Is Reefs.org going down the tubes?

[DaktariEd]

More than a year ago when I was researching SW/Reef tanks, I came across Reefs.org and started to read. A few months later I registered so I could both read and respond, and post my own questions.

The help I received was very helpful...priceless in fact, compared to the advice I received from the LFS and the books that I had read.

The people were friendly and responded in a positive manner, politely correcting when needed. One of my early posts was even answered by Dr. Ron Shimek (I was impressed that he even read such boards)...and who I believe may have left this board for another (I wonder why?).

Recently I have seen a shift in attitude on this Board toward a harsher, less friendly atmosphere (See the thread "Today's Life lesson"). People are being "flamed" for posting ideas and experiences that could & should serve a very real purpose: to educate the new and inexperienced among us (even the experienced for that matter!).

I would like to see this Board return to it's previous helpful and positive atmosphere, before it goes down the tubes.

To do so will require those among us who are prone to flaming to refrain from roasting people. PLEASE! Personally I don't see any benefit to flaming but to appease the flamer into thinking he/she has really accomplished something. Just the opposite is more likely.

Let's try to keep it positive and uplifting...

No doubt this thread may result in my being flamed...

My 2 cents,

Ed

 

[Kalkbreath]

If I started a thread:" Gee this is funny, my grouper ate all my other fish, or,,,,,,WOW this is cool, my TWO clown triggers ate eachothers EYES out fighting and now they are both swimming around blind in the tank ,bunping against the glass..... This is not funny....The Blow torch was pointed at the HUMOR .

 

[Brendan]

How dare you try to make a better world DaktariEd!

 

[Mouse]

First rule of fish keeping - Read, Read, Read, Read and then read again. This was no 'Newbe' error.

Sometimes people need to have it told to them how stupid there mistakes are. Think how people would react if everyone went "oh well, these things happen, dont let it get you down, try again tomorrow, never mind about the little fishy"

NOOOOO they need to feel the heat of the torch of correction. NOOOO YOU SHALL NOT LEAD THESE ANIMALS TO THEIR DEATH, THERE ARE LIFES AT STAKE HERE!

If you want to go ahead and preach from the fluffy school of fish keeping then feel free. Personally these are reefs, fish keeping at the hard core. The base knowlege of every participant should reflect that.

 

[Neal358]

dont feel bad its not just this board i asked the same question 2 tims at difrent times by mistake and some one made sure i knew this by making a nast replie telling me to "give it a rest" this was on a difrent board

 

[highrpm]

DaktariEd

You are right, I have also noticed this board starting to go down hill lately. Urfortunately from my experiences this happens to a lot of BB's. Go check out a BB about cars, they are 10X worse!

It seems to happen to every board, gets worse, people leave, gets a little better, new people join, gets worse, etc......

just my opinion!

 

[Anonymous]

Well said reefworm...im a highschool teacher and have experienced the soft answer turning away wrath. Plus most of the people on the boards were considered "newbies" at one time and prob. had the same questions that the new newbies have now

 

[tlc]

i think some people are experiencing REEF RAGE. lets just stare into our tanks and relax.

 

[Keith wants a Reef]

Some of the smart gentler/kinder people might regret this: NEWBIES - If you are being flamed monitor the posts and send a question\message directly to an individual that you feel won't treat you like your an idiot. I have done this on occasion and EVERYONE of them has taken the time to share their knowledge.
As some other poster said no one person KNOWS IT ALL. DaktariEd thanks for bringing this up.
And remember read.read.read...
There really are some outstanding individuals that visit this board, and you know who you are. I personally thank all of you for sharing your knowledge.

 

[Nibbs]

DaktariEd,

I agree with you comments. I am also a new to this. About eight months ago I relyed almost totaly on this BB for information before purchasing or going to a LFS. Used to get all kinds of responses.

Now, after posting 3 recent questions, and hardly no responses. The posts that get a lot of response seem to be the long time regulars.

I don't mind getting told harshly, if I srewed up, I proably deserve it. I think the flaming is a bit much though, I think twice now before posting a ?. I don't mind what type of response, just to get some responses. Until recently I did rely on the experience of those that have been doing this for some time. But there are a couple at LFS who have been much more help latly. Not tring to sell me anything, just giving me the answers I am looking for.

[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Nibbs ]

 

[Quillen]

I also agree and have found need to point out that such a thing isn't helpful in a thread. It normally helps when you say - hey you, email me to continue this or report it to someone nice & in control. When I started coming here for helpful advice, the first thing my ex told me was he stopped coming from all the nasty people.

 

[SPC]

I think what we have to define is the word "flame" as it pertains to the boards. It seems to me that it is different for different people. There are some people who come here looking for real help, and some who are only wanting to here from people who can reinforce there thoughts. I dont see the first getting flamed at all on this board, I see people trying to help them. The second poster has already made up their mind on what they are going to do, someone posts behind them saying "yea you can keep a trigger in a 29", and thats it. If someone disagrees with their view, and even does it in a civil manner, I see some people saying that they were flamed.
On the life lessons thread I saw the original posters remarks as being flippant for having placed his fish in danger, Mr P called him on it and was then flamed with personal attacks. Now, maybe Mr P came on a bit strong for others taste, but the backing the original poster got was incredible to me. How should Mr P, or anyone for that matter have handled this situation? Are we to be quiet and let people think that reef.org encourages these practices? Do we continue to use the "everybody makes mistakes" theory on this board when information is so readilly available in the year 2001?
One other note, I noticed that this silly Life lessons thread received about twice as many posts as the Erick Borneman thread, I find that a bit disappointing, but I think it answers the question of why people can have better discussions in the sump than in this forum.
Steve

 

[kazzoo]

I guess I am going to have to visit the sump!

