Anyone else sick of hearing/reading the "you can't put x fish in y sized tank because said fish needs so much room to feel at home in a natural environment". Give me a break! Let's face it, we have these fish/organisms in our homes for our selfish pleasure. Any educational value is purely a derivative of this pleasure and, while significant, is not the primary purpose for keeping the animals. We owe it to our fish to give them a good and healthy home but no tank is going to even come close to the reef and I find it hard to imagine that a 2-4" fish really can tell the difference between a 4ft. box for a home and a 5ft box. Done now.
Stop the hypocrisy
- Thread starter Ben 4
- Start date
it is true that nothing can compete with the wide open ocean however, we must not avoid the physical needs of certain saltwater species. ie a tang in a 20 gallon. we must do everything in our part to preserve the longgevity of these species while in our care. when you listen to the experts in this hobby there advice is similiar when it comes to certain things. yes it is for our own selfish reasons we house these animals but it is even more selfish not to give them a proper home. a big dog will still be healthy as long as its master walks him regularly. a big dog locked in a crate 24/7 will lead to a very unhealthy disturbed dog. ask someone who has had a tang for 8 yrs how they kept it alive so long. i will assure you it did not spend its entire life in a 20 gallon tank...
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by golfish:
<strong>Well, I look at it like this. If I were to be put in prison. Would I be happy in a cell that was 20 foot x 20 foot or a cell that was 40 foot x 40 foot........I probably wouldn't be happy in either one....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Mark--are you admitting to a crime?
hehe j/k
I agree with Mark, I feel bad enough sometimes putting fish in a rectangluar box smaller than their natural territory in the wild. However, if you give them a good home, they have it made don't they? They don't really have to hunt for food and we have taken away 99% of all natural predators, but it is still a life in a box. Quite the conundrum.
I think you need to take into consideration each fish and their natural territory in the wild. Some schooling fish, such as tangs, need open water to school. We think they are schooling in our tanks...sometimes they have no choice in the matter. I can hear them now..."oh sorry, I bumped into you again. Look at that clown staring at us...on the count of 3, let's turn 75 degrees to the right, he will think we are schooling."
<strong>Well, I look at it like this. If I were to be put in prison. Would I be happy in a cell that was 20 foot x 20 foot or a cell that was 40 foot x 40 foot........I probably wouldn't be happy in either one....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Mark--are you admitting to a crime?
I agree with Mark, I feel bad enough sometimes putting fish in a rectangluar box smaller than their natural territory in the wild. However, if you give them a good home, they have it made don't they? They don't really have to hunt for food and we have taken away 99% of all natural predators, but it is still a life in a box. Quite the conundrum.
I think you need to take into consideration each fish and their natural territory in the wild. Some schooling fish, such as tangs, need open water to school. We think they are schooling in our tanks...sometimes they have no choice in the matter. I can hear them now..."oh sorry, I bumped into you again. Look at that clown staring at us...on the count of 3, let's turn 75 degrees to the right, he will think we are schooling."
Sounds like someone getiing ready to justify something. I do agree, it is quite obvious, that our tanks arn't the size of the ocean. That does not in any way dismiss our responsibility to adequetly house the objects of our desire. Using that logic, I can put an achilles tang in a 10 gallon tank. It is incumbent upon us to do the best we can for our fish. That, to me, means knowing the range, behavior,and feeding habits of the animal I want bfore I get it. If I can "reasonably" accomodate them I will get them. Ican't accomodate an achilles tang, as they require the most room according to my research, but i can house the zebrasomas and may Acanthurides and Paracanthuroids. I certainly have enough roaming space for a grouper, but not the volume at 100 gallons. There are many fish I would like to get, but don't have the room, yet
I also disagree that educational value is secondary to the viewing pleasure. I have to be educated enough on the requirements of my fish and corals to provide an enjoyable viewing experience. This, to me, puts the education ahead of the experience. If i put a tang in a 10 gallon tank, i have a beautiful fish that is miserable and so I will be miserable. The uneducated cause themselves a lot of grief and kill alot of critters. I can derive no enjoyment at all from that.
I also disagree that educational value is secondary to the viewing pleasure. I have to be educated enough on the requirements of my fish and corals to provide an enjoyable viewing experience. This, to me, puts the education ahead of the experience. If i put a tang in a 10 gallon tank, i have a beautiful fish that is miserable and so I will be miserable. The uneducated cause themselves a lot of grief and kill alot of critters. I can derive no enjoyment at all from that.
Many reefers come to this forum asking for answers to questions about tangs and the problems of keeping them.
The best answers come from reefers who have read a great deal about them and even better answers come from people who in addition to reading about them actually have kept them for some time.
Some people like you are not interested in the opinions of the experts who write about them or the opinions those who keep them.
I am sorry you are sick of hearing this advice. Maybe just not reading the threads will make you feel better.
I for one am going to continue to educate new reefers based on my reading and my experience.
The best answers come from reefers who have read a great deal about them and even better answers come from people who in addition to reading about them actually have kept them for some time.
Some people like you are not interested in the opinions of the experts who write about them or the opinions those who keep them.
I am sorry you are sick of hearing this advice. Maybe just not reading the threads will make you feel better.
I for one am going to continue to educate new reefers based on my reading and my experience.
It may only seem like an extra foot to you but to the fish thats probably three times its entire length, proportionally size makes a big difference for them but it may not seem like a great deal to us.
