Is aquiring frags just to make us feel better?

[Bill2]

Putting Economics Aside (I'm not looking for the it's cheaper reply)


I know it seems popular lately to have the "Captive Raised/Bred tank." I'm begining to wonder what does that mean? How many of us truly have a all captive tank? At what point is a coral captive raised? Also is this practice any better than taking wild corals or does it just make us feel better?

It's funny I don't recall when but there was a thread about to buy or not to buy fish at large chain stores and many people chimed in to not buy the fish because it will only encourage them to keep selling fish. Well isn't that what we are doing with frags. Have we not now placed value on getting x coral and fragging it out? Are we not encouraging the collection of rarer corals because they demand a higher market price? Aren't the chop shops that we shun upon just a product of us placing a higher value on getting a captive frag as opposed to wild colony?

I hope the discussion on this topic progresses with no flames because it is and interesting one to me and I would hate to have this post closed due to immaturity.

Bill Crockett

 

[naesco]

Bill I have about 6 corals that came from frags.
I am stating the obvious now.
There are 6 corals in the oceans that are still there. That makes me feel a lot better about this hobby.
Where coral can be fragged or captive raised in my opinion the removal of them for import and sale should be prohibited.
I know the price will go up and the pieces will be smaller but it is the only right thing to do.
It will also encourage the captive raised industry to find even more methods of captive raised fish and coral because there will be more money and more demand for there product.

 

[Bill2]

I'm not saying that fragging should not occur. I believe fragging should occur more often than not. I'm just wondering although 6 corals are still in the ocean but 6 were removed so you can break off a branch off them. People don't want to have wild stuff but are willing to get frags from someone who did get a wild colony.

It's the mob boss didn't actually pull the trigger so he's innocent imo

Bill

 

[THillson]

Other than the reason already stated, reduced impact on the reefs and cost, IMHO the best reason to get captive frags is life. A frag from an established colony has already proven that it will survive in a captive system. Every time you buy an imported coral you take the chance that it will not be able to adapt to captivity. I've been doing small scale propagation for almost four years now. I can count on my hands the number of corals that I have either taken to a store or shipped that have not survived (excluding delivery screw-ups). I have some soft and stony corals that I've never seen another one of for sale. Another important fact is that no matter how hard we try, we can't replicate the natural system these corals came from. By starting out with a frag you give the coral a chance to grow to your system. How many imported SPS die because they came from a high energy area and the flows in our tanks just can't match that. Result, the coral dies of suffocation. Some corals just won't take shipping, i.e. xenia. I was lucky enough to get some several years ago that did make it. I've done over 450 xenia starts, that takes pressure off of the reefs.

Does it encourage importers and LFS to go for the really good stuff, sure. But, aren't they already doing that?

When do you consider it captive raised? For fish I would say the first generation. Since most corals don't reproduce sexually in our tanks, I'd say the frags taken from a colony grown from a frag.

 

[Bill2]

ok once again this is not a debate on the validity of fragging.....

It's a debate on the moral high ground some take when they state they have a captive grown tank

Bill

 

[Anonymous]

If you account for the statistics, the 6 corals that were left on the reef could actually be a much higher number. Throw in the corals that were lost in shipping and transporting to get those six corals to the LFS and it might be 12, 36 etc....

Customer wants a leather coral (easily fragged) so he orders one from the LFS who orders one from his wholesaler who orders one from the importer who gets one from the collector. At each step up the numbers of leather corals are considerably greater (i.e the collector has the most down to the LFS who has the least) when you consider the fact that it would have been possible to supply the collector (who has enough to supply everyone) from a fraction of the corals had they been fragged and the possibilities that they will survive have been greatly increased it looks like a good idea to me and something to feel good about since you are encouraging the practice with your money and support.

Glenn

[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Rover ]

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: Rover ]</p>

 

[Bill2]

Stir that is my point. Are you truly helping the reefs or is the same colony just being spread around.

Are we accomplishing what was orginally set out to do and lesson the impact upon reefs.

