What Is an Established Tank

[SPC]

Hey Steve, Who is SPS, I looked back over the thread but couldn't find it. I know at your age you might have just gotten out of bed, I understand.

I would also agree with your thoughts on when a tank becomes mature. I understand what is being asked about scientific proof also, but this may be just one of those depends circumstances.
Steve

[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: SPC ]

 

[Anonymous]

Actually I just got back from the golf course.

I did have to go to bed at 10 to make there at 7 though.

I humbly ask your forgivness for getting your name wrong. I just couldn't remember long enough to get it right

.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know that the cycle does start over. I think it would depend on the cause of the crash. I would think that in my crash the bacteria is one of the things that led to the suddendownfall. They sucked up so much oxygen during the feeding and reproduction frenzy that even the worms that were in the sand bed crawled to the top and died. It has been a while since the crash, and my memory ain't so good any more, Right SPS

, but it seems like the rock "cycled" in a couple of days. The ammonia, nitrites and nitrates were gone pretty soon. The only things that didn't make it on the rock were the sponges and I would assume(yea, I know) that it happened because they hit air when I was transferring the rock to the garbage can.

esmithiii,
I think if you are still reading this, my previous post will help.

 

[bigtank]

IMO, an established tank will have:

Stable water conditions
0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate
a beautiful appearance
large areas of coralline on glass
thriving animals

I think 6 months to a year is the time it takes for a tank to become truly established, not just cycled. Hopefully I will get a few SPS before this year is out and that's the real test of an established tank IMO.

My 70 reef is 9 months old and meets all the criteria in the above list, of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[SPC]

Steve, no need to apologize for your memory, anyone who owns a whole town (Nicholasville) like you do must have alot on their minds.

Steve

 

[esmithiii]

Steve Nichols:

So what you are saying is that the terms are as follows:

Functional: (2-6 Mo.) Nitrate cycle is complete, bacteria process ammonia and nitrite.

Established: (12-18 Mo.) Sand bed is becoming populated.

Mature: (24 Mo.) All algae blooms have subsided, corals are growing, fish are growing. Sand fauna are reproducing.

This helps, but my 55gal tank passed all algae blooms in 6 months, had an incredibly populated sand fauna in 12 months, corals are growing and fish seem healthy. Is my tank mature or simply established? Are there other factors? How does anything (that comes with time) outside of denitrification factor in to coral growth and
fish health? In other words: I often hear that tanks that are less than a year old are not ready for certain fish or corals. Why is this if the nitrate cycle takes only 3-6 months? Why do I need good fauna in my sand bed to have healthy fish/corals/inverts? (I understand if the fish is a mandarin gobie, or something that feeds on the sand bed fauna.)

Hope my questions are clear. This is something that I have been wondering for some time. I plan to updgrade my 55 gal tank to a 180 this winter. I want to do it in a manner that will provide the highest chance of success. I will be using the sand and liverock from the existing tank (Plus more...)

Thanks

Ernie

 

[Anonymous]

Ernie,

I think there are many different things that contribute to the tank "maturing" or "Stablizing"

One varible that makes every tank diffrent is livestock. Both how much and what kind. How Much and what kind will determine both bio load and the time for settling in.

The bio load can drag out the time it takes for all the different systems to become fully cycled and good populations to establish.

The way the fish adjust to each other and the corals and inverts adjust can determine how long before the tank loses agressive squabbles and territories are defined. I have a 90 gallon freshwater that would not settle down untill I removed a P. socolofi cichlid. Once he was removed everything found its niche and the tank has always been healthy.(knock on wood)

Everytank is different and every approach will give different results. In my reef tank I want to establish my fish first and then concentrate on my coral, many people do the opposite and it works beautifully both ways. I think the most important thing is to have a plan and work the plan with adjustments along the way but stay with the plan.

Also view the tank as a whole as a living creature and not a glass box. It helps me to think through decisions.

