Is Reefs.org going down the tubes?

[ging]

I am a newbie so I feel like I can post a reply to this subject. When I made a mistake and lost a fish I was given good constructive criticism. From that point I always ask before I get any new fish for my tank. I have been reading this BB for about 3 mths and have seen some serious smack down, but it seems to be for people that get inappropriate fish and ask and argue with the people that give answers to their questions. I think the post that started this thread was pretty harsh on the guy and it would have been better to treat his experience in a more constructive way. I have read tons of posts about the mandarin fish and the ongoing debate on keeping them, and the daily question of what is wrong with my 4 tangs that I have in my 55 gal tank. I think to myself, how mean to get a fish that you will eventually starve to death and will never fit in the environment that I have picked for it. I myself at times debate whether I should ask a certain question in fear of the smack down and research before I ask. There are times that I cannot find the answers and break down to get some help. I am now getting to the point to where I read some newbie questions and get thrilled when I know the answer, but do not reply as I feel that it is not my place yet to give an experienced educated answer. I do feel that some of the aggressive answers to questions keep people from asking for help and give them opportunity to make bad choices.

ging

 

[Quillen]

Well, in science, everything is quantitative or qualitative (micro, genetics, chem) - incredible percision and accuracy. On the board, this is not possible - you most likely have a problem with flaming if someone says you do. Social skills are SUCH a benefit to all areas of life. If you make someone else uncomfortable, isn't that reason enough to say you are sorry? Just try to give your opinion and not be confrontational (or say this is my experience). I would never talk to my mother the way some of the people do on the board, how disrespectful and rude. Personally, I don't listen to the negitive people, I think "bete garcon" (or something to that point). I giggle at the businessmen that belittle the people who study marine biology. If you like, I can PM you back if you want to know if you are a lamer

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[Quillen]

nullInformation in its pure form holds no bias, it is simply information and may not always be fact. You can find laws, theories, etc in SCI/CHM, etc. I can disagree with people on here, but I don't yell at them. If you want to have a negitive debate, then do it in private. Why drag everyone down? If someone doesn't listen to what you say, then don't post info to them. If every one could DEAL with it as a well adjusted adult, then no one would be upset or leaving the board for flaming

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[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Quillen ]

 

[gazpep]

I don't think flaming accomplishes a lot.
Do we really think that anyone in this hobby, particularly if they've taken the time to register on a board, intentionally wants to kill the animals in their care ?.

By all means explain the error of their ways, show them a better way, recount your experiences...try to educate if you feel qualified to do so. Flaming just puts the shutters up and receives a negative response.

We can all learn something...flaming is tantamount to burning books.

 

[jamesw]

WOW, great thread gang.

I'd like to point out a few things that sometimes get forgotten.

This board is not reefs.org, it is a PART OF www.reefs.org. Check out the site for the largest source of info on reef aquaria on the net.

Secondly, this board belongs to all of you, it is not really under our control for the most part. Since we don't moderate this board like some of the others, sometimes discussions get quite heated. This is OK, as long as you realize that we are all reefkeepers and we all have information to share.

This is also the largest reef BB on the net, and the more ppl, the more opinions....the more opinions, the more "hot topic" discussions we are going to have. It's only natural. This board isn't here for all of us to sit around patting eachother on the back all day...that wouldn't advance the hobby. We oftentimes get into some very cutting edge discussions, and these can only move forward through sometimes challenging other peoples methods or setups. PLEASE be challenging, but do it in a civil and respectful way.

As for Dr. Ron, I was also sad to see him go, we really enjoyed his posts in the Hitchikers Forum.

Cheers and happy reefkeeping,
James Wiseman

 

[jimbirk]

Well said by all-nothing requires any of us to spend our time reading the posts-frankly- most of them are terrific--I'm new to the reef keeping life experience- and so far the help I have receeived has been very helpful-and respectful-I only wish I had more to give back-it is very clear for 99.9% the level of response on this board is expected to be just below the level of your conservation with your fellow church attendee as you were walking out of church together- and that is the way it should be- how many of us have had the oppurtunity to personally meet the person we are talking to on this board- very few-we own them the common curtesy and respect we would want extended to ourselves.

 

[Quillen]

Great comments! Its nice to have a thread that actually stays on topic - lol. I like a variety of ideas, just as long as they are provided as basic information. Way too often people assume that their situation is the one that everyone else is in.

