My semi-random rant for the month...

[IcantTHINKofONE]

Ok I'm taking a huge chance here because I know I'm going to get yelled at for this LoL. I don't think "true hobbyist" is the right term for the 1st class of aquarists. Most people who don't go by the rules in fishkeeping and lose fish and corals are still satisfied with their nice looking tanks; it's a hobby in itself for some to make the tank look nice instead of natural or healthy. for example, I'm into R/C nitro trucks and there are the hobbiests who love to build their trucks not according to the rules and drive them down a 50 step staircase and break a few things but they love doing it. There are also some people who build their trucks the "right" way and drive it slowly and carefully and clean the gears out and put it on their shelf nice and clean. I'm the kind that drives it off a cliff and keeps records of the least things broken (my record is 2, still working on 1). So bottom line is hobbies aren't limited or defined by those who do it the "right way" and are most educated about it; some people like to try out of the ordinary things and see what will happen.
Thanx for reading
Nick

 

[flameangel1]

IcantTHINKofONE,,

Experimenting with Trucks is one thing-experimenting with living creatures is quite another !!!!

 

[IcantTHINKofONE]

flameangel, some may agree and some may disagree. Personally, human beings are the only existence on this planet with any value in terms of a divine purpose of existence. I believe the stage has been set for human beings and a fish is no more valuable than a rock unless it's species is in danger of causing a problem in the world as a whole. But then again that's just my opinion. But as crazy as someone's opinions may seem to you, they are no less of a hobbiest than you. I'm just speaking tolerance of people's differnt views in humanity which is what I stand for. So calling someone less of a hobbiest because he/she doesn't do it your way is, to me, wrong.

P.S. I know on this board I'm the .000001% who thinks this way LoL so I don't expect anyone to agree.

 

[2poor2reef]

I think your statement that a living animal is no more valuable than a rock is a perfect illustration of what the original poster was talking about.

 

[IcantTHINKofONE]

2poor2reef, that's exactly the intolerance I'm talking about. Ypu have to understand some people have different views from yours.

 

[2poor2reef]

What intolerance? I just said your statement was a perfect example of what this thread is about. I tolerate your statement just fine. I think it speaks for itself.

 

[flameangel1]

IcantTHINKofONE,
I am at a loss for words as to how appalled I am at your posts above !!!!

Sincerely hope NO ONE else on this board agrees with your rational !!!!

 

[IcantTHINKofONE]

Intolerance of people's different opinion on life. That's the same problem that creates prejudice in this world. But forget it....that's getting off topic.

 

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't a clown fish care about the existence of an anemone, since these animals share a symbiotic relationship? I try not to "experiment" with animals in my tank for one reason being simple financials. I can't justify paying the prices some of these animals cost just because it looks cool, not knowing whether I can keep it or not. If I know what its requirements are and can keep it then I will. Doing some simple reasearch before purchases can't be that hard.

 

[reefsRcool]

:evil: :evil: :evil: ladies and gentlmen there is your example of everything wrong with the boy isn't this cool crowd. it is just amazing isn't it. if memory serves this was the same guy who wanted the shark in question that started this mess. i defended him a bit in the last thread thinking it was just beginers ignorance. no more. i hope his shark gets big enough to take a big ol' chunk out of him when he sticks his arm in to clean.

 

[IcantTHINKofONE]

IRONY: You are concerned about the "feelings" of a fish which you keep in a glass box. So he's as happy in your tank as he would be in the ocean huh?

 

[reefsRcool]

shut up you tard. why are you even on this board?

 

[IcantTHINKofONE]

reefsRcool, I'm in the hobby for the obvious reason...a 230 gallon tank looks nice in my wall. It just kills me how many hipocrits there are on this board. I've only been here for a month or so and it's funny how you all claim to be nature conservationists yet you house animals nativ to trillion gallon oceans in 10 gallon glass boxes.

 

[flameangel1]

IcantTHINKofONE,,

So he's as happy in your tank as he would be in the ocean huh?
********************************************
For most of us- yes !!!!!
That is what we strive for.
The objective of having a GOOD home for our animals,
means he would be as happy/healthy/and a whole lot safer !!!!!!!

 

[IcantTHINKofONE]

flameangel so you're saying if the fish was given a choice it would stay in your tank? Yea it's safer from predators there but so are people if they spend their entire lives in a bullet proof headquarters and never associate with anyone.

 

[reefsRcool]

it's nice to see that it's been less then a month since you bought your first tank and you are already an authority. my advice to you remove the tank and get a nice painting. then take a hammer to the tank so you never ever ever EVER get the urge to buy another fish. you disgust me

 

[Anonymous]

reefsRcool, I'm in the hobby for the obvious reason...a 230 gallon tank looks nice in my wall. It just kills me how many hipocrits there are on this board. I've only been here for a month or so and it's funny how you all claim to be nature conservationists yet you house animals nativ to trillion gallon oceans in 10 gallon glass boxes.

imho-the difference between your and the responsible hobbyists approach and attitude to the hobby, to respect for other living creatures, and for the general future of man as a species whos existence, divinely inspired or not, depends on the survival of other species, is profound.you are the type of customer i used to refuse to deal with, and asked to leave the stores i've worked in, and you should not be entrusted with the care of animals, sentiently self aware or not!

i was really never able to understand the mentality you represent, but i've seen the results played out thousands of times. :x

granted, many of the critters we keep came from the wild-but the act of keeping them does not in itself, of necessity show hypocrisy, especially if we make an attempt to provide for their welfare and learn about their proper husbandry,(who knows, maybe the reefers will one day be called upon to replace all the corals that are dying the world over now-)

i also have a big issue with any lfs that employs staff that is uneducated about the livestock they sell, and how to care for them.time and time again i've been approached by customers who reached the level of dedicated hobbyist, asking why it was possible for them to waste so much time,(and yes, money too)and heartache because of the incompetent b.s. they were fed by dolts that they trusted at some p.o.s. store! :evil:

i'll stop ranting now...

