Austrailia outlaws coral harvesting
- Thread starter JohnD
- Start date
which opinion are you referring to? The part that I admitting my birthplace's lack of enforcement, or the fact that someone from there would be in this hobby (well, I don't actually call this hobby, I call it the other significant-others of mine)
I think the availability and the exchange of information and education is the key here. I, like many immigrant, came to US when small, and have access to much more information in comparison to the counterpart back home. The availability of more advanced equipment and SW or Reef keeping techniques that makes tank keeping possible is much greater here in U.S. than Taiwan. It is no brainer that this hobby is far more popular here than Taiwan. But frankly, I maybe missing your point. Why does this have anything to do with I myself in this hobby?
I think the availability and the exchange of information and education is the key here. I, like many immigrant, came to US when small, and have access to much more information in comparison to the counterpart back home. The availability of more advanced equipment and SW or Reef keeping techniques that makes tank keeping possible is much greater here in U.S. than Taiwan. It is no brainer that this hobby is far more popular here than Taiwan. But frankly, I maybe missing your point. Why does this have anything to do with I myself in this hobby?
Soo what exactly are you all defending when you say that other people seem to not like the hobby we take a part in. The fact we try to do the best we can not to take from the wild?
I made no references to Austrailia not protecting thier resorces, just that I can guarentee that poaching does exist and those statistics are flawed.
"other" if your going to address something dont be a weak little girl, address it.
I also stand by the fact we should not be buying things we know are destroying reefs.
Many people attacked Loosbrew for his opinion I guess we have formed the opinion police now.
Atleast he is man enough to clearly state his.
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]
I made no references to Austrailia not protecting thier resorces, just that I can guarentee that poaching does exist and those statistics are flawed.
"other" if your going to address something dont be a weak little girl, address it.
I also stand by the fact we should not be buying things we know are destroying reefs.
Many people attacked Loosbrew for his opinion I guess we have formed the opinion police now.
Atleast he is man enough to clearly state his.
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]
This is what we stand for-the future existence of our hobby. The market here in reef aquariums would probably number under two or three thousand. If this ban takes effect the hobby will die! If LFS cannot get corals in quantity, they will stop selling all the needed dry goods needed in the hobby. Sure, established reefers will struggle on, but there will be little or no new entry. Before Fishaholic gets on his high horse concerning propagation, let me tell you ,that most people are doing this, but our population of 20,000000,is spread very thinly and no propagator could, or would supply the whole market because it is too small. Most of our American friends have been most supportive and for that we are grateful. To you Fishaholic, is this Manly enough?
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]
No high horse here.
It is nice to have a diolog that is direct though. There have been many, including myself who have advocated for all of us to more responsible with how we purchase. To buy aquacultered rock, to support fisheries that tank raise fish to avoid restrictions and bans. When we buy fiji rock that does come directly off the reefs, it is not in someone elses backyard it is Our back yard. We are all effected. I feel for you all in Austrailia but these restrictions were going to start somewhere, maybe if you start advocating for people to buy more responsibly instead of making excuses for peoples unresponsible buying habits, ie, the cheapest live rock or ohh this is much more preaty. This is the end result, Bans and restrictions.
I hope that every single hobbist hears your cries, so maybe they can start thinking Before they purchase.
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]
It is nice to have a diolog that is direct though. There have been many, including myself who have advocated for all of us to more responsible with how we purchase. To buy aquacultered rock, to support fisheries that tank raise fish to avoid restrictions and bans. When we buy fiji rock that does come directly off the reefs, it is not in someone elses backyard it is Our back yard. We are all effected. I feel for you all in Austrailia but these restrictions were going to start somewhere, maybe if you start advocating for people to buy more responsibly instead of making excuses for peoples unresponsible buying habits, ie, the cheapest live rock or ohh this is much more preaty. This is the end result, Bans and restrictions.
I hope that every single hobbist hears your cries, so maybe they can start thinking Before they purchase.