I also feel that in taking these animals away from their natural habitat we are eliminating all predetation, competition and hopefully ensuring a desease free existance. Not such a bad exchange in my opinion, and if i felt it was unreasonable i wouldn't do it.
What gets me more upset than anything is when i see readers tanks in what i would consider reputable and conciencous marine magazines that are vastly overstocked and with terrible husbandry. And all the magazine has to say is "this is Mr X's tank from Neverwhere and doesn't it look great" when it should refuse to print the picture because of the owners incapacity provide suitable housing. PFK this month for example has a powder blue tang an a 30 gallon tank. That really upsets me, these people are supposed to be setting a president, and instead they praise the scum that give this hobby a bad name.
I also feel that in taking these animals away from their natural habitat we are eliminating all predetation, competition and hopefully ensuring a desease free existance. Not such a bad exchange in my opinion, and if i felt it was unreasonable i wouldn't do it.
What gets me more upset than anything is when i see readers tanks in what i would consider reputable and conciencous marine magazines that are vastly overstocked and with terrible husbandry. And all the magazine has to say is "this is Mr X's tank from Neverwhere and doesn't it look great" when it should refuse to print the picture because of the owners incapacity provide suitable housing. PFK this month for example has a powder blue tang an a 30 gallon tank. That really upsets me, these people are supposed to be setting a president, and instead they praise the scum that give this hobby a bad name.
The intent of my original post was certainly not to justify anything, I would not even consider putting a tang in any tank under 55 gal. and I agree that most Tang sp. require quite a bit more room than that. (That said, the Scopas Tang in my 90 gal. tank spends his time slowly cruising the tank picking at rocks and I imagine he would be perfectly content in a 40 gal. tank if it had lots of rock/algae to keep him happy/fed).
My problem comes from the folks on these various boards who claim to know more than the experts who write books/articles on this subject such as Scott Michael, John Tullock and Nick Dakin, etc. If they claim that a fish can thrive in a certain size tank, who are we/you to argue?
My problem comes from the folks on these various boards who claim to know more than the experts who write books/articles on this subject such as Scott Michael, John Tullock and Nick Dakin, etc. If they claim that a fish can thrive in a certain size tank, who are we/you to argue?
I don't recall anyone saying the "experts" were wrong. If I remember correctly, there is a little difference between their suggestions. That being said, people like myself and naesco have kept some of them and have a bit of experience. We give our opinions as to the tank sizes based on our observations. On some of them, I do disagree with the experts and always to a larger size. I think part of it is that I want to be able to justify a larger tank
Seriously though, my yellow that I had for 5 years was 5-6" and was somewhat cramped in my 100.
Sorry, apparently I missed something here. I didn't realize this was a Tang specific discussion. On the other hand, though, I enjoy having juvenile fish (of larger species) in my tank because they are often more attractive than adults and require less space and as they start to "out-grow" the tank I trade them to someone with a larger tank, or sell them to the LFS {for a financial loss). The mutual benefit is that they get a tank-aclimated fish and I can enjoy a fish that might otherwise need significant space {ie Scopas Tang}.
Posted by Ben:
My problem comes from the folks on these various boards who claim to know more than the experts who write books/articles on this subject such as Scott Michael, John Tullock and Nick Dakin, etc. If they claim that a fish can thrive in a certain size tank, who are we/you to argue?
We can argue because we are able to use our own common sense. We are also able to distinguish between what sells a book and what dosen't. If one of the above authors was to say that no large schooling fish should be kept in anything less than a 1000 gallon tank, what do you think the response to his book would be? IMO most of the authors have two goals:
1. To sell their book.
2. To raise the tank size "bar" in order to try and reach a happy medium on this debate.
I have yet to see one of these authors come on any of the boards and debate fish and tank size. Until they do, I will continue to believe my above two assumptions are correct.
Steve
My problem comes from the folks on these various boards who claim to know more than the experts who write books/articles on this subject such as Scott Michael, John Tullock and Nick Dakin, etc. If they claim that a fish can thrive in a certain size tank, who are we/you to argue?
We can argue because we are able to use our own common sense. We are also able to distinguish between what sells a book and what dosen't. If one of the above authors was to say that no large schooling fish should be kept in anything less than a 1000 gallon tank, what do you think the response to his book would be? IMO most of the authors have two goals:
1. To sell their book.
2. To raise the tank size "bar" in order to try and reach a happy medium on this debate.
I have yet to see one of these authors come on any of the boards and debate fish and tank size. Until they do, I will continue to believe my above two assumptions are correct.
Steve
One thing I have noticed with many of these posts is people will say well my tang is fat and healthy and stopped growing before they reached their max size. They stopped growing because they were stressed. Put them in a tank that is actually large enough and they will start growing again. The tang police are just giving a warning this time
Hey, it doesn't matter whether the marine animal is in a tank that is relatively large or small.
It's still a tank and not the ocean.
Gotta go. The dolphin in my bathtub splashed most of the water out again.
(sarcasm aside, I believe fish should be given the largest space possible and that the "big fish" like Naso tangs, rays, etc. on up don't belong in 99% of home aquariums)
It's still a tank and not the ocean.
Gotta go. The dolphin in my bathtub splashed most of the water out again.
(sarcasm aside, I believe fish should be given the largest space possible and that the "big fish" like Naso tangs, rays, etc. on up don't belong in 99% of home aquariums)
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