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Well said Matt.
Glenn
Glenn
Is Reefs.org going down the tubes?
- Thread starter DaktariEd
- Start date
I'm a relative newcomer to BBs in general and this one in particular. I have to say that I have enjoyed many exchanges of info and ideas during the time I have particapipated here. I used to enjoy it so much that I devoted most of my spare time to reading and responding here. I still check in once in awhile at one other BB and regularily check my own, but most of my time was spent here.
Lately, I'm not spending as much time here or on any other BB but my own. I'm hoping that will change when some of the people here and elsewhere, that need to be reading, studying, and finding out just how little they REALLY know, go back to school. Hopefully they will learn more about courtesy, being a bit less judgemental, how to take constructive criticism, and mostly how to think for themselves. I know that's a lot to hope for, since so many have finished school and died of old age without learning a single one of them. I keep hearing that our children are our hope for the future. I look around and think the future looks pretty bleak. Just one more thing that I pray to God for, that I'm wrong.
Some people may feel that I'm too long winded and way out in left field. However in a few months I'll be celebrating my 25th anniversary of keeping saltwater tanks and my posts are diminishing in number. My public posts might stop altogether. I've already started to post some private email responses. It's regretable since more could benefit if they remained public. It's even more regretable because some of the people I've enjoyed exchanging ideas with are now doing the same thing. People can only take so much BS then they are going to start doing things that are more pleasureable and rewarding.
I have only 2 things left in this world that still give me great pleasure. My tanks and helping people. Not necessarily in that order, but it might be. But why would I want to endure the flaming of snot nosed twits when I could just as easily be in playing with my tanks. It's no skin off my nose when they have a problem. But if no one else helps them and I think I can, I give it a shot. I'd have quit posting completely already if it were not for the much appreciated words of thanks I've received for helping some people out.
I know that the day I quit making my ideas public, some will rejoice, others won't notice, and a few will shed a tear.
Lately, I'm not spending as much time here or on any other BB but my own. I'm hoping that will change when some of the people here and elsewhere, that need to be reading, studying, and finding out just how little they REALLY know, go back to school. Hopefully they will learn more about courtesy, being a bit less judgemental, how to take constructive criticism, and mostly how to think for themselves. I know that's a lot to hope for, since so many have finished school and died of old age without learning a single one of them. I keep hearing that our children are our hope for the future. I look around and think the future looks pretty bleak. Just one more thing that I pray to God for, that I'm wrong.
Some people may feel that I'm too long winded and way out in left field. However in a few months I'll be celebrating my 25th anniversary of keeping saltwater tanks and my posts are diminishing in number. My public posts might stop altogether. I've already started to post some private email responses. It's regretable since more could benefit if they remained public. It's even more regretable because some of the people I've enjoyed exchanging ideas with are now doing the same thing. People can only take so much BS then they are going to start doing things that are more pleasureable and rewarding.
I have only 2 things left in this world that still give me great pleasure. My tanks and helping people. Not necessarily in that order, but it might be. But why would I want to endure the flaming of snot nosed twits when I could just as easily be in playing with my tanks. It's no skin off my nose when they have a problem. But if no one else helps them and I think I can, I give it a shot. I'd have quit posting completely already if it were not for the much appreciated words of thanks I've received for helping some people out.
I know that the day I quit making my ideas public, some will rejoice, others won't notice, and a few will shed a tear.
another thing we need to consider is while reading from a computer screen, we are communicating without the use of inflection or body movement to help convey the message. without that sometimes we come across more harshly than we intended - choose your words carefully. criticism goes down best when "sandwiched" between two positive comments. if people deserve to be flamed than try to do it somewhat tastefully.
I agree that there are good LFS. I am fortunate to have two very good ones near me, as well as some marginal and some downright poor ones. Unfortunately, it is only once a hobbyist gets to a certain level in the hobby that they can differentiate between the two. By then, some of the value has already been lost.
Same logic goes for books. While everyone says to read a bunch of books before posting your question on these boards or attempting to keep a tank, there are plenty of books on the bookshelves that are better left unread due to outdated, inaccurate or incomplete information. You can easily read 3 books and still not know what you really need to know. Reading is good, but it does need to be somewhat selective.