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]
ok, i am going o take this time to explain a few things. yes, everytime i look into my aquarium, which hasnt seen a wild coral in a very very long time, i get sad. i have two fish, one of which is my very first, and another i purchased before i felt the way i do. i feel that i have a responsibility towards my animals and i try my best to fulfill that. i refuse to let my tank go based on the my fear that someone else will kill the animals in it. if i even lose a frag or a piece of a coral that has come from many generations of homegrown coral, i get sad. i keep the skeleton as a reminder of what i shouldnt have gotten myself into. but like i said i have a responsibility to my animals.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
i dont "pursue" the hobby. i am merely interested in the advances that it makes in the conservation side of it. i try and help some people keep thier animals alive, because no mater what i say or do, no one will listen and still buy gonis and anemones, like i once did.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
you're right, if this was the only case in which they collected the coral, but its not, and removing 50 tons of coral a year is alot, even if it pales in comparison to how much is out there.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
im not saying people shouldnt have reef aquariums, im saying that we shouldnt have to resort to wild collection, now that we have means to create an environment that our animals will thrive in without such methods.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
because there are many more species of coral in the reefs, and to "thin" out corals would involve witch species will thrive and which wouldnt. i dont think we can justify "thining" reefs so they grow better, thats a little bit ludicrous.
cjdevito
i can understand this point of view, maybe not neseccarily agree with it wholeheartedly, but i understand it. i feel that it has a place, just not as a world wide market for a hobby. research and awareness i am all for, but not the exploitation for a hobby.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>If Wild harvesting is outlawed out right what do you think these people are going to do? They want to feed their families TODAY, not tommorrow, not next week, not next month but TODAY!! So they will turn to other means that reap maximum returns in the shortest period of time by cyanide fishing, dyanmite fishing etc. Can you blame them? NO, as they are just trying to feed their families. Which would you choose
1) Food on the table for your family
or
2) Pretty little fish swimming in the ocean <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
what did they do before hand? how did they live before they knew what money was, or had a nice watch or clothes?
--------------------------------------------
look, i dont claim to know everything, and i never will. i dont claim to know the answers to our problems in both lights. i just merely have a spoken opinion, and if that helps someone else make a desicion wether to purchase wild or captive, then great , but itsnot what im here for. im here because at one point in my life i loved the hobby and supported it with open arms. i went out and tried all of the different methods and had my hands wet every other night. i went out and bought wild corals, becase i didnt know any better. i bought fish, lost a few, and i still have a few. i go to great lengths to make sure that my animal friends are as happy as i can provide, and for the most part, they dont complain. but i know id rather see them in the ocean, where theyshould be, rather than some guy in fiji making a few dollars.
loosbrew
edit*
a link to my reef pics.
http://members.home.net/loosbrew/tankpics
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: loosbrew ]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
i dont "pursue" the hobby. i am merely interested in the advances that it makes in the conservation side of it. i try and help some people keep thier animals alive, because no mater what i say or do, no one will listen and still buy gonis and anemones, like i once did.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
you're right, if this was the only case in which they collected the coral, but its not, and removing 50 tons of coral a year is alot, even if it pales in comparison to how much is out there.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
im not saying people shouldnt have reef aquariums, im saying that we shouldnt have to resort to wild collection, now that we have means to create an environment that our animals will thrive in without such methods.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
because there are many more species of coral in the reefs, and to "thin" out corals would involve witch species will thrive and which wouldnt. i dont think we can justify "thining" reefs so they grow better, thats a little bit ludicrous.
cjdevito
i can understand this point of view, maybe not neseccarily agree with it wholeheartedly, but i understand it. i feel that it has a place, just not as a world wide market for a hobby. research and awareness i am all for, but not the exploitation for a hobby.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>If Wild harvesting is outlawed out right what do you think these people are going to do? They want to feed their families TODAY, not tommorrow, not next week, not next month but TODAY!! So they will turn to other means that reap maximum returns in the shortest period of time by cyanide fishing, dyanmite fishing etc. Can you blame them? NO, as they are just trying to feed their families. Which would you choose
1) Food on the table for your family
or
2) Pretty little fish swimming in the ocean <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
what did they do before hand? how did they live before they knew what money was, or had a nice watch or clothes?