IcantTHINKofONE-"IRONY: You are concerned about the "feelings" of a fish which you keep in a glass box. So he's as happy in your tank as he would be in the ocean huh?"

first- look up irony's meaning!
second-i think your missing the point entirely-i think most educated reefers realize that a fish does not emote(if at all) on the same level as us.your analogy to the caged bird does not hold water- even for some birds.alot of the fish kept in reef tanks usually stay within a fairly limited range on the reef-clownfish may stay within an anemone's immediate vicinity their entire life, and the more responsible owners of fish like tangs try to provide them with as spacious a tank as they can.is it the same as their roaming ground in the ocean?no-but at least they have the sense of responsibility and conscience to make an effort!

furthermore-the fact that the dedicated hobbyist side of the industry is slowly but surely pushing for a demand for captive bred specimens should speak volumes, though i don't expect you to be able hear the message.

animals are not toys, but if we do decide to keep them, for whatever reasons, it should be clear that a moral obligation follows to make them as comfortable as possible, within our relatively limited means.

now i'm really done...

 

[914]

"holy crap!"

Somehow, i suspect that this viewpoint (the one esposed by icantTHINKofONE) is centered around that "dominion over all the animals" trite in the bible (depending on which of it's many versions (though all are the "word of god" in a literal sense) you prefer).

Personally, i find the idea of using living animals, no matter their specie, as playthings or disposable decorative items to be completely repulsive.


icantTHINKofONE certainly implied that such is his view. Such spiritually immature viewpoints certainly do exist in the world, though thankfully they seem to be scarce in this hobby, and on the decline overall.

 

[esmithiii]

Interesting discussion. A couple of points:

1st- ICantThinkOfOne is expressing some feelings I have quite often. Many of us (myself included) in this hobby seem to get self righteous all too quickly. Anyone who calls himself/herself a hobbyist and then goes on to criticize someone who states that "animals are just to amuse us" is a hypocrite. Plain and simple.

Our hobby kills more fish, coral and invertibrates than you could ever imagine. Even if you have never killed the first fish (I have killed my share through ignorance) you support individuals that do by buying drygoods, equipment, etc from those who do. Why do we do it? To have pretty little fish in a glass box.

No one in this hobby has any room to get self-righteous or high and mighty.

2nd- Fish and coral do not feel as we do. I do not like to see any creature in pain, but I find it amazing to see how bent out of shape people get over certain "atrocities" while ignoring others that are closer to home.

My belief system values human life above all other life. I believe that all resources at our disposal (living or otherwise) are to be used for our benefit. They are to be used wisely, prudently and wisely- not to be wasted. I believe that we will be held personally accountable for how we have used what has been given to us.

I believe in conservation. I believe strongly in captive propogation. I believe in teaching others about this hobby I love in order to preserve the hobby and the world's reefs. I believe in these things for mostly a selfish reason: If we do not focus on conservation, captive propogation and wise reefkeeping, we will not have a hobby in 10 to 20 years.

I think getting all bent out of shape over keeping a tang in a 55g tank is childish. There are so many more important things to spend the energy on.

Educating hobbyists is important. I myself will tell someone that a 30g tank is too small for a tang, but not out of outrage but because I truly want to help out other hobbyists.

Just my opinion.

Ernie

 

[Dewman]

Ok... I have resisted long enough.
I was not going to even get into this, but I have to interject my opinion, and "throw myself to the lions", so to speak.
Disclaimer: I am in NO way an expert on ANYTHING, ie reefs, fish, the meaning of life...etc.

Here I go. I believe in God. There, I said it.
I know that there are a lot of people ( left wing tree huggers) who do not. This is their RIGHT. I respect their opinion.
On the other hand, there is an other extreme group of radicals who will tell you that it's either "salvation or Damnation" no in-betweens. If you do not believe their way, you are wrong, and you are destined to burn for all eternity!

Excuse me while I put on the Nomex and asbestos...

Some of the people who have posted on this thread, I suspect, belong to the Non-God group. I have no problem with your view. But, I also suspect that mister ICANTTHINKOFONE is a believer.
I just wanted to point out to the first group, that, what they are doing to this guy, is exactly the thing they oppose most. Forcing their beliefs.


I am not defending this psycho...
I just wanted to point that out.

We are the ultimate Apex predator on earth. We are the masters of all we survey. I believe we are ultimately in control of all life on earth. We have the power to wipe out entire species. I do not know of any other animal on earth with that power. So we are burdened with an incredible responsibility to our planet and our proginy to manage all species to the best of our ability. Do I value a human life over any animal? Yes, i do, some do not.

It amazes me that the group who complains when a tree is cut or a deer is killed, is sometimes the same group who will march for a persons right to abort their own baby.

I think everyone needs a little perspective adjustment.

By the way, I love this board. And IcantTHINKofONE, you are a bit nuts IMO.