excellent way to protect the reef as well as help the local population.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, when placed near the coast, there's waste runoff issues with mariculture, which can harm the reefs if too intense. Shrimperies have a bad reputation regarding this.
Just to put it into perspective, the total collected within the GBR by licensed collectors is currently only 15 tonnes per annum, out of a total allowable limit of 100 tonnes. Given the capacity of the reef system this is literally a drop in the bucket.
Much more serious concerns are the effects of pollution to the inner reefs caused by freshwater run-off from adjacent farm lands, cattle ranches and the phosphates, insecticides etc which accompany it. We won't even guess at the effects of global warming but suffice to say that supplying the aquarium trade is close to, if not at the bottom, of the list of potential issues facing the GBR.
Collection of live rocks and living corals and their use by the hobbyists does in fact provide an avenue for future propagation of animals which may one day allow re-seeding of the natural reefs...who knows. ?
Much more serious concerns are the effects of pollution to the inner reefs caused by freshwater run-off from adjacent farm lands, cattle ranches and the phosphates, insecticides etc which accompany it. We won't even guess at the effects of global warming but suffice to say that supplying the aquarium trade is close to, if not at the bottom, of the list of potential issues facing the GBR.
Collection of live rocks and living corals and their use by the hobbyists does in fact provide an avenue for future propagation of animals which may one day allow re-seeding of the natural reefs...who knows. ?
Anyone who supports conservation in our hobby should be applauded not criticized.
In the past our hobby has been damaged by backward thinking people who beleive that just because it is in the ocean we should harvest it.
As a result, governments may take steps that hurt us all.
In the past our hobby has been damaged by backward thinking people who beleive that just because it is in the ocean we should harvest it.
As a result, governments may take steps that hurt us all.
There is an awful lot of flaming going on and people calling someone a hypocrite. All those who called Loosbrew a hypocrite and DO NOT have fiji or tonga or some other south pacific live rock in there tank please stand up. Hmmmm still sitting. Why should we not strive towards no wild collected corals? Responsible collecting is not all that feasible unless there are no poachers in Australia, yea right. All those statistics are based on numbers by licensed collectors.
I am not saying you are a hypocrite if your tanks are filled with live rock taken from the places we know it is doing serious damage, no you would have to care first.
No-one should call a man who has become someone who does care a hypocrite. "Scientists agree". I can find you just as many who do not agree. Of all the Scientists who have ever lived 90% are alive right now. I will not have a problem finding scientists who oppose wild collecting when tank propagating is as easy as it is.
Untill we as consumers spend our money on aquacultered rock, instead of live rock that is taken from reefs that are suffering we are hurting this hobby. As long as we do not seek out tank raised fish we give no benifit to people finding better methods to do so.
Do not attack Loosbrew when you are supporting the rape of our planet.
Yes my tank has friendly rock and we have been patient in asking for as many tank raised fish as possible.
I do think our hobby can and does do the right thing as far as the envioroment goes but not to many thanks to those who do not at least try to conserve it. All that south pacific rock is nothing but an ugly scar to me.
Anyone mention we have the 3rd largest barrier reef in the world. Five miles off Florida. One dive on White banks reef and Molasses reef and I am motivated to do my part.
I am with Loosbrew and I havent always been on this issue.
I am not saying you are a hypocrite if your tanks are filled with live rock taken from the places we know it is doing serious damage, no you would have to care first.
No-one should call a man who has become someone who does care a hypocrite. "Scientists agree". I can find you just as many who do not agree. Of all the Scientists who have ever lived 90% are alive right now. I will not have a problem finding scientists who oppose wild collecting when tank propagating is as easy as it is.
Untill we as consumers spend our money on aquacultered rock, instead of live rock that is taken from reefs that are suffering we are hurting this hobby. As long as we do not seek out tank raised fish we give no benifit to people finding better methods to do so.
Do not attack Loosbrew when you are supporting the rape of our planet.
Yes my tank has friendly rock and we have been patient in asking for as many tank raised fish as possible.
I do think our hobby can and does do the right thing as far as the envioroment goes but not to many thanks to those who do not at least try to conserve it. All that south pacific rock is nothing but an ugly scar to me.
Anyone mention we have the 3rd largest barrier reef in the world. Five miles off Florida. One dive on White banks reef and Molasses reef and I am motivated to do my part.
I am with Loosbrew and I havent always been on this issue.
I think you guys have taken this way out of perspective. This is not a HUGE environmental issue. It is a political scam.
I normal say very little, but after hearing some of those absurd gestures and views i feel compelled to explain a few things.
Australia is a very forward thinking country . Unlike some countries that won't agree to the kyoto summit agreements on greenhouse gases etc... I know not all americans are in favour of bushes stance on this but as we see it, you voted him in(off- topic but still a valid point on other environmental policies).
Harvesting of wild corals is sustainable here in Australia. The effects of this collection cause MINIMAL damage to the reef system. What causes 200 times more damage is run-off, such as the types gazpep spoke about.
An interesting note would be that tourists also cause more damage then rock collecting, so maybe we should ban site seeing and diving on the reefs. Would you like to travel all this way not to enjoy the beauty of the reef because you do more damage then the local collectors, No! So where do we stop on this issue??
I too do not like to see the environment harmed/damaged. If we were taking too much then I would say definatly NO to this practice, but we aren't. The organising body GBRMP have also stated that our collections cause very minimal damage and regrowth of new corals far outways what is taken...
That is my 2 bob ....
Bondy
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Bondy ]
I normal say very little, but after hearing some of those absurd gestures and views i feel compelled to explain a few things.
Australia is a very forward thinking country . Unlike some countries that won't agree to the kyoto summit agreements on greenhouse gases etc... I know not all americans are in favour of bushes stance on this but as we see it, you voted him in(off- topic but still a valid point on other environmental policies).
Harvesting of wild corals is sustainable here in Australia. The effects of this collection cause MINIMAL damage to the reef system. What causes 200 times more damage is run-off, such as the types gazpep spoke about.
An interesting note would be that tourists also cause more damage then rock collecting, so maybe we should ban site seeing and diving on the reefs. Would you like to travel all this way not to enjoy the beauty of the reef because you do more damage then the local collectors, No! So where do we stop on this issue??
I too do not like to see the environment harmed/damaged. If we were taking too much then I would say definatly NO to this practice, but we aren't. The organising body GBRMP have also stated that our collections cause very minimal damage and regrowth of new corals far outways what is taken...
That is my 2 bob ....
Bondy
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Bondy ]
Sad to admit, but I have to tell you Taiwan has little to none police authority in natural resouces law enforcement. I am a Taiwanese myself. What is needed there is education to the general public on protecting natural resources. You can go to tidepools and see people picking up critters that they have no ways of properly maintaining them in captivity. The marine hobby in Taiwan is rare and the popular equipments are outdated. People there simply have no awareness of preciousness of reef. You do not see warden patroling the beaches as in U.S.
This is a common scenario in less developed countries that does not rely on export of marine resources. In comparison with Australia, I think the scenario Naesco brings up is a bad example. Maybe Guam, Hawaii, or Southern Japan would be more suited in this debate.
This is a common scenario in less developed countries that does not rely on export of marine resources. In comparison with Australia, I think the scenario Naesco brings up is a bad example. Maybe Guam, Hawaii, or Southern Japan would be more suited in this debate.
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