I firmly believe that when all is said and done, the information that can be found here is generally the most up-to-date and reliable that can be found. Problems can frequently find a resolution quickly and with a happy result. Mistakes others make can be a lesson to all of us and help prevent us from making the same mistake. Attitudes that prevent or hamper this sharing of information only hurt the hobby and doesn't help it even though that may be the flammers intent.
And finally, nobody in this hobby, no matter how long they have been in it, is above making a stupid mistake or an ill-advised calculated risk. Nor is it possible to have learned everything there is to learn. Some of the best personal websites include information on not only what works, but what did not work as well. Why is this board any different? And even when they know better, most people including myself are guilty of things such as impulse buying on occasion and dealing with the unforseen consequences. It is nice to think that there is a pool of knowledgeable people/peers willing to advise someone like me without treating me like an idiot.
--- Ken
Same logic goes for books. While everyone says to read a bunch of books before posting your question on these boards or attempting to keep a tank, there are plenty of books on the bookshelves that are better left unread due to outdated, inaccurate or incomplete information. You can easily read 3 books and still not know what you really need to know. Reading is good, but it does need to be somewhat selective.
I firmly believe that when all is said and done, the information that can be found here is generally the most up-to-date and reliable that can be found. Problems can frequently find a resolution quickly and with a happy result. Mistakes others make can be a lesson to all of us and help prevent us from making the same mistake. Attitudes that prevent or hamper this sharing of information only hurt the hobby and doesn't help it even though that may be the flammers intent.
And finally, nobody in this hobby, no matter how long they have been in it, is above making a stupid mistake or an ill-advised calculated risk. Nor is it possible to have learned everything there is to learn. Some of the best personal websites include information on not only what works, but what did not work as well. Why is this board any different? And even when they know better, most people including myself are guilty of things such as impulse buying on occasion and dealing with the unforseen consequences. It is nice to think that there is a pool of knowledgeable people/peers willing to advise someone like me without treating me like an idiot.
--- Ken
Quillen, you said "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all", dont forget that your definition of nice is relative. If my mother wanted to keep a Trigger in a 29 gallon tank I would say the same thing that I do on these boards. There are people on these boards who have spent the time to learn about marine life beyond "isn't that a pretty one". How would you handle such situations when we are talking about the life of these animals that we chose to keep. When the person posts to the board saying that they just purchased a Naso Tang for their 29 and then the next post is yea, I have one in my 29 too and he is doing just super, are we not to post that we think this is a poor choice simply because it may hurt his feelings? I hope you take this post the way I intend it, I am simply trying to discuss this topic so we can all be better hobbiest.
Ken, you said "people who come to this board are flammed for trying to come up to speed", could you point out to me were this has happened more than 1% of the time, I mean were this has happened to a person who was really trying to learn. Again, (I feel like I have to point this out in this thread) nothing personal.
Steve
Ken, you said "people who come to this board are flammed for trying to come up to speed", could you point out to me were this has happened more than 1% of the time, I mean were this has happened to a person who was really trying to learn. Again, (I feel like I have to point this out in this thread) nothing personal.
Steve
After reading a lot of responses to this post, there is still hope for BB's like this. The thing I seek from this BB is the experience of others.
I KNOW you must read, read, read. Well I do, but anyone here pick just one subject and read 10 books, 100-200 posts and the replys and poll a half dozen LFS about that subject. Will you end up with "one clear, dicisive" ansewer of end up totally mixed up?
I feel I need to read to find my options and then look to the experienced to see what has worked. Then I feel I can form my own plan of action with a little comfort level.
[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Nibbs ]
I KNOW you must read, read, read. Well I do, but anyone here pick just one subject and read 10 books, 100-200 posts and the replys and poll a half dozen LFS about that subject. Will you end up with "one clear, dicisive" ansewer of end up totally mixed up?
I feel I need to read to find my options and then look to the experienced to see what has worked. Then I feel I can form my own plan of action with a little comfort level.