Bill

 

[naesco]

Bill2 the use of the words moral high ground smacks of superiority and is not the words I would use.
Pride and accomplishment come to mind; because you raise the corals from frags instead of buying a large chunk of a reef.
For example Bill if you showed me your tank and pointed out a couple of clownfish that would be nice. But, if you pointed out in your tank a 'harem' of baby clownfish that you had raised from a pair now that would be very interesting and cool. Big difference in my opinion.

 

[Bill2]

Naesco,
Why attach a label of All captive raised if it is only pride .Why not just say all corals grown from frags. People attach the no wild caught label to their reefs not as pride but as a i'm different than the rest at least. People have to plan captive only tanks and announce it when building the tank. Hard to have pride in a tank that isn't even stocked yet

If it smacks of superiority well sometimes I personally get that feeling. I get the feeling I'm better than you guys because I got all my corals from frags (who knows where they came from, but frags no less) and did not rape the reef That person may not be a direct raper of the reef but rather a second hand raper.

Bill

 

[npaden]

I'm with Thillison here. I find that fragging corals is much more likely to promote the life of that coral and that it will be spread around to more tanks hopefully and avoid the further taking of wild coral colonies.

I see that you are saying that if I didn't want a frag, maybe that coral would have never been taken, but this doesn't make as much sense for SPS as it does for LPS corals. I think there are several countries that have banned the import of several LPS species for this exact reason.

I guess it is late and I don't need to get sidetracked! Basically by fragging corals and actively trading with people you are helping to prolong the life of that colony in my opinion. We have a millepora colony locally that was purchased as a wild colony by a local reefer. He gave one frag of it to another local reefer. The original colony died but the frag was doing great so the frag was fragged and a piece was given back to the guy who had bought the original wild colony. The same coral has now been fragged many more times and resides in about have the tanks in Lubbock capable of sustaining SPS corals.

I feel that if the coral had not been fragged originally the original purchaser would have just turned around and puchased another wild caught colony after the first one died. More than likely his first few attempts would have ended up getting the wrong coral and possibly would have ended up killing those as well as even the possibility of killing the replacement coral once he finally found it. Not to mention the fact that many of us received a frag of the coral and didn't have to try and go out and get a wild colony just like his. Not to mention the corals that died in the collection string.

Oh well, hopefully what I'm trying to say will have gotten through here in my long winded novel!

I think frags are very benefical to the reefs, but the overall hobby still may not be.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[delphinus]

Some good thought provoking points here.

Personally I feel that "captive raised" implies that the entire growth has been in captivity -- ie. a coral grows 1" in a tank, we frag that 1", let it grow to a full colony, and any frag thereof would qualify as "captive raised." But otherwise it is just a "frag." Two very distinct notions. If we see a label "captive raised" then the onus should be on us to question its origins. If it was just imported and broken into pieces, then that wouldn't be an honest label.

 

[JeremyR]

In Matt's analogy, where it's a frag from a frag from a frag.. it's a great thing.

I think what most of you don't realize tho.. is that some of the largest and most popular "captive raisers" are simply ordering a big acro head from walt smith, chopping it up (chop shop), selling it to you.. and you think it's captive raised and sing their praises.. but all you are doing is buying a wild coral. I won't name names.. but anyone with any common sense can figure out who is doing what in some cases just by looking at the web page you are buying from, and looking at the species list of what they are selling.

 

[Bill2]

Before I go do my saturday stuff I would say this discussion is coming right along and guess what it's civilized

I agree with Matt and Jeremy about the frag from a frag from a frag is a great thing.

Should we as aquarist attach a higher morality onto a captive only tank since that is not "impacting" the reef many of us profess to love?

If so what guidlines should be set so the "all captive" tank is truly all captive?

Also I was thinking if i dumped a bunch of rocks in the ocean and let wild colonies attach (using loosely here guys for simplicity) on the rocks are my rocks still aquacultured or have I just provided a medium for nature to do it's duty? I really don't think so. If I collect a head off a pier in Fiji is it aquacultured now since I pulled it off a man made thing? To me that's still wild and if I take my reasoning to it's logical end I would say aquacultured rock is just as wild as other collected stuff because we aren't aquaculturing the rock we are just providing a matterial for the animals we desire to attach to.

Early mornings make me profound or maybe my brain hasn't turned on yet

Have a great Saturday .