--------------------------------------------
look, i dont claim to know everything, and i never will. i dont claim to know the answers to our problems in both lights. i just merely have a spoken opinion, and if that helps someone else make a desicion wether to purchase wild or captive, then great , but itsnot what im here for. im here because at one point in my life i loved the hobby and supported it with open arms. i went out and tried all of the different methods and had my hands wet every other night. i went out and bought wild corals, becase i didnt know any better. i bought fish, lost a few, and i still have a few. i go to great lengths to make sure that my animal friends are as happy as i can provide, and for the most part, they dont complain. but i know id rather see them in the ocean, where theyshould be, rather than some guy in fiji making a few dollars.
loosbrew
edit*
a link to my reef pics.
http://members.home.net/loosbrew/tankpics
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: loosbrew ]
I think you explained yourself very well loosbrew. I think all of us share your concern for the animals that we have chosen to place under our care. So we choose not to keep fish in tanks that are too small, not to keep species that are nearly impossible to sustain to a natural lifespan, etc. But you have to keep things in perspective. Do you think it is cruel to keep zooanthids or green star polyps in our tanks? We could probably replensih the worlds supply of these weeds (I mean polyps) from just the few tanks represented here. Anyone who seriously wants a ban to protect the environment knows that you protect specific species that are endangered or that shouldn't be collected. I am against bans in general but if someone wanted to say that manadarins or goniopora needed to be banned that would be one thing. But a blanket ban on every species of coral shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject. It is our responsibility as people interested in our hobby to educate people (and even politicians) about corals. There is no reason to ban collection of corals and thereby kill or at least greatly hinder the hobby in Australia.
2poor2reef,
people who will honetsly go the lengths that i do for my reef are few and far between. i know there are mant people on these boards that do what they can, and do support captive propagation. but think of the many many species of coral we cant keep in our care. many species of sps grow only millimeters a year. it isnt an emotional issue for me. i dont think its nesseacrily cruel to keep corals, as they have no feeling or emotion to feel lonely or trapped. i cant say i feel the same for fish but...it is our responsibilty to make sure that we keep these reefs alive in the oceans first, then in or tanks. i will never say that it is a bad thing that we have corals in our tanks thriving and growing. and i agree with you that the option of replenishment with what we have is a good one to have and study. but, the fact that our hobby contributes to the issue, albiet a small portion of the issue, is still nonetheless important.we as a species takes everything for granted, have to realise that we dont need to "consume" so much to justify the reason you give. for instance...how could you justify purchasing a wild colony of green stars if you know you can get some that will grow like a weed from a propagated frag? you may not have purchased a wild GSP colony but many people still do. just like they purchase wild colonies of acro millepora, pocillopora damicornus, montipora digitata, montipora capricornus, acropora samoensis, and we even have a few places selling euphylia species as well. why do we need to purchase fiji rock when we have aquacultured rock from the gulf of mexico? because of diversity for our tanks? which is more important, our tanks or the habitat thats being cleaned of all the rubble that storms wash to lagoons. rubble which is used to help maintain the nutrient balance of a reef, or provides the base for many colonies of would be corals. so maybe if we can somehow justify which species that need to focused on in terms of growing, i wouldnt be so passionate about it, but to seamlessly take any species at will is a little too much for me to agree with.
