Austrailia outlaws coral harvesting
- Thread starter JohnD
- Start date
It has been estimated that the GBR produces 5oooooo tons of coral every year. The collectors take is restricted to 50 tons a year, but the most that they have ever taken is 15 tons. Does that put it into perspective? While the Government seek to ban collection, they continue to allow unfettered agricultrual development, the runoff from which continues to poison the reef, they continue to allow the unfettered developement of tourism and the the damage which this industry causes and most importantly, they refuse to sign the Kyoto Agreement. What a joke!!!
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
Dave & Ivy,
All I was trying to do was get Danmhippo off the hook. I said " I think the comment was directed to others on the board etc ". I wasn't the one that made the comment in the first place but as DBW hadn't yet clarified his point I just wanted to clear things up as far as Danmhippo was concerned.
It is obvious that not everyone supports our position and that is OK. Loosebrew has his reasons and he has articulated his position pretty well in the meantime. Hope all is cool now.
Gary
All I was trying to do was get Danmhippo off the hook. I said " I think the comment was directed to others on the board etc ". I wasn't the one that made the comment in the first place but as DBW hadn't yet clarified his point I just wanted to clear things up as far as Danmhippo was concerned.
It is obvious that not everyone supports our position and that is OK. Loosebrew has his reasons and he has articulated his position pretty well in the meantime. Hope all is cool now.
Gary
I think banning corals and fishes that are hard to keep today is foolish. I bet soon mandrins will be tank raised and goniporas propagated. I am sure people felt the same way 40 years ago about people trying to keep SPS. And if they had baned SPS we would have never have learned how to propagate them. I think humans will completly destroy the reefs, and the people with aquariums will have something to seed it with. So we can either sit back and let the others kill the reefs, or we can learn to propagate all corals and fish. Sure we will kill a few, but it will help in the long run. I heard they make live corals into cement.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gazpep:
<STRONG>Dave & Ivy,
Hope all is cool now.
Gary</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gary
I may have gone a little over the top. I was relly getting peeved about so many people bashing Loosbrew for doing nothing more than stating his opinion. Heck he never said anyone was wrong but many lined up to voice that his opinion was completely incorrect.
When we start saying some one has no right to voice thier thoughts we all lose.
I prefer to buy tank raised but if not avalable I will buy wild caught. I do not want to see this ban but it would never become politicaly advantages if we were much more responsible with our dollars.
The thought of someone taking a hammer to a reef is appauling to someone outside this hobby. I think we need to educate more people in our hobby before trying to educate people outside of it.
Of course this is only my opinion, we will see how long it takes before I am told I have no right to have it
<STRONG>Dave & Ivy,
Hope all is cool now.
Gary</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gary
I may have gone a little over the top. I was relly getting peeved about so many people bashing Loosbrew for doing nothing more than stating his opinion. Heck he never said anyone was wrong but many lined up to voice that his opinion was completely incorrect.
When we start saying some one has no right to voice thier thoughts we all lose.
I prefer to buy tank raised but if not avalable I will buy wild caught. I do not want to see this ban but it would never become politicaly advantages if we were much more responsible with our dollars.
The thought of someone taking a hammer to a reef is appauling to someone outside this hobby. I think we need to educate more people in our hobby before trying to educate people outside of it.
Of course this is only my opinion, we will see how long it takes before I am told I have no right to have it
While it may have given some a nice warm fuzzy feeling to advocate the use of propogated corals in aquariums where possible, this type of discussion does about as much good for the world's reefs as Senator Hill's decision to ban coral collection on the GBR. Hobbyists should do as much as they posssibly can to minimize the impact on our reefs and strict control and research should be supported, I haven't heard anybody disagreeing with those sort of sentiments. Indeed, it is my opinion that the GBR is the best example of this and to hear people in this hobby suggest that it should be seen as a sacrifial lamb makes me dispair, even if to dispair is unmanly Fishaholic. Loosebrew, would you be as passoniate about reef conservation if it were not for this hobby? In apparently supporting this ban on the GBR you seem to want to cut off this sort education process in Australia. I think the point I made about the close of U.S. reefs for collection was valid. It may have given a few people a nice feeling but did it really help out the world's reefs? IMO no, it just shifted the trade to where it cannot be controlled. Collection on the GBR is well controlled and scientists have come out and said that there is no evidence for the practice having had a detrimental effect over the many years that it has been taking place. For the people who value the reefs and support minimal impact of our hobby as I do, I would say this - fight the real problems with vigor and don't think that it is enough to preach to the converted. We are talking about one of the few examples where a reef system is sustainably harvested with tight controls for the aquarium industry. Poaching may go on but you rarely hear of it. One thing for sure is that if there is poaching now then it will only increase if there is a blanket ban. I am not saying that there are things that could not be improved in this market (Goniopora is sold in LFS etc), there are but there are people trying to improve them and I don't believe that a blanket ban is the answer. Sopeople, please don't throw this issue in with all of the other concerns that you have about the impact of the hobby on the global reef situation, I don't believe that you will be doing the cause any favours. If we can't start to live with and enjoy our environment without causing it irrepairable damage, I think that this will become a very sad world indeed. Then agin, I am not such a defeatist to think that!!!
