who is this guy anyway??

NaH2Ofreak · Nov 23, 2001

Rover,

Do you happen to have a link to that issue of FAMA that you are quoteing from? Was MW talking about cycling a tank or what you should do after the tank has cycled and you start adding livestock?

[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: NaH2Ofreak ]

SPC · Nov 23, 2001

FWIW, I receive FAMA each month and will concur with Glen's quotes, the meaning I took away was that you should cycle a tank with these fish.
Steve

Anonymous · Nov 23, 2001

here

This is a link to the back issues if you want to look through those. It hasn't been updated yet as this appeared in this months issue. He (the guys being interviewed) was basically saying to add these fish after the live rock had "cured" (nitrites down to zero). Even still I wouldn't reccomend adding those more delicate tangs or angels. The tank still has some "setting" up to do IMO. It just bothers me that they recomend to do these sorts of things with the attitude that it will only work if you use these magical products that no one else has or understands how it works.

I think their basic approach (extremely heavy skimming, heavy UV, and heavy feeding) will work without all of the crap that they throw in the tank.

Glenn

NaH2Ofreak · Nov 23, 2001

Rover,

Thanks for the info. I totally agree with you on the fact that you dont have to spend $40 for fermenting apple cider to have a thriving reef!!! Just as a side note; I have smelled coral vital before. I have also smelled fermenting apple cider before as I have brewed hard cider at home. THEY SMELL EXACTLY A LIKE!!!!!!!!!!!! I posted before just what exactly fermenting apple cider will do for your reef and no one had a real SOLID answer. I would be curious to know WHY he chose to use this. I mean he could have used ANYTHING!!!! But for some reason he uses fermenting apple cider.

By the way....it is very easy to make and if anyone would like for me to tell them how to do it, I would be happy to show them!

Dennis

JoshF · Nov 25, 2001

Taken from WaterMarc issue 12 in the december issue of FAMA.
"actually with experience you can keep corals in a bucket on a sunny porch."

"a fed coral in the dark will live a lot longer than a starved one in good lighting."

Umm, actually this is quite true. Photosynthesizing zooxanthellae primarily contribute carbon to the host coral, most of which is used for mucus production. Most corals rely quite heavily on either solid food or dissolved organic nutrients. A study in Australia showed quite conclusively that of a large sampling of corals, the ones living in total darkness with adequate food lived longer/grew better than those in direct light with no food. This post has NOTHING to do with anything ELSE Marc Weiss may say, but on this point he is dead on...

Josh

reefaquariumsecrets · Nov 25, 2001

Marc is a personal friend of mine and I can tell you for a fact that he has contributed alot to this hobby. No one hears about the stuff he gives away to aquarium societies and other organizations, along with his work in many other areas of aquaculture. He has some of the most beautiful discus I have ever seen and has set up more tanks than most of these self made reef guru's that get on him and his products. As for his products apparently no one read the results from Shimik that many of Marc's products actually had more valuable elements in it than many of the so called staples in the hobby??????

reefaquariumsecrets · Nov 25, 2001

I can also tell you his products are not apple cider. They did an analysis and released the results on his and many other products at macna.
Again they rated higher than most of the so called staples in the hobby. Ask Ron himself don't take my word for it.

reefaquariumsecrets · Nov 25, 2001

As for you guys that like to beat up on Julian he is also a friend and has helped more hobbyist than most professionals combined. I once witnessed him spend 45 minutes with a lady at an aquarium society show that he did not know from a hole in the wall. No he wasn't trying to get lucky either! This lady didn't even have a tank yet!!!!
She was in her fifties and was considering setting up a tank. There was a zillion people there that wanted to talk to him alot more politically important yet he took the time to give the lady a good insight into our hobby!!! So if you think Julian is full of himself then maybe you should get to know him first or ask one of his many friends in the hobby and the industry.

Anonymous · Nov 25, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by reefaquariumsecrets:
I once witnessed him spend 45 minutes with a lady at an aquarium society show that he did not know from a hole in the wall. No he wasn't trying to get lucky either! This lady didn't even have a tank yet!!!!<hr></blockquote>

lol

Who are you?

chris_h · Nov 25, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by SPC:
So Chris, you would say cycling a tank with these fish would be a good idea?

Steve<hr></blockquote>
I did not say anything about cycling a tank with these fish, I agreed they should be added first. A tank can be cycled before the first fish are added.