 

[Quillen]

I look at a flame as anything you couldn't tell your signifigant other, mother, or boss. Just because its the net doesn't give a free rein to nastiness, although that may just be some of the people's personality poking through. It is sad if people actually treats others like this in real life, call the therapist!

Everyone has different thoughts on a topic, so the old rules apply.. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all..... Your thoughts are not law unless you are the ruler of your own small country

, even then a world allience may decide you are unfit to domineer others..... and There may be anywhere from 0-infinity of God(s) depending who you ask, but I don't remember ever learning about the fish tank God in "world religion", "religions through out history", or "Faith in the USA."

Okay, so I am being silly.... I do wish some people on the board didn't act like a frogfish though .

 

[bowfront]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neal358:
<STRONG>dont feel bad its not just this board i asked the same question 2 tims at difrent times by mistake and some one made sure i knew this by making a nast replie telling me to "give it a rest" this was on a difrent board</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm….guess that's me. I don't normally go around telling people to "give it a break" but in this case Neal asked a question concerning two different skimmer types on one day, to which I think he got a fair response. The very next day he turned around and asked basically the same question. Maybe I wasn't gentle enough in my post last night. Anyway here are the threads folks you decide if this was a flame or some constructive criticism.

Thread 1 posted 7/18
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=929282ebc190905ab96f8c2e00dc26de&threadid=29662

Thread 2 posted 7/19
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=f8f0cf2f6c809186771dc73afdbe3607&threadid=29837

As far as this board going down I'd have to agree. These BB's are only as good as the people that contribute. Personally it looks like a few people have bailed recently. I would like to say that some of the minds on here are absolutely incredible. I've learned a lot since finding this site and hope to learn more in the future. Neal sorry if I appeared nasty last night but IMO there is a time and a place. Injoy and get some use out of your new skimmer before making any future decisions.

 

[KenH]

Good post. I've had the same thought lately myself. The long term successful hobbyists that others can learn from seem to be disappearing from this board. I too believe it is due to the lowering of standards over the last year or so. More flames, more arrogance, less information, less value in general.

Here is my take on this subject...

While reading in this hobby is indeed important, to expect people who are just getting started to have completed studying the top 2-4 books prior to even thinking about starting a tank is simply unrealistic. Most people simply do not realize that there is a significant knowledge base they should have before they enter this hobby. They simply do not know that they do not know! What other hobby requires this level of knowledge before getting started and why would people intuitively understand that it applies here? It is only after problems arise that many people realize there is more to this thing than sticking some water, rocks and fish in a tank. They go looking for info, find a msg board like this and get flammed for their efforts as they try to come up to speed.

Interestingly, it has been my observation that some of the worse flammers are at the lower end of the experience scale in this hobby as well. Worse yet, many of the flames are based on what the current fad thinking is and are not necessarily what's even proven right in the long run. This only serves to slow the advancement of the hobby down since most people are unwilling to express an incident, idea or a point of view that is not in keeping with the current fad thinking or that reflects badly on them as a reef keeper. Learning from our own as well as others mistakes are mostly how this hobby actually advances.

I don't see many flames from individuals who I know to be on fairly advanced levels of this hobby. Perhaps it is because to get to that level, they have all made some of those same stupid (in hindsight) mistakes and have lost their fair share of specimens due to insufficient knowledge. As the saying goes: "If we learn from our mistakes, I'm getting one heck of an education"

For those of you on the soapbox who work in an/a LFS:

Do you sell Catalina gobies and Gonioporas? If so, you tell your customers that the specimens they are handing over their hard earned cash for have a small chance of surviving long term and let them decide if they want to take the risk based on thier experience level or do you expect them to figure it out on their own from reading a book?

Do you ask about lighting before handing over that Acro, or worse do you house that Acro under conditions that you expect the hobbyist not to?

Do you display multiple tangs crammed together in your small sales tanks?

Do you keep 4 mandarins in a fish only sales tank with 2lbs of dead rock?

Do you have more fish in your tanks than you expect your customers to keep in theirs?

Are your death rates lower than the average hobbyists?

Do you quarantine your fish to help prevent spreading diseases to the tank of the hobbyist who buys from you?

If any of the above are true, do you have disclaimers of "Don't try this at home, we only do it here because we plan to sell the stuff before it has a chance to kill each other or otherwise die" posted in conspicuous places?

I'll leave you with this last thought: Is a captive breed clownfish life more sacred than a captive breed goldfish life for some reason?

--- Ken

 

[MattM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jdeets:
<STRONG>Part of the whole learning process is learning that the LFS is not going to give you advice that you should hang your hat on without verifying it.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most LFS. Not all.

 

[jdeets]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MattM:
<STRONG>

Most LFS. Not all.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regardless of the LFS, there's not one out there you should take at face value without some form of verification, whether it be by reading or posting to a forum. That doesn't go just apply to LFSs, but to anyone that gives you advice. Don't take it at face value without verifying it. I didn't say that all LFSs give crappy advice--just that you should verify information that you are given.

 

[cubera]

Sometimes feelings are hurt accidentally. I know I have been 'flamed' on plenty but sometimes I just took it the wrong way and sometimes when I've 'flamed' I just wrote my reply the wrong way. This is a very good post because it shows mostly good people with good intentions. Reefers are as different as LFSs, some are nice, helpfull, and friendly and some could care less about anything but taking your money. Boards like this give retailers a great opportunity to see what people need and want and make changes accordingly. Posts like this are very good for the hobby/industry at large. Thank you.

 

[MattM]

James -

Agreed. I just get tired of seeing the "all LFS suck" type of comment. 95% of them do, but as a promiment member of the remaining 5%, the generalizations sometimes bother me.

[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]