fwiw,
Gavan
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: GavAn ]
fwiw,
Gavan
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: GavAn ]
Gary the comment by DBW was hurting.
I appreciate anyone's opinion but the nature of the comment of DBW (agree with me or get out of the hobby or off the board as I am an administrator)is to be ignored (hopefully)or condemned.
I along with damnhippo and others are waiting for HIS clarification and hopefully his apology.
I appreciate anyone's opinion but the nature of the comment of DBW (agree with me or get out of the hobby or off the board as I am an administrator)is to be ignored (hopefully)or condemned.
I along with damnhippo and others are waiting for HIS clarification and hopefully his apology.
Naesco I think you may have read a little into what DBW said. He works hard in this hobby and has been around quite a while lending his experience to those who need it.
I find it hard to believe that anyone would take the approach loosbrew has, that operates a reef tank. I know he explained himself quite well. I am all for restrictions but I don't think an out right ban is the answer either.
I find it hard to believe that anyone would take the approach loosbrew has, that operates a reef tank. I know he explained himself quite well. I am all for restrictions but I don't think an out right ban is the answer either.
One of the things I am curious about is research. If wild collection is banned how can ANY research be done. I don't of any method to determine gut contents of animals without opening the gut. What of medical research? Take a look at the horseshoe crab. I can't remember what it is good for but I do remember that if lots of them weren't killed then the medical value would never have been discovered. It is one thing to wontonly destroy the creatures we have been so graciously given to care for for posterity. It is quite another to completely cut ourselves off from them. If eagles had never been taken from the wild we probably wouldn't have them now. The poachers would continue to poach and the scientific community would have sat around and wondered what the best way to save them was. I guess the reintroduction of the wolves we almost killed off is a bad thing. If "wild collection" of these animals had been illegal, the poachers would have killed them all and the scientific community could never have saved them. They couldn't have collected any for study.
Naesco, (nice to meet you by the way, I didn't notice you were down the street
)
I don't really wanna speak for DBW.
I will say that what I read in his statement was surprise that someone would support a 100% ban that is keeping a reef and posting on a captive reef board. This is a big thread so I hope I'm speaking about the same thread: Whooo, I never really thought I would see someone with those sort of opinions. If that is your opinion, then why are you in this hobby?, a pretty valid question in my mind.
I don't really wanna speak for DBW.
I will say that what I read in his statement was surprise that someone would support a 100% ban that is keeping a reef and posting on a captive reef board. This is a big thread so I hope I'm speaking about the same thread: Whooo, I never really thought I would see someone with those sort of opinions. If that is your opinion, then why are you in this hobby?, a pretty valid question in my mind.
Usually don't jump in on the opinion threads and stick to biomineral questions, but I couldn't resist this time.
Several posts to this thread have stated that we are doing a service to the reefs, because when the reefs are destroyed, we'll have the stuff in our tanks to replenish it. That's hogwash.
If the reefs are destroyed, it's because there is a market to support the destruction. The market is created by marine hobbyists. This statement about replenishment is only a feeble attempt, IMO, to justify what we're responsible for and to try to feel good about it. Who, might I ask, if called upon, would donate his or her tank to the reef?
The statement about replenishment is like an evil king who withholds food from his kingdom until everyone is on the brink of starvation, then gives the food out and calls himself a saviour.
Just my opinion. Now I will sleep much better.
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: jdeets ]
Several posts to this thread have stated that we are doing a service to the reefs, because when the reefs are destroyed, we'll have the stuff in our tanks to replenish it. That's hogwash.
If the reefs are destroyed, it's because there is a market to support the destruction. The market is created by marine hobbyists. This statement about replenishment is only a feeble attempt, IMO, to justify what we're responsible for and to try to feel good about it. Who, might I ask, if called upon, would donate his or her tank to the reef?
The statement about replenishment is like an evil king who withholds food from his kingdom until everyone is on the brink of starvation, then gives the food out and calls himself a saviour.
Just my opinion. Now I will sleep much better.
