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I was just reading a thread that dealt with the keeping of a leopard shark in a 230 gal tank and started to respond. Well by the time I got to the end of what I had to say, I realized that it was a little more far-reaching than just that topic, so I thought I'd cut and paste and put it under a new thread. Hope nobody minds...

(In case you didn't read the thread, someone asked about keeping a leopard shark in a small tank and then got offended when several people bashed the daylights out of him for even considering it.)


It's not so much that you want to ask questions, it's that through blind luck or whatnot, you managed to peg one of the touchiest topics in the aquarium world. The common tenet is that the keeping of sharks (I'm talking true sharks here, not those 'bala sharks' for freshwater that are actually catfish) is a job best left to either mother nature or commercial aquariums, who are able to care for the animal throughout its entire lifespan. The reason, I think, that some 'oldbies' on the boards go overboard on this topic is because it seems like every month or two there comes along a person new to the hobby who has it in his head to jam a pelagic shark into a tank that will meet its needs for at most a couple months. I don't know if any of the following applies to the original poster or not; this is where I veer off-track and start talking more generally. While it's true that there's no way to learn without asking, these people often come to the boards and don't bother to do a speck of research, but blindly jump in with "I've got a xx gal tank and want to keep a yyy shark. That's okay, right?" In too many cases, the person has already purchased said animal.

I think this type of aquarist grates people the wrong way because... (Okay, here comes my philosophy on aquarists, after over a decade of working various aspects of the retail aquarium market.) It seems like there are two types of marine aquarist.

1. The true conservationist/aquarist. These are the people that are constantly trying to learn more about the way nature works, in order that they can better keep their aquarium and its inhabitants happy and healthy. This aquarist rejoices over an ugly brown coral that's in his tank not because of its beauty, but because of its rarity or low hardiness. This aquarist has taped the entire 'Blue Planet' series and watches them over and over.

2. The 'keeping up with the joneses' aquarist. This person wants a saltwater aquarium because they're "cool." They want to show all their buddies a lionfish slurping in a goldfish, and nevermind that goldfish will cause fatty deposits on the liver of the lionfish when damn, ain't that cool how he eats them goldfish?! This aquarist has no compunctions about taking a shark that needs a 5,000 gallon tank and dropping him in a 75 until the poor creature dies from bashing its nose into the glass. If you're looking at the shark in this aquarist's tank and ask what the Ampullae of Lorenzini are, this aquarist will return nothing but a blank stare. Odds are this aquarist has probably bought a porcupine puffer at some point in his career, gleefully poking and prodding it for his friends it so that it will swell, never bothering to research (or pay attention) that this is a disasterously last-resort defense for the puffer, and at the very least causes intense stress, while at the very worst will split the skin of the puffer wide open. This aquarist has probably dumped several anemones into his tank, letting them bask in the glow of his two, count 'em two lightbulbs (and one of em's even that fancy blue bulb!).

It depresses me to even think about it sometimes. And notice that I wrote twice as much about that second type. I didn't realize it at first, but as I was writing I realized that I know much more about that second guy because that's about 80% of the people in this hobby. Until we educate these people and either fix them or weed them out of the hobby, the hobby will continue to get a bad reputation from everyone from the government to the media.

Honestly, I started this post as a reply to a post (and mini-flame-war) about shark-keeping, but I guess I rambled off topic a bit. Sorry about that, but I think amidst our thoughts about lighting, filtration, and mating clownfish, it's important that we realize what those other people are thinking when we're standing there in the LFS.


Happy reefing everyone, I've got to go check on my maroon clowns to see if they've laid another clutch of eggs.


-John
 

slojmn1

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John, Very nice descriptions. I sure am glad I have the 'Blue Planet' series, whew :D

On a serious note you are so right. I do get a little frustrated reading some threads and hearing horror stories, or worse overhearing some of the stuff that goes on in the lfs...UGGGG that just makes my stomach turn.
 
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Anonymous

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most of the time person #2 is just looking for somebody to say

"Don't worry about it that shark egg is pretty small, and besides if we left it in the ocean it would just start eating surfers. You're doing mankind a favor by keeping it."

This way someone else justified thier actions and when it dies, hey its not my fault person X told me I could do it.
 