You will be patient with your new tank and patience will give you the time to adjust the things you need.

The short version of this long windbag post is every tank is different and as long as there is a well thought out plan the chances of success skyrocket.

I am sure you will have a smooth time with your new tank, with the fair share of frustrations to be overcome.

 

[jdeets]

IMO the reason this question is so difficult to answer is that, as someone mentioned above, an established tank involves the system and the aquarist. I agree that A/N/N should all be zero, you should have a diverse sand bed, coralline growth, and a biological filter that can handle your bioload. However, that's not all.

When you can look in your tank and KNOW from your past experience that everything is OK, you have an established tank.

When you KNOW exactly how often you're going to have to scrape the glass without looking at the tank, you have an established tank.

When you can look at a certain coral behaving in a certain way and KNOW what your tank needs, you have an established tank.

When you KNOW every critter in your tank and you KNOW how they're going to behave, you have an established tank.

When you can see a certain coral closed up and KNOW you've got something causing a water quality issue before ever testing the water, you have an established tank.

When you can tell that your alk or Ca is off because you're not seeing the coralline growth you'd normally see, and your test results confirm what your observations told you, you have an established tank.

When you look at your tank and you see a part of yourself in the tank with your livestock, you have an established tank.

Anyway, enough deep thought for this Saturday afternoon.

Someone earlier asked when you can try difficult corals. IMO, the practical answer to that is when you've mastered the easy ones. When you can see your corals growth and when you can propagate softies successfully and when all your easy corals are thriving and wont for attention, then it's time to try a more difficult coral. Not before.

I've just gotten to the point now where I can watch my LPS get bigger week by week--the GOB is bigger by the week, the pagoda is ringed with new, tiny polyps and the hammer is open like never before. The bubble seems to get bigger and bigger and looks like it's forming a new mouth and a second head. The favites moon is bulging out--will it be forming babies, perhaps? The Red Sea pulsing xenia is growing uncontrollably, I've fragged a sinularia into four very nice-sized corals (see ReefKeepers Marketplace...) and the 'shrooms are multiplying like crazy. I'd say I would be ready to try something more difficult--but my tank and I both are enjoying each other immensely right now and I'm going to stay put for a while. It will be there for a long time and I can always put something new in later...

Anyway, enough rambling. Hope you're all having a good weekend!

 

[naesco]

Very well put Jdeets.
If we rush things and stock inappropriately, the learning curve for both reefer and reef lengthens.
The reason I can say this is because I experienced all the problems of a beginner.
The good thing about the Board is that new reefers can avoid the problems others have experienced. We never stop learning and we never stop wanting to buy that difficult coral or fish. We just learn to say, later!

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think that putting the aquarist in the mix has to do with the tanks maturity or establisnment. I believe that all jdeets said deals with the maturity of the aquarist and is necessary to keep difficult species. Take a building for example. People build them all the time and don't have the foggiest idea of the engineering that goes into the construction thereof. The buildings don't fall down because the construction workers follwoed directions. I think that there are many aquariums that follow the same track. The aquarist doesn't know why everything works, but through following directions has built a working aquarium. The people on these boards, for the most part, are the "engineers" of our hobby. We want to achieve the "status" of "reefer extrodinaire". That is why so many of us get emotional on other posts, we care about the critters. But, on average, people just want to keep a pretty thing in their house, and by following directions, get a functional, established mature system.

 

[esmithiii]

Mitch:

You are missing the point. If someone is posting a question and they state:

"I am a newbie that just took over my brother's tank which has been set up for 10 years..."

Is the tank mature? Established? Or new because the owner is a newbie? The tank should be considered "mature" even though the aquarist is novice. Similarly, if someone posted a question tha started like this:

"I have been keeping reefs for the last 20 years, have a PhD in marine biology and one in chemistry, and just set up a new tank last week..."

Is his tank mature (just because he is?)