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: jdeets ]
Fishaholic,
I am a professional research scientist for for an organization that has as one of its main briefs, the conservation of Australian Fauna. Much of my work is ultimately aimed at conserving endangered species though perhaps not as directly as the kind of stuff that you have mentioned. I have numerous research papers published but I don't need to run them off because they are not relevant to this discussin. I applaude the type of work that you have been involved in and I endorse your attempts to minimise the hobby's impact on the reefs but when you start supporting banning a hobby that has an immense potential to educate the public on the plight of the reefs and one which has been shown not to be having an impact on the natural environment in this particulr setting... well that is where we part ways. Go ahead, support politicians that do things out of a desire to make a name for themselves rather than taking stock of what the best way to really tackle intractible issues like reef degradation are, they will be knocking on your door next...
BTW, I agree that this sort of thing is no particulr country's jurisdiction. That is why I am spending the time to chat on this board.
Ciao,
Gavan
I am a professional research scientist for for an organization that has as one of its main briefs, the conservation of Australian Fauna. Much of my work is ultimately aimed at conserving endangered species though perhaps not as directly as the kind of stuff that you have mentioned. I have numerous research papers published but I don't need to run them off because they are not relevant to this discussin. I applaude the type of work that you have been involved in and I endorse your attempts to minimise the hobby's impact on the reefs but when you start supporting banning a hobby that has an immense potential to educate the public on the plight of the reefs and one which has been shown not to be having an impact on the natural environment in this particulr setting... well that is where we part ways. Go ahead, support politicians that do things out of a desire to make a name for themselves rather than taking stock of what the best way to really tackle intractible issues like reef degradation are, they will be knocking on your door next...
BTW, I agree that this sort of thing is no particulr country's jurisdiction. That is why I am spending the time to chat on this board.
Ciao,
Gavan
I to applaud your efforts but I do ask where you have summized that I have given support to this ban.
I have clearly stated that We need to be better and more ethical and speak with our dollars and by doing so we will avoid bans and restrictions please re-read my posts, not just a few and you will see that is the case. Also before this thread started myself and others have advocated for people to stop the support of buying anything other than aquacultered rock, to seek out tank raised fish in support of the fisheries that try to bring about change. These changes do not happen overnight but if we do not support them we all lose. This thread is not the start of the diolog of what I and others speak, just a continuation in an effort to help our fellow hobbyists. Some have taken the time to come to this board already with punches ready to be thrown and no intent for real discussion. I entered this in am attempt to help someone who was wrongfuly being trashed.
I have clearly stated that We need to be better and more ethical and speak with our dollars and by doing so we will avoid bans and restrictions please re-read my posts, not just a few and you will see that is the case. Also before this thread started myself and others have advocated for people to stop the support of buying anything other than aquacultered rock, to seek out tank raised fish in support of the fisheries that try to bring about change. These changes do not happen overnight but if we do not support them we all lose. This thread is not the start of the diolog of what I and others speak, just a continuation in an effort to help our fellow hobbyists. Some have taken the time to come to this board already with punches ready to be thrown and no intent for real discussion. I entered this in am attempt to help someone who was wrongfuly being trashed.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fishaholic:
<STRONG>I feel for you all in Austrailia but these restrictions were going to start somewhere, maybe if you start advocating for people to buy more responsibly instead of making excuses for peoples unresponsible buying habits, ie, the cheapest live rock or ohh this is much more preaty. This is the end result, Bans and restrictions.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know how else that this could be interpreted...
<STRONG>I feel for you all in Austrailia but these restrictions were going to start somewhere, maybe if you start advocating for people to buy more responsibly instead of making excuses for peoples unresponsible buying habits, ie, the cheapest live rock or ohh this is much more preaty. This is the end result, Bans and restrictions.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know how else that this could be interpreted...
James,
The way that I read that quote,regardless of what else was said, is "you guys goofed off and now you are paying the price". I could could let that slide if the reef system in question was in a bad way, but it is not... If I have misread the intent of the statement then I appologise.
Gavan
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: GavAn ]
The way that I read that quote,regardless of what else was said, is "you guys goofed off and now you are paying the price". I could could let that slide if the reef system in question was in a bad way, but it is not... If I have misread the intent of the statement then I appologise.
Gavan
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: GavAn ]
Hey Fishaholic you call people crude and childish and then posture about other people's attitudes Take a look at your own!!! By the way, I think I saw you on TV, your part was played by a character called Marshall Thompson and there was this funny chimpanzee that kept letting people's tyres down with sticks(must have been one that you re-released back into the wild) and a lazy crossed eyed lion called Clarence. Still no sign of that post to lobby against the importation of corals and fish into the USA!!
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
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