Mabu · Nov 26, 2001

Ok, I went to a LFS and had been looking for some additive to help my gorgonians, who have been looking less than healthy lately. I have basically heard lots of bad talk about just about every extra additive, but I purchased a $19 thing of the Spectra Vital at the recommendation of the guy at the LFS who has an incredible 800g tank teeming with coral... so I'll check it out...

One thing that disturbs me is it seems like most of the criticism here doesn't seem to be based on actual testing and experience with the products, but more of the goofball marketing propoganda they are offended by. I'm not discounting the value (or lack thereof) of that stuff, but I'm just as suspicious of those who trash the product without experience or a good reason.

Does anybody really know what's in this stuff? The "fermented apple juice" reference seems to basically indicate vinegar, which has been proven to be a valuable additive in making Kalk work more effectively... is this basically what this stuff is, with maybe some additives for inverts?

Let's put aside taking this guy's quotes out of context and discuss any actual experience with the products and find out if they are any good.. any takers? I'll report my findings as best I can too...

MiNdErAsR · Nov 26, 2001

I seem to remember Shimek saying Coral Vital had the nutritional equivilance of brine shrimp, and that he was surprized it was even that high. Sure sounds like a resounding endorsement to me!

How long can you survive on a diet of potato chips?

MattM · Nov 26, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by reefaquariumsecrets:
...As for his products apparently no one read the results from Shimik that many of Marc's products actually had more valuable elements in it than many of the so called staples in the hobby??????<hr></blockquote>

Actually, that's not quite what Ron said, but as I don't have his paper in front of me right now (its at the store), I'll leave it at that.

Unfortunately, I can no longer consider Dr. Shimek to be a unbiased observer since his latest book is published by Mark Weiss Co.

As far as the products, I will not use any product that is marketed with meaningless pseudo-science jargon. This text is blatently written to impress the unsuspecting newbie, and is absolutle laughable when examined by anyone with even the slightest understanding of the terms used.

I quote from various Marc Weiss product labels and web site:

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Light interaction with the water molecule is essential to transfer energy. The "Vitals" turn the bulk water into a liquid crystal aligning the water molecules to transfer light more bio-effectively.

The products are designed to commence and synchronize the cycles that occur in reefs in nature. The product doesn't immediately recognize what position each of the cycles are in when added, and needs a little time to recognize them.

A protein skimmer/foam fractionator cannot skim out Coral Vital or LSB; thats how well it fits into the water molecule!

Why is it sometimes when I open a bottle of your liquids there is a spark, and I feel a small electric "shock"? - From the beginning our products (liquids and powders) have been designed to have a polar attraction to living cells; in most cases ones fingers qualify!

No need to call me about the little electrical shocks and tingles you get sometimes when you open the bottle! I know all about it! There’s life in my jars and bottles just waiting to get into your aquarium!

As with all our polar charged bio-colloidal products BlackPowder is formulated from what were originally living cells.

The product is actually alive, and it creates more colloids until they’re all consumed!

Indeed, the product is "self-digesting", producing more colloids as it consumes others in a cycle that you can allow to proceed should you continue to add more before what's left is consumed.<hr></blockquote>

Turns water into liquid crystals? Recognizes biological/chemical cycles? Fits into water molecules? Claims static electricity as a product benefit? Claims that static electricity is life? First Black Powder is made from formerly living cells, then in the next paragraph its actually alive?

I don't even know where to start! Making fun of Marc Weiss advertising is like hunting cows with a high powered rifle and scope.

Iron · Nov 26, 2001

coral vital is sold to rid ick help coralinegrow. it have more trace valuve than combisan= CV isn't sold as a trace. Black powerder read the above. He can afford to give $$ cuz he make $$ of his marketing for reef additives that most can do without. They are all in it for the $$ sometimes they do what they need to do= RonS. But Julian S sell cobisan= 99% water he maynot have know but he was willing to sue for it.Reefkeeping is a $$ hobby we don't like buying placebos. Sure I will buy Julians books ifthey are good or any other products but don't cheat me.

Iron · Nov 26, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by JoshF:
Taken from WaterMarc issue 12 in the december issue of FAMA.
"actually with experience you can keep corals in a bucket on a sunny porch."

"a fed coral in the dark will live a lot longer than a starved one in good lighting."

Umm, actually this is quite true. Photosynthesizing zooxanthellae primarily contribute carbon to the host coral, most of which is used for mucus production. Most corals rely quite heavily on either solid food or dissolved organic nutrients. A study in Australia showed quite conclusively that of a large sampling of corals, the ones living in total darkness with adequate food lived longer/grew better than those in direct light with no food. This post has NOTHING to do with anything ELSE Marc Weiss may say, but on this point he is dead on...