My point in asking the questions was this:

If the nitrate cycle takes 3 months or less, scientifically speaking, what is different between a tank that is 6 months old and one that is 30 months old?

 

[Toadally1]

Well said Mitch! I couldn't agree more...

 

[naesco]

Mitch you have perfectly reconfirmed the answer to the question "What is an established tank?"
Thanks

 

[Cruiser]

esmithiii
If the nitrate cycle takes 3 months or less, scientifically speaking, what is different between a tank that is 6 months old and one that is 30 months old?

that would be species diversity which is controlled by our small sand beds, food supply, predation, reproduction rate, population space, etc....which leads to limitations in the waste and nutrient removal pathways which leads back to species diversity

. This is why it is generally recommended to reinoculate sandbeds every few years........of course each reef system is unique.

An establish tank has the capacity to handle
standard deviations from normal conditions without long term effects to the tanks population. Hard to define a difference between functional and established, when the filter converts A/N/N it is functional, established, and in a short timeframe its mature(bacteria population).

Its hard to include the aquarist in the question of an established tank, as Ernie as pointed out. An establish tank should be able to operate on its own without constant intervention.(of course this doesn't equate to pump failure, lighting failures, water replenshment, etc...doesn't take years of aquarium knowledge to change the pump). An experienced aquarist is part of the equation when you start to change parameters like new species introduction, species requirements, disease, etc....and just because the aquarist is tied to the basic reef operations, does not mean that the tank is established.

 

[naesco]

Cruiser what you are saying is true.
But I think most of us that have posted are dealing with the issue of when should a reefer consider putting difficult species in a reef. IMO it is a combination of both the tank and the reefer.

 

[Carpentersreef]

esmithii,
I don't think I am missing the point. I would consider a 10 year old tank with a newbie looking after it as a system that has a very high risk of crashing soon. I think we can all agree on proper operating parameters.

It just occured to me that you are talking about a snapshot of a system, and I'm talking about an ongoing system. If that's the case you are correct in trying to define what exactly is in that snapshot .
But do you not agree that an experienced aquarist should be in that picture?

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Carpentersreef ]

 

[jdeets]

Remember--just because a tank is old, doesn't mean it's established. An inexperienced aquarist who "inherits" a mature system can just as easily turn it into a system that is unstable.

This could be analogized to the "third generation" syndrome in business. Granddad starts a business and son makes it great and when grandson takes over, it declines and fails. Same thing can happen to a tank albeit much faster.

I don't think it's possible to define an established system without having the aquarist in the equation, because someone taking over a tank that doesn't "know" the system can render the system no better than a brand new tank very quickly. Just another $0.02.

 

[Cruiser]

naseco

Had to review the initial topic

You are completely correct. There is no question about the necessary skills needed by the aquarist to maintain difficult species

. Agreed it is a combination of both, but,Greateremphasis is cast on the aquarist rather then the tank, IMO, for difficult species.

 

[SPC]

That would be my feelings on the subject we are discussing, I would place much greater emphasis on the caretaker of the aquaria for long term success. That person will be the ultimate deciding factor on whether the tank ever becomes established, and if so, whether it stays that way in the long run.
Steve

 

[2poor2reef]

On the original topic I don't think it's terribly useful to think of the stbility of a reef tank in terms of time. Rather it should be thought of in terms of the status of the various populations that it contains. For example, to say that a tank has completely cycled is to say that the populations of bacteria that process ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have stabilized at levels related to the nutrient input of the system. This can happen sooner in some systems than others. In any system, no matter how old, if the nutrient import is increased then the bacteria population falls behind in processing until it re-establishes a new larger population relative to the nutrient levels. This is true of all populations including sand infauna, herbivores, etc. It can even be carried in concept to skimmers and lighting.

Our systems stabilize at maturity and then fall back when things are changed. Finally they re-stabilize (hopefully) at new levels and the process continues indefinitely.