 

[Liu01GT]

*cough*

if i may defend myself:

i would just like to say that i was not attempting to be flippant about my fish's wellbeing. what you mistook for my amusement over the situation was more of an amusement over my being stupid. if i were really that sadistic over pitting two fish against each other, i might as well breed fighting dogs.

i had checked some sources out, regarding the clownfish incident. unfortunately, they both told me that it would be ok, as long as the fish were smaller than the original female. and, i do believe there was another thread where someone had stated that it shouldn't be a problem, if that were the case.

unfortunately, i misjudged the size of the maroon ones. that was my error. was i enjoying watching what happened during my mishap ? i don't think i ever said (in my original post) that i was. somehow, ppl righteously assumed that was so.

oh, well. since i'm not aiming for world popularity, i'm going to shrug this incident off (lucky i have a thick skin ;P). as for those who got all pissy, well, i'm sure that none of you have ever made mistakes with your tanks. good for you. and, yes, the maroon is actually doing fine with the other fishes. ;P~

 

[Anonymous]

I think this post is starting to become an answer in its self. I think it is also a matter of not being able to see the others nonverbal cues. Words alone do not convey our intentions and this leads to frustration and retaliation. I know of a much worse board, try MSN REC/Aquaria/saltwater I do not know how to set a link it s a part of the webtv network, but it is brutal. Funny thing is the exact same board for Freshwater is very tame and civil.

Go Figure

 

[Quillen]

I don't know, some of the people may just be jerks because they can be. I have started to visit other forums and they are all better behaved.

 

[Anonymous]

JohnD-

Certainly a perfect description of the evolution of The Sump discussion area. It has reached maturity, and is now sloshing around (5) & (6).

That was a very interesting post - thanks!

 

[DaktariEd]

Quillen,
I wonder if people show us their "alter-ego" when they get on a board like this. Similar to what happens to drivers when they get behind the wheel of a car...

People get to act on their impulses with little regard to the "person" on the other end...

JohnD,
Excellent description of the BB evolution...sounds like it's pretty much on target.

 

[Quillen]

Maybe the alter ego does take place, there are pleanty of positive people, the negitive people just stick out like a sore thumb.

I love the discussion, I just like non-attacking, nice discussion. I did debate in HS and it was an adrenaline rush to prove my points, I don't really feel that anymore. It would be a neat PSY research project.

In college, I find I sit around with the TAs and profs, discussing things in total ease. Of course, they are all nice and don't just randomly attack people

like sometimes occurs on the board. As I am going to do AIDS/Cancer, etc research most likely, then I expect to have pleanty of mature conversations that may save someone's life (as opposed to conversation here which often display pride and other tools of Satan - giggle).

 

[JohnD]

Thanks for the comments, but I do want to stress that the points listed were from another individual, Brent Chapman. I wanted to post them because they were so appropriate to our dicussions.

 

[furyclown]

Also, I think some people are trying to be 'funny' and it turns out looking like a flame.

IMHO.

 

[SPC]

Quillen, I am starting to get the feeling that anyone who has different ideas than you is a jerk, other boards are not going to help this situation JMO.
Steve

 

[JohnD]

For my other job, the one that pays the reef keeping bills, I had to read a book Managing Mailing Lists. There was an outstanding article by Brent Chapman, the individual who wrote the Majordomo mailing list software. I think what he wrote about lists in general completely matches our reefs.org board. Here it is:

Every list seems to go through the same cycle:
1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves and gush a lot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls).

2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list and brainstorm recruitment strategies).

3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develope, occasional off-topic threads pop up).

4. Community (lots of threads, some more revelant than others: lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help out experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develope; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone - newbie and expert alike - feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers and sharing opinions).

5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if "other" people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 and 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted complaing about off-topic threads than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed).

6. (a) Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks an "old" question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists spends lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list).

OR

6. (b) Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 poppong up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out their secong or third "delete" key, but the list lives contentedly ever after).

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: JohnD ]

 

[wasabi]

o.k, first off i want to offer mr. premnas my sincere apology for the name calling.i believe that was the first post where i have adressed someone in that manner.something struck a nerve in me. i think it was the directness of his post, followed by the order at the end of it.someone said the name calling was juvenile, they were right.i will try not to be callous and offensive in the future.im a sarcastic sob in real life.i have to live with that.

 

[SPC]

Ophiuroid, bravo!
Wasabi, thanks to you for your very mature post.
Steve

 

[Quillen]

I'll be doing my grad stuff while I am working in a lab. I do a lot of work at the school and pitch in where I can on the research projects, so I am in a unusual situation. One of the guys is socially inept, but as long as he can throw out data to support his thoughts..

. The only people with a cut-throat attitude I have dealt are with evolution theory, so I have found that the negitive people are normally just too (fill in negitive word here) to consider other theories. My 4 friends working in genetics labs all have no bad comments, there are often many ways to try to fix one problem. Hopefully mixing and matching will actually come up with a cure that saves more lives.