Josh<hr></blockquote>
If using ocean water. I doubt you will find this in the aquaria. Aquariums are starved compared to the ocean But we can't feed them like the ocean= to much waste. So dark corals in the aquarium I doubt will live longer than corals with light. man made water isn't equal to the ocean. Unless we are concidering the ocean. be we are taking aquariums??

reefaquariumsecrets · Nov 26, 2001

First of all I was at macna right next to Shimik and the statement that Shimik made and the results of this test was before Marc even agreed to work with Shimik!!!!! Marc was just as shocked that the truth finally came out about his stuff and I was glad he finally got some well deserved credit. I was just disappointed they did not use Reef Vital DNA for the test!!!!! Things would have been alot different!! I can use alot of products for a month with no results and notice no difference if I discontinue its use that does not mean it does not work. Most of the important things that go on in a healthy system most hobbyist are not even aware of and that is good. If you add something to your tank and it does backflips it doesn't mean that the product is working it could mean that you have had a deficiency that this product is now addressing. Many products I test show little results in my personal tanks because they are well established and have a constant supply of many essential nutrients. I have tested Marcs stuff in many applications and use it on my personal tanks as well. That is because I know what is in it! But because of friendship, and legal reasons as well I have to keep that to myself. But I can say for a fact that it is not apple cider or vinegar. And if it was surprise these can be healthy for a tank as well!!!! Get off the vinegar and apple cider those are old rumors that have gotten a little boring. If this were truly the case he would not still be in business!!!!!! If to say the least Marc's Coral Vital was considered equal in nutritional value than brine shrimp aren't hobbyist often told how healthy a diet of these guys can be for fish and corals?????? But brine shrimp do not have many of the essential microbes and other elements in it???? And what about all the well known products that people buy everyday that did not come close to Marcs stuff?????? Plus everyone gets on the Coral Vital? If you want a killer product try the Reef Vital DNA!

Anonymous · Nov 26, 2001

<blockquote>quote

I can use alot of products for a month with no results and notice no difference if I discontinue its use that does not mean it does not work.

Sorry but if I'm gonna spend the money I need to see results.

<blockquote>quote

That is because I know what is in it!

When I know what's in it maybe I'll see it differently. Until then I'm not going to spend money on something with no ingredient list.

<blockquote>quote

If to say the least Marc's Coral Vital was considered equal in nutritional value than brine shrimp aren't hobbyist often told how healthy a diet of these guys can be for fish and corals??????

Actually I've always considered brine shrimp to be a rather poor diet and I've never really seen corals eat them.

<blockquote>quote

First of all I was at macna right next to Shimik and the statement that Shimik made and the results of this test was before Marc even agreed to work with Shimik!!!!!

If you are going to continue to make such claims I think we are going to need to see some credentials. Anonymity is a wonderful thing.

And it's Shimek

Anonymous · Nov 27, 2001

<blockquote>quote

One thing that disturbs me is it seems like most of the criticism here doesn't seem to be based on actual testing and experience with the products, but more of the goofball marketing propoganda they are offended by

I used the black powder for about a month as a trial. I saw absolutely no effect. My softies would open up and then melt for about an hour. I saw no improvement and no difference when I stopped using it.

Glenn

MarkS · Nov 27, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by reefaquariumsecrets:
If to say the least Marc's Coral Vital was considered equal in nutritional value than brine shrimp aren't hobbyist often told how healthy a diet of these guys can be for fish and corals??????<hr></blockquote>

No, actually we are warned AGAINST feeding brine shrimp due to it's complete and utter lack of any nutritional value. It should ONLY be fed as a stop gap measure and then ONLY after soaking in Selcon or simular. Basically it's the Selcon that you are feeding.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by reefaquariumsecrets:
But brine shrimp do not have many of the essential microbes and other elements in it????<hr></blockquote>

"essential microbes and other elements"?? What the %$# are you talking about?!? It's, um, kind of hard to answer that since you already did, but I'll bite. No, brine shrimp do not have any... well... anything in them.

You know, I'd be willing to bet that your first name begins with a 'M' and your last name begins with a 'W'.

Mark

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: MarkS ]

SPC · Nov 27, 2001

Yea its those essential microbes that I am after.

Steve

who is this guy anyway??

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