loosbrew
people who will honetsly go the lengths that i do for my reef are few and far between. i know there are mant people on these boards that do what they can, and do support captive propagation. but think of the many many species of coral we cant keep in our care. many species of sps grow only millimeters a year. it isnt an emotional issue for me. i dont think its nesseacrily cruel to keep corals, as they have no feeling or emotion to feel lonely or trapped. i cant say i feel the same for fish but...it is our responsibilty to make sure that we keep these reefs alive in the oceans first, then in or tanks. i will never say that it is a bad thing that we have corals in our tanks thriving and growing. and i agree with you that the option of replenishment with what we have is a good one to have and study. but, the fact that our hobby contributes to the issue, albiet a small portion of the issue, is still nonetheless important.we as a species takes everything for granted, have to realise that we dont need to "consume" so much to justify the reason you give. for instance...how could you justify purchasing a wild colony of green stars if you know you can get some that will grow like a weed from a propagated frag? you may not have purchased a wild GSP colony but many people still do. just like they purchase wild colonies of acro millepora, pocillopora damicornus, montipora digitata, montipora capricornus, acropora samoensis, and we even have a few places selling euphylia species as well. why do we need to purchase fiji rock when we have aquacultured rock from the gulf of mexico? because of diversity for our tanks? which is more important, our tanks or the habitat thats being cleaned of all the rubble that storms wash to lagoons. rubble which is used to help maintain the nutrient balance of a reef, or provides the base for many colonies of would be corals. so maybe if we can somehow justify which species that need to focused on in terms of growing, i wouldnt be so passionate about it, but to seamlessly take any species at will is a little too much for me to agree with.
loosbrew
I'm against banning collection if it has been proven to be sustainable (as Australia has done). I would also support a large tariff on collected animals. The tariff could be used to help repair damaged reefs and reasearch into propogation and breeding. Since prices on wild caught animals would be much higher (double maybe??) propogated animals would be highly sought after. This could allow an expansion of captive bred animals.
You're either an optimist or a pessimist. You look at your tank and you're racked with guilt. I look at mine and say cool! Sink some old barges or dump 50 tons of broken concrete on the edge of the GBR. Let people collect corals from a similar sized area of the reef. The options are numerous. This is a terrific world we live in loosbrew. We have to minimize the damage and act responsibly, and enjoy the world that God gave us. Plan don't ban.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2poor2reef:
<STRONG>You're either an optimist or a pessimist. You look at your tank and you're racked with guilt. I look at mine and say cool! Sink some old barges or dump 50 tons of broken concrete on the edge of the GBR. Let people collect corals from a similar sized area of the reef. The options are numerous. This is a terrific world we live in loosbrew. We have to minimize the damage and act responsibly, and enjoy the world that God gave us. Plan don't ban.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is what I support, not restrictions
<STRONG>You're either an optimist or a pessimist. You look at your tank and you're racked with guilt. I look at mine and say cool! Sink some old barges or dump 50 tons of broken concrete on the edge of the GBR. Let people collect corals from a similar sized area of the reef. The options are numerous. This is a terrific world we live in loosbrew. We have to minimize the damage and act responsibly, and enjoy the world that God gave us. Plan don't ban.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is what I support, not restrictions
no restrictions is what causes extinction. look at the bear, wolf, tigers, elephants and all the other animals on the endagered speices list. many of which have been hunted just for a small portion of thier bodies to make jewelery or coats. but its ok now, because theyre protected. the natural world is a wonderful one, but the civilized world is somewhat backwards.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
sure and maybe in 200 years time we can have what we raped in a matter of months or years.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
i look at my tank in amazement and love every last piece of gravel in it. i cheerish it so much that i refuse to give it to someone that might not treat the animals with as much care as i do. i also think of what i have gotten myself into. i dont pine over my issues, i just simply realize them and know what i must do to make myself a better person out of it. its just a way to progress in my life without affected my environment.
loosbrew
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
sure and maybe in 200 years time we can have what we raped in a matter of months or years.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
i look at my tank in amazement and love every last piece of gravel in it. i cheerish it so much that i refuse to give it to someone that might not treat the animals with as much care as i do. i also think of what i have gotten myself into. i dont pine over my issues, i just simply realize them and know what i must do to make myself a better person out of it. its just a way to progress in my life without affected my environment.