[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Nibbs ]
SPC,
I basically agree with what your saying. I think that it is how the information is presented that is sometimes at fault. From frequent users of this board, when someone new innocently asks why their 3 tangs aren't doing well in their 55 gallon tank, the attitude tends to be "HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO REPEAT OURSELVES ON THIS TOPIC" when in fact it is completely new data to the poster and yet the response comes across as though an adult is chastizing a small child. And instead of taking the time to write out a complete reponse, often it is given as a terse sentence that leaves more questions open than answered. I would not argue that the information is probably technically correct. It's just the delivery of it that lacks sometimes. I have to believe that a lot of people just sigh and decide to find their info somewhere else and a chance to further educate is forever lost.
--- Ken
I basically agree with what your saying. I think that it is how the information is presented that is sometimes at fault. From frequent users of this board, when someone new innocently asks why their 3 tangs aren't doing well in their 55 gallon tank, the attitude tends to be "HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO REPEAT OURSELVES ON THIS TOPIC" when in fact it is completely new data to the poster and yet the response comes across as though an adult is chastizing a small child. And instead of taking the time to write out a complete reponse, often it is given as a terse sentence that leaves more questions open than answered. I would not argue that the information is probably technically correct. It's just the delivery of it that lacks sometimes. I have to believe that a lot of people just sigh and decide to find their info somewhere else and a chance to further educate is forever lost.
--- Ken
This board is one of the worst boards I regularly visit in terms of several behavious, flaming being just one of them.
Flaming is self indulgent. One can justify it by saying "I am trying to save lives", but it does not work. You alienate and perpetuate igorance...
"I don't mean to be harsh, but next time please ask here BEFORE you purchase..." is likely to have a positive affect on the number of animals killed.
"You F**King idiot..." helps no one.
The other issues with this board are:
1) People perpetuating myth with NO EXPERIENCE. If YOU personally do not know from experience, do not comment, or prefix with "I have heard that...". This is predominantly a U.S. cultural trait (I don't know why??), which is why I normally stick to European and Australian boards.
2) Newbies being too lazy to do a search before they post a question... "What is better, 6500K or 10,000K MH?". I don't even consider replying to these posts as there are literally 100s in the archives if people bother to look.
Just my inflamatory $0.02
Mark
Flaming is self indulgent. One can justify it by saying "I am trying to save lives", but it does not work. You alienate and perpetuate igorance...
"I don't mean to be harsh, but next time please ask here BEFORE you purchase..." is likely to have a positive affect on the number of animals killed.
"You F**King idiot..." helps no one.
The other issues with this board are:
1) People perpetuating myth with NO EXPERIENCE. If YOU personally do not know from experience, do not comment, or prefix with "I have heard that...". This is predominantly a U.S. cultural trait (I don't know why??), which is why I normally stick to European and Australian boards.
2) Newbies being too lazy to do a search before they post a question... "What is better, 6500K or 10,000K MH?". I don't even consider replying to these posts as there are literally 100s in the archives if people bother to look.
Just my inflamatory $0.02
Mark
O.K.,
It seem that everything's been said, and good points made. I don't resopnd to flames, as they are pointless to the situation posted. As in life, don't associate with negative people. As far as newbies posting obvious questions, I am coming to realize that there are a lot of reefers in "small town america" that have limited access to the publications that we hold so dear. Whether I order from my LFS, Amazon or Chapters, I have to pay $150.00/book, and I consider myself making a good living. I can't remember what it's like being a teenager and looking for truthful answers with all the marketing crap that's out there. I'm sure that the newbies think that their situations are unique, and want a more personalized answer that searches will provide. The best that we more experienced reefers can do is #1 - direct them to the appropriate past thread, and #2 - answer their question.
I would like, however , to be able to access the library of this board with more ease. It seems to me that a standard search only reveals a couple of months history. Am I doing something wrong?
To the original question - Is Reefs.org going down the tubes?
It is only if we let it.
Didn't you guys elect Bush? Let's not let THAT happen again!
Mitch
It seem that everything's been said, and good points made. I don't resopnd to flames, as they are pointless to the situation posted. As in life, don't associate with negative people. As far as newbies posting obvious questions, I am coming to realize that there are a lot of reefers in "small town america" that have limited access to the publications that we hold so dear. Whether I order from my LFS, Amazon or Chapters, I have to pay $150.00/book, and I consider myself making a good living. I can't remember what it's like being a teenager and looking for truthful answers with all the marketing crap that's out there. I'm sure that the newbies think that their situations are unique, and want a more personalized answer that searches will provide. The best that we more experienced reefers can do is #1 - direct them to the appropriate past thread, and #2 - answer their question.
