What Is an Established Tank

[Anonymous]

Is it determined by age, how many critters are crawling around, the growth of algae is "normal" or what. I am curios because several of the corals and fish I am considering "should" be placed in an "established" tank. These creatures are generally considered to be difficult. Any comment would be appreciated. TIA

 

[Carpentersreef]

I would consider an established tank to be a combination of the tank AND it's owner/keeper. I'd give a new tank a year to settle down, and the same time for the keeper of the tank to learn what work is involved in keeping ALL inhabitants happy, and the system stable.
No major crashes, no "restarts", and a good status quo.
Also, experimenting is kept to a safe minimum.
Good choice, by the way, to research FIRST! It will only help lead to success with your new inhabitants.

Good luck,
Mitch

 

[davelin315]

An established tank is one that can handle the livestock in it. Like carpentersreef said, no crashes, no restarts. In other words, your tank has cycled (you have all the bacteria that you set out to attain in your setup and they are doing their job) and won't get thrown out of whack when you add something.

 

[naesco]

I agree with Carpentersreef but would add the following.
When you are at the stage that he suggests you are still not at the stage where you can keep difficult species in my opinion. You are simply only getting there.

 

[Anonymous]

Would you consider a tank "new" when it has 5 year old rock in it? The rock went through a crash that killed all the life in my tank except the fan worms and a couple of rock anemones. The sand bed is now about 3 months old with critters. The initial algae stages have been weathered and there are about 14 gazillion pods and baby snails. The tank is quite stable right now. It has an algae blenny as its only non-invertebrate.
I have been doing this for a while, but the term established never seemed important to truly understand. Now that I have to start over the things I glossed over the first time seem more important. Like studying each inhabitant thoroughly before adding it. Thanks for the replies so far, keep them coming.

 

[naesco]

Your tank is a new tank Steve. It is only three months old IMO. If you and the tank can weather the next 9 months without problems, IMO your tank could be considered as established.
In the meantime Steve, take the opportunity of getting information from some of the experts on this board who sucessfully keep some of the species you are contemplating keeping.

 

[Carpentersreef]

Naesco,
O.K., but at what point, then, are you ready for difficult corals? It depends on how much one has researched and learned, doesn't it?

SteveNichols,
What do you mean by 5 year old LR? Isn't LR made up of coral skeletons and deposits that may be hundreds of years old?
I want to add a DSB to my refugium which is kinda berlin right now, and I'm still looking for more info before I risk my system. I wonder if my "established" system can handle it.

 

[Anonymous]

I was afraid someone would say that. But, my fear is also my advantage

. If no one had said that I could probably have talked myself into the wrong answer. Thanks naesco. So, I guess that you are of the opinion it is age as I thought.
I don't now how many have kept Dendro and Scleronephthya. It will be another 9 months before I need to worry about them though.

I am also going to push the envelope and have Pomacanthus angel fish, most likely the navarchus. I am heavily into the research phase. I figure it will be another 2-3 months before I add a coral or fish. Right now I am waiting to hear back from the Ministry of Fisheries in Tonga on species distribution and collection. I love the studying and learning as much as the watching. Thanks for the reply

 

[naesco]

Carpentersreef
As you pointed out there is the reeftank and the reefkeeper.
On the reefkeeper side it is;
firstly, recognizing that you need an established tank as you have defined, secondly, educating yourself about the species you are planning to keep.
thirdly, deciding that you will not keep, or will keep a certain species based on the degree of difficulty.
IMO, if you pass the 'test' on all three you would be ready to attempt one of the difficult species.

 

[Anonymous]

I mean that the rock was in my tank for 5 years or so before it crashed in early May. I saved the rock and that is where the age determination came from. I dont' know if it was "dead" or not before that as it had little coralline on it.

 

[Carpentersreef]

Naesco
Got that.
Looks like we were posting at the same time.
[/LIST]

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Carpentersreef ]

 

[Anonymous]

Carpenter,
What kind of information do you need? It would be pretty safe to just add the sand since there are no sand critters to bury. It would probably be best to add 1/2" at a time until you get to "magic" 4" depth.

 

[Carpentersreef]

I guess my questions would be:
my refugium is acting like a settling tank right now, so there is a fair amount of crud on the bottom, (maybe 1/4") so do I vaccuum all that out first? Also, do I put a different size in first, or should all the sand be the same? What danger signs should I watch for as the DSB matures? How long at half an inch per addition should I take to do this?

Thanks,
Mitch

[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: Carpentersreef ]

 

[davelin315]

I think I might disagree with naesco on his opinion that your tank needs 9 months to mature and become established, in theory at least. Since you have old live rock in there, you should have the bacteria and fauna that you want already, and basically, you have only replaced the water. It's like doing a 100% water change. However, if you had a crash, something was wrong to begin with, so I would think the live rock is not as live as you think, so on the other hand, your tank is not established. I consider a tank established when it can handle the biological load you put into it. This takes time, but I don't think you can put an exact number to it before you can add more difficult species. Take this example, I have a 125 and buy a new 125. I take all of the stuff out of my old 125 and toss it in the new 125, adding some new substrate to my existing bed. I would say that this is an established system within a few days, because the only real difference between old and new is the water and the glass, neither of which is going to be a major part of the biological filter for your system. On the other hand, if my 125 stopped supporting life and killed off most of the inhabitants, I would say that I was basically starting over, and it would take a month or so before I once again had an established tank. The concept is the same as starting a new tank by filling it with live rock and live sand. The system is ready to go after a few days as long as your live rock is cured, and you can put the same things in there at 2 weeks that you could at 2 years, it shouldn't make a difference. On top of that, your system is probably better able to handle more difficult species when it's new, because you don't have any pollutants in your water, and it also has not been depleted of any trace elements yet, and so you have a healthier system with more bio-available nutrients for your animals.