loosbrew
Anyone who thinks that taking 15 tons per annum from the gbr is going to ruin that massive reef is displaying the kind of non-thinking sheep like behavior that politicians rely on to garner votes. If you can't see things in perspective you are doomed to be led around by others. There are major threats to our environment. I support environmental conservation with my wallet. Don't criticize me unless you can say the same. But I know when someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill while ignoring the larger issues which are not popular. You can sustainably harvest small percentages of corals from healthy reefs. You can't dynamite huge sections of reef for pavement and land fill. You can't dump fertilizer from farm runoff without fundamentally changing the local water chemistry. You can't warm the planet without macro effects. Get some perspective and don't be simple minded in your thinking. Thoughtless people can destroy this wonderful hobby. Don't be one of them.
A few salient facts for you anti-any form of wild collection guys, specifivally related to the proposed coral collection ban in Australia:
1) While I whole heartedly support propogation of corals, to get to the point where we have been able to propogate some corals with such ease, wild caught corals have have had to have been taken. If from day one, they had not been allowed to be collected there would be no hobby and how much would we know about coral propogation and indeed how much would we really care?
2) The marine aquarium hobby in Australia is unique... why? Because a) the hobby in Australia is small (perhaps 1-2% of the US market), b) the natural resource/collection area is very large, c) we do not export corals and other invertebrates (it is illegal), d) we do not import corals and other invertebrates, e) collection practises are probably the most tightly controlled and the best in the world. If the GBR is closed down as a collection area in Australia, the other few, more insignificant collection area in Australia will also probably follow suit and that will mean the end of the hobby in this country. OK you may say, so what? Well let me ask you this - what has closing coral collection in Florida and Hawaii achieved? Are the reefs in those locations any better off? Are the reefs in developing countries that have few controls and monitoring programs better off as a result of a major shift in the demand to these locations? Would it have been better if the US governement had focused more on serious problems like global warming and land run off? I am unaware of any scientific report that cites coral harvesting as a cause of any major concern to the GBR.
3) Consider this, there appears to be only one person who supports this ban in Australia and that is the senator who has the power to put it through...
IMO, this is an example of a sustainable resource that if properly manged poses no threat to this environment. Indeed, in Australia, the industry has a lot to offer in terms of educating people on what we have to lose if the real problems are ignored. We need to find more ways to live with our environment and benefit from it without harming it rather than oscillating between wrapping it in cotton wool or ignoring the consequences of our actions on it in the name of economic prosperity. This is a perfect example and IMO a model for the rest of the region so, why would anybody support such a ban?
It is interesting to note that at the same time as putting forward this ban, our environment minister (the senator Hill in question) is supporting President Bush's "we don't need to stick to things like the Kyoto treaty because we are special" stance and also allowing uranium mining in another world heritage area in Australia. See this for what it is - a vote grabbing political stunt.
Just some things to think about,
Gavan
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: GavAn ]
1) While I whole heartedly support propogation of corals, to get to the point where we have been able to propogate some corals with such ease, wild caught corals have have had to have been taken. If from day one, they had not been allowed to be collected there would be no hobby and how much would we know about coral propogation and indeed how much would we really care?
2) The marine aquarium hobby in Australia is unique... why? Because a) the hobby in Australia is small (perhaps 1-2% of the US market), b) the natural resource/collection area is very large, c) we do not export corals and other invertebrates (it is illegal), d) we do not import corals and other invertebrates, e) collection practises are probably the most tightly controlled and the best in the world. If the GBR is closed down as a collection area in Australia, the other few, more insignificant collection area in Australia will also probably follow suit and that will mean the end of the hobby in this country. OK you may say, so what? Well let me ask you this - what has closing coral collection in Florida and Hawaii achieved? Are the reefs in those locations any better off? Are the reefs in developing countries that have few controls and monitoring programs better off as a result of a major shift in the demand to these locations? Would it have been better if the US governement had focused more on serious problems like global warming and land run off? I am unaware of any scientific report that cites coral harvesting as a cause of any major concern to the GBR.