I would like, however , to be able to access the library of this board with more ease. It seems to me that a standard search only reveals a couple of months history. Am I doing something wrong?
To the original question - Is Reefs.org going down the tubes?
It is only if we let it.
Didn't you guys elect Bush? Let's not let THAT happen again!
Mitch
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment, Ed. Having participated here on and off for the last 3 years, (ie within the last 3 months) I'm witnessing more and more disturbing threads. Granted, this trend is not isolated to reefs.org alone. But I agree it's an issue we should address, and I'm glad someone had the assertiveness and concern to bring this to people's attention.
Keep in mind that 99.99% of these "dumb" questions are sincere.
Keep in mind that flaming a help-seeking person who has performed a "reef taboo" isn't going to help the situation any.
Keep in mind that advice is more likely heeded when offered with civility.
Keep in mind we have minors on this board, and that our sometimes less-then-exemplary behavior does trickle down.
Keep in mind that opinions are just that.
Keep in mind there's absolutely nothing wrong with being wrong.
Keep in mind that "I don't know" is a healthy phrase.
Keep in mind that we're all here for the same reason: reefkeeping.
Keep in mind that I got carried away.
BTW, visit The Sump once in a while. It's absolutely astonishing the degree of civility displayed there, given the inflamatory nature of some of the posts.
Keep in mind that 99.99% of these "dumb" questions are sincere.
Keep in mind that flaming a help-seeking person who has performed a "reef taboo" isn't going to help the situation any.
Keep in mind that advice is more likely heeded when offered with civility.
Keep in mind we have minors on this board, and that our sometimes less-then-exemplary behavior does trickle down.
Keep in mind that opinions are just that.
Keep in mind there's absolutely nothing wrong with being wrong.
Keep in mind that "I don't know" is a healthy phrase.
Keep in mind that we're all here for the same reason: reefkeeping.
Keep in mind that I got carried away.
BTW, visit The Sump once in a while. It's absolutely astonishing the degree of civility displayed there, given the inflamatory nature of some of the posts.
Unfortunately, that's not the way it happens. People go to the LFS and they buy a tank and setup, and they think the LFS is going to give them good information. Part of the whole learning process is learning that the LFS is not going to give you advice that you should hang your hat on without verifying it.
Not everyone in the hobby is hard-core. Some dabble in the hobby, some want a pretty tank in their house but don't want to mess with it, there are all kinds.
I love the hobby, I read and study. Not everyone does. Some people are just learning to read and study. Some people never will. Flaming will not change that, and if anything, will make people LESS likely to do so or to seek out help and/or information.
Yes, you are right Mouse. There are lives at stake here. And flamers are endangering those lives--by turning people away by making them afraid to ask for help or to relate their experiences to the benefit of others, because they are afraid to do so.
Not everyone in the hobby is hard-core. Some dabble in the hobby, some want a pretty tank in their house but don't want to mess with it, there are all kinds.
I love the hobby, I read and study. Not everyone does. Some people are just learning to read and study. Some people never will. Flaming will not change that, and if anything, will make people LESS likely to do so or to seek out help and/or information.
Yes, you are right Mouse. There are lives at stake here. And flamers are endangering those lives--by turning people away by making them afraid to ask for help or to relate their experiences to the benefit of others, because they are afraid to do so.
DaktariEd,
I share your concerns - thanks for voicing them.
Leonard and jdeets - well said!
"A soft answer turns away wrath." Translation: a carrot is usually more effective than a stick.
Twelve years teaching in high school, not to mention dealing with my own teenagers has borne this out.
regards,
rw
I share your concerns - thanks for voicing them.
Leonard and jdeets - well said!
"A soft answer turns away wrath." Translation: a carrot is usually more effective than a stick.
Twelve years teaching in high school, not to mention dealing with my own teenagers has borne this out.
regards,
rw
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MattM:
<STRONG>James -
Agreed. I just get tired of seeing the "all LFS suck" type of comment. 95% of them do, but as a promiment member of the remaining 5%, the generalizations sometimes bother me.