 

[Anonymous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
<STRONG>What danger signs should I watch for as the DSB matures? How long at half an inch per addition should I take to do this?

Thanks,
Mitch</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing one can give on a DSB is opinion, here is mine.

This is probably the slowest developing system in the tank.

I would add the Sand all at one time so it can mature easier rather than in stages.

You will know it is matureing when you start seeing a lot of bubbles collecting on the top of the sand and raising when disturbed. Some systems mature when they are 2 - 10 months, or John@Carlise claimed his did in 30 Mins well maybe longer

.

The biggest danger I see is the development of Cyanobacteria. Which is avoided with good circulation. The best way I have found to check this is allow you return pump to suck some air and allow the whole system to fill with air bubbles. you will see all the dead spots.

I tend to stay conservative, I am going to have this tank up for decades and decades, why get in a hurry to get there? Take your time.

 

[SPC]

Mitch, I would vacumn out all the crud in the refugium. I would then purchase some oolithic sand and place it into a container with salt water and about a gallon of established tank water. Place a cocktail shrimp, pc of fish etc... on top of the sand. Remove the shrimp every day or two and mix the sand up and then place the shrimp back in, do this for 2 or 3 weeks. I read this idea from Agu on RC and have tried it, it works well to get the bacteria to coat the sand grains which helps to keep the sand from blowing around as much + the obvious advantages of the bacteria. When you have finished with this process, do a water change or two on your container, shut off your pumps, and add the sand to your refugium. At this point I like to add some pieces of live rock on top of the sand to cut down on it blowing around. When you start the pumps back up you will most likely have a large cloud from the sand, don't worry about this but instead try to move the rock that is on the sand in order to cut down on the sand being blown around. After things have settled a bit, I would then add some established sand or a kit to seed the sand with the larger sand critters. If you take your time on these steps then all you have to do is let nature take its course from this point on.
Steve

 

[Carpentersreef]

Thanks.

 

[GobieWanKenobie]

I agree with Fishaholic, you should add all of the sand at once to let it begin the process to maturity. I saw the bubbles after about 3 months. The bubbles are the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen and oxygen - very good! I battled with Cyano as well. Just when I was about to throw in the towel and start the DSB over again, it just went away. No explaination for it, except that all tanks contain Cyano - just to different degrees. Mine took on plague proportions so I must have had excess nutrients in the water. After the DSB is in place for awhile (month or so), you will want to seed it. Kits from ISPF are the best in my experience. If you know someone with really live sand, a scoopful of that would probably be even better. These little guys will help turn the sand over, thereby avoiding "dead spots" and DSB hardening. These little guys like cyano too, so they should keep it in check.

 

[esmithiii]

This is a frustrating topic. I think it is ludircous to include the reefkeeper's experience level in the definition of a "mature" or "Established" tank. I understand the nitrate cycle and the cycling of liverock, which both take less than three months, but many people talk about not introducing fish for several more months, and coral even later! What changes? Can we get a more scientific definition, or possibly a scientific description of the cycles that a tank goes through in the first year that would cause it to be classified as "Mature" or "Established"?

When a tank "crashes" (i.e. you loose one or more fish, maybe some corals or other invertabrates) why is it the "cycle" starts over?

What about upgrading to a larger tank using cycled water and liverock/livesand w/ additional liverock/livesand? Why do some people seem to imply that if you change tanks at all you must "start over" with the month count towards tank maturity?

I would sincerly love to hear some scientific explanations/definitions of how a tank becomes "mature" or "extablished"

E

 

[Anonymous]

Davelin,
The crash was caused by a relay the turns the fans on to exhaust the heat from my hood. I would say the temp in the tank was 95-100 degrees for a couple of days. When I came back from a weekend camping, the smell was incredible. Virtually all the animals over 1/4"died.

All the fan worms and a couple of rock anemones survived. I am not looking to add anything to the tank yet, I was just curious because I wasn't sure what a goo definition would be. The difficult species won't be going in the tank for at least a year. There are too many other things that need to be added first. I figure I will be done stocking the tank in 2 years.

Carpenter,
I think that SPS suggestion is the best way to do it I have ever seen. It makes a lot of sense.

I saw an excellent breakdown of the words functional, established, and mature. The order "corresponds" to an age or probably more accurately the time it takes a tank to get to certain functions. A functional bed was defined as on that could do denitration. The bacteria and infauna had a good foothold and were becoming "established" It was suggested that this level could be reached in a 2-6 months.
Established was the next level at which the sand critters were going well the were no problems with the system. This level was "attained in approximately 12-18 months. When everything was going swimmingly, the sand critters were reproducing, fish and corals were growing, the algae monsters were thoughts dim in memory, the tank was considered mature. This time frame was around the 2 year mark. I would tend to think that this is a very good breakdownof the terms and times it takes to get to them.

Thanks for the discussion, lets keep it going.