3) Consider this, there appears to be only one person who supports this ban in Australia and that is the senator who has the power to put it through...
IMO, this is an example of a sustainable resource that if properly manged poses no threat to this environment. Indeed, in Australia, the industry has a lot to offer in terms of educating people on what we have to lose if the real problems are ignored. We need to find more ways to live with our environment and benefit from it without harming it rather than oscillating between wrapping it in cotton wool or ignoring the consequences of our actions on it in the name of economic prosperity. This is a perfect example and IMO a model for the rest of the region so, why would anybody support such a ban?
It is interesting to note that at the same time as putting forward this ban, our environment minister (the senator Hill in question) is supporting President Bush's "we don't need to stick to things like the Kyoto treaty because we are special" stance and also allowing uranium mining in another world heritage area in Australia. See this for what it is - a vote grabbing political stunt.
Just some things to think about,
Gavan
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: GavAn ]
Because we think you have done such an excellent job with your beautiful reefs that we don't want anything to happen to them.
Most of us have seen the destruction in other areas of the world.
Tourists flip floping around destroyed the reefs in Kenting in southermost Taiwan in a couple of years.
Most of us have seen the destruction in other areas of the world.
Tourists flip floping around destroyed the reefs in Kenting in southermost Taiwan in a couple of years.
Siting hear reading this topick, Iget so many questions and statments going through my head I dont know what to say. Sofar I've ben abel to come up with a couple of ideas.
1) pertymuch everybodys had a good point for eather side.
2) Now I could be wrong about this, but if i remember right the GBR is one of the oldest living thing on the planet. If not the oldest.
So I ges the point i'm trying to make is this. Look how long it took to get that big!
200 tons is alot of coral to be pulling of ther in a year. And yes I have LR in my tank also (figi and panamanion) about 30# of it.
I'm not trying to call anybody names or say whos right or wrong. The GBR is on of the greatest tresurs mother nater gave us and look what we did to it and other reefs around the world. I'm jest as guilty as the next person out there. Thanks for listning. just wanted to ad my opinion to the topic.
sorry about the spelling!
1) pertymuch everybodys had a good point for eather side.
2) Now I could be wrong about this, but if i remember right the GBR is one of the oldest living thing on the planet. If not the oldest.
So I ges the point i'm trying to make is this. Look how long it took to get that big!
200 tons is alot of coral to be pulling of ther in a year. And yes I have LR in my tank also (figi and panamanion) about 30# of it.
I'm not trying to call anybody names or say whos right or wrong. The GBR is on of the greatest tresurs mother nater gave us and look what we did to it and other reefs around the world. I'm jest as guilty as the next person out there. Thanks for listning. just wanted to ad my opinion to the topic.
sorry about the spelling!
I am very proud to see overwhelming support for conservation in our hobby.
The outdated thinking of mining our oceans for every bit of rock, coral and fish has clearly past.
For this reason, I am a firm supporter of this board and will continue to help where I can both in the preservation of our reefs and the enjoyment of our hobby.
The outdated thinking of mining our oceans for every bit of rock, coral and fish has clearly past.
For this reason, I am a firm supporter of this board and will continue to help where I can both in the preservation of our reefs and the enjoyment of our hobby.
Sorry i'm back again. Thers one more thing i want to shar with you out there. Expesialy you loosbrew. mabe this will help?
the first time I ever went hunting my first leson my grandfather gave my was a statment!
He tould me allways remember YOU DON'T INHEARET THE EARTH FROM YOUR ANCESTERS. YOU KEEP IT IN TRUST FOR YOUR CHILDREN! It took a long time to understand what he ment. wish i wouldhave listend closer!
the first time I ever went hunting my first leson my grandfather gave my was a statment!
He tould me allways remember YOU DON'T INHEARET THE EARTH FROM YOUR ANCESTERS. YOU KEEP IT IN TRUST FOR YOUR CHILDREN! It took a long time to understand what he ment. wish i wouldhave listend closer!
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