[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matt, I'm just picking back up on this thread very late at night and wanted to say that yes IMO all LFS's are not created equal. You have been an invaluable source of knowledge to this BB in my relatively brief residence here. My local LFS is and has always been a tremendous source of help and knowledge. As with life in general it kind of depends on the character of the person you are dealing with. I've been at this for a while and just want to say to anyone out there that none of us have all the answers. We are all still learning as we go. This hobby has flip flopped and 180'ed on numerous occasions in the past 10 years. I know I was there the whole time. Lets all try to get together more in the future and hopefully draw more input from past and future members.
<STRONG>James -
Agreed. I just get tired of seeing the "all LFS suck" type of comment. 95% of them do, but as a promiment member of the remaining 5%, the generalizations sometimes bother me.
[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matt, I'm just picking back up on this thread very late at night and wanted to say that yes IMO all LFS's are not created equal. You have been an invaluable source of knowledge to this BB in my relatively brief residence here. My local LFS is and has always been a tremendous source of help and knowledge. As with life in general it kind of depends on the character of the person you are dealing with. I've been at this for a while and just want to say to anyone out there that none of us have all the answers. We are all still learning as we go. This hobby has flip flopped and 180'ed on numerous occasions in the past 10 years. I know I was there the whole time. Lets all try to get together more in the future and hopefully draw more input from past and future members.
Howdy,
I hate to say it, but flaming is a natural by-product of the internet and its disassociative forms of communication. People feel they can say whatever they want when they are not face to face with another person.
As for flaming on this board, ignore them. The second I see a flaming post, I just scroll right on by. No sense in letting some Neanderthal spoil a perfectly good post. It's just like T.V., if you don't like what your watching, change the channel.
As for "dumb" questions, there is no such thing. I too get a little tired when people don't do searches for a subject, but not everyone is saavy enough to know that it is available, or how to do it. I typically try to post a suggestion that they do a search because the topic has been covered over and over again.
I recently took my email off my profile because I had some fool privately email me and cuss me out for not agreeing with him. I politely emailed him back to let him know that his email fell under the Federal spamming laws, and he replied with more profanity. So much for trying to educate people
You just gotta let the crap from these hot-heads roll off your back. Keep the good advice and comments coming, they do help those of us with open minds and civil tempers.
Thanks,
Scott.
I hate to say it, but flaming is a natural by-product of the internet and its disassociative forms of communication. People feel they can say whatever they want when they are not face to face with another person.
As for flaming on this board, ignore them. The second I see a flaming post, I just scroll right on by. No sense in letting some Neanderthal spoil a perfectly good post. It's just like T.V., if you don't like what your watching, change the channel.
As for "dumb" questions, there is no such thing. I too get a little tired when people don't do searches for a subject, but not everyone is saavy enough to know that it is available, or how to do it. I typically try to post a suggestion that they do a search because the topic has been covered over and over again.
I recently took my email off my profile because I had some fool privately email me and cuss me out for not agreeing with him. I politely emailed him back to let him know that his email fell under the Federal spamming laws, and he replied with more profanity. So much for trying to educate people
You just gotta let the crap from these hot-heads roll off your back. Keep the good advice and comments coming, they do help those of us with open minds and civil tempers.
Thanks,
Scott.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
<STRONG>Didn't you guys elect Bush? Let's not let THAT happen again.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mitch -
Many would argue "No we didn't, that's the problem".
Sorry, couldn't resist, but I do not want to open this 55 gallon barrel of worms again!
<STRONG>Didn't you guys elect Bush? Let's not let THAT happen again.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mitch -
Many would argue "No we didn't, that's the problem".
Sorry, couldn't resist, but I do not want to open this 55 gallon barrel of worms again!
whoops.. yes, that was flamer instead of "lamer", I'm sorry - typing on my parent's weird little keyboard in between covering myself with paint and beautifing the lawn. I adore my LFS btw, I end up talking with them from anything from fish to men when I go in.
Our business relationship has become personable, they are such a nice couple. I haven't gotten any emails cussing me out, let me personally say I'm sorry for when other people do wasteful things like that.
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