Bill

 

[MattM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bill2:
<strong>People don't want to have wild stuff but are willing to get frags from someone who did get a wild colony.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not necessarily. In many cases a frag came from a colony that itself came from a frag. In some cases, we're talking about many, many, generations in captivity, which equates to hundreds of wild corals not collected. When it gets to that point then it makes a real difference, and it not just a "feel good" gesture.

Another area where we can make a real difference is at the LFS. I don't want to blow our own horn too much, but we don't have a single SPS in the store that came from the wild. We purchased all of them from our customers. Ditto mushrooms, leathers, xenia, nephthea, colt, E. quad anemones, etc.

We do still order wild cought corals, but only the ones we can't get from local propagators, and then only once every month or two, instead of every week like most LFS.

Here is where the hobbyist can have the biggest impact on the collection of wild animals - Buy tank raised in preference to wild caught and the LFS won't order as much wild caught. It eventually works it's way all the way up the chain. You can propose all the regulations you want, but the supply and demand relationship is how real change occurs.

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]</p>

 

[StirCrazy]

this is a realy good topic as I will be starting to purchase frags for my self in the near future, what I have to question is did the 6 frags you see at a lfs realy come from a captave colony? or did the supplyer just frag up a buch of new wild coarls to make more money? "150.00 for a big one but hey look it has 6 branches.. hmm 50.00 each branch = 300.00." This is my concern when I start purchasing frags.. are they realy captive frags or are they wild... and how can you tell?

Steve

 

[THillson]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bill2:
<strong>ok once again this is not a debate on the validity of fragging.....
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry, misunderstood the question

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr><strong>
It's a debate on the moral high ground some take when they state they have a captive grown tank
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Moral high ground? No, I don't think they can or should feel morally superior to someone who has wild colonies and fish in their tank. How else would they have acquired the captive grown stuff they have? Someone has to do it.

 

[naesco]

I salute those who take the time and spend the extra money seeking captive raised corals and fish.
I salute those who take the time to frag and share them with their friends.
You have a right to be proud of your tank and your endeavours.
Why anyone would criticize this is beyond belief and demonstates the weak links in our hobby.

 

[esmithiii]

Being proud of fragging is one thing. Touting your "All Captive Raised Tank" is another.

E

 

[Joe Kelley]

Great topic Bill2!! Growing corals is my hobby. I love these animals. When I was starting out I would get a small wild colony of Acropora and put it in my tank. The tissue would come off in a day or week. boo.
A friend gave me a start off a pocillopora that he had for quite a long time. It did not die and even grew. So health is better one reason to get a tank raised coral. It is fun for me to grow a whole colony from a 1" frag.
Is it cool? I like it. My tank has a mix of captive/wild corals/fish. It will be one year since any coral has been added. Come over and see the growth since the last MASLAC tank tour.

Choppers don't provide the health I look for in a coral. An already stressed coral is broken up usually insuring its fragments will die and possibly kill any corals it is kept with.

I like to see the coral that I am getting in person, on the web or picture, and or talk/write to someone about their experience with that coral.
To put it my way, I believe there are many hobbies inside the marine hobby. Some fill a tank with wild soft coral in the first week they set up and stick with that. Others are on other paths. I agree with you that the all captive raised tank trend is not yet an established criteria. No wild sand or rock just starts from others tanks? Maybe there will be one soon.
Conservation is #1 and having fun is #2 to me. I also think that sellers of tank raised corals should unify a method of showing the history a corals has had in captivity, maybe with pictures of that coral. When and how it was received.
This hobby of growing tank raised coral IMO is the most fun I have had in the marine hobby. Others may not feel that way. Importers may not like it!~) Market prices will vary according to what people will pay. Of all the exotic coral I have or have had, some of the common and fast growing are my favorites. ( A. yongie-Pocillopora).
There is no debate for me. This is fun. I have not bought a wild coral in a long time. Not for superiority, for fun and challenge.
By spreading corals to others that have been tank grown they go to the store less for wild corals.
That fun too. I do get your points.
Buyer beware!
Choppers beware the captive raised coral is healthier and alive!!! Viva la Acro!~)
Joe

 

[SPC]

Ernie, comparing a coral frag and a wolf is stretching it a bit IMO, now a tang and a wolf I would agree with

.