SPC

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Very well said Sharkky! The only disagreement I might have would be your 80% figure, IMO it is over 90% :( .
Steve
 

yellow_dog

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Well said, Sharkky! Some may accuse me of being old school, but I think that there is a subcategory of the keeping up with the Jonses aquarist. Lately on this board and others I see user X post that he/she is setting up a reef. A later post by user X says that they have set up their tank with 400W halides & a Gemini 1000 skimmer and all the bells and whistles. A yet later post says that user X is looking for orange ricordia, a rose anemone, blue tabletop acros, and whatever else is the hot rare coral of the month. 2 months later, user X is posting on the marketplace board that they are selling all their equipment, getting out of the hobby, and not explaining that they had managed to kill all of their very rare animals in the process. Too many newbies treat this like a passing fad and a status symbol, accumulating and many times killing what unfortunately are rare animals. While they have a right to do this, it gives hobbyists a bad rap as being irresponsible or exploitive by environmental groups and legislators.
 

slojmn1

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Uh Oh...I aquired a Rose BTA, two types of orange ricordia, and a beautiful green table top acro frag all in the last 4 months :lol: :lol: :lol: . Good thing I have that 'Blue Planet' series to keep me in the first group.

Again, on a serious note... these animals are all thriving in my tank as are all of my critters. I choose very carefully and try my hardest to get frags from others 95% of the time. Thinking things through and adequately researching each animal one is thinking of keeping is just the responsible way to do this hobby. PERIOD.
 

danmhippo

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Hey, Sharkky dude, this world is not just black and white, there are always people falls in the grey category like I! Although I do not have the blue planet series, but I have quite a book collection. I will dedicate my collections to the Deresa that died because I moved him too much. :(
 

yellow_dog

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Slojmn,

Glad to hear that you got these rarities and from your posts on the board know you will give them a good home :) My point was that the market place board is a good indicator of the majority of folks in the hobby right now. Lots of posts for 4 month old equipment and entire set ups = god knows how many fried fish and corals that caused their exit from the hobby.
 

eddi

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I have to agree with Danmhippo. Nothing is black and white. Idealism will only get you so far. Yes, the overwhelming majority of the aquarists have tanks so they can impress their friends, but at least some of them take the time to read this board and ask questions. If all we do is bash them they will eventually stop reading and asking and the problem will get worse.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not condoning them nor am I trying to justify them. All I am doing is accepting they exist and doing my best to educate them.

Hopefully we are making a difference.


Eddi
 

K77

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ffffttt...ffffftttt.....oh crap, I can't whistle in text. And somehow I get the feeling there is definitely not a smiley face for that. How about just a wink. :wink:

I have two comments on this though. The first is a little rant of my own. This hobby is a little different than something more physical like 4 wheeling or something. When a vendor sells a four-wheel bike or something they can seel the best one on the market and not have lost much morality. But in this hobby, vendors are so ready to sell a gigantic setup to someone who has no idea at all how to run it. And this is not a slap in the face of the store owners. I think many of them have the best intentions. But unfortunately the people who actually interact with customers and sell these complicated LIVING creatures are generally teenage kids who have no idea how to even take care of the tanks in the store, let alone how to best advise someone about XX fish is going to work out in YY tank! I was at a store last night and found it sickening to see colonies of beautiful tabletop acros that the store had started selling. Half of them were bleached because the people who take care of tanks don't have a clue, and it was absolutely ludicrous to see teenage kids trying to advise on something that to them was just some kind of coral that looked like a "rock"! A customer can get more info on how to take care of a camel from a livestock auction than that!

Ok, I'll let that subject go, because I have too much to say on it. But the next comment is that I agree that the fly-by-night wannabees are bad. But the ones that I DO have respect for are the ones that find out that its not just expensive, but its also time consuming and you have to learn a lot, and they still stick with it and ask questions. (I don't consider myself to know that much. I'm barely to the point where I feel comfortable experimenting with some montiporas.) But the difference between someone who is willing to learn the hobby and the fly by night "look a my cool fish" folks that you refer to is a healthy amount of respect for the hobby that they decided to take up. If they want to learn, then at least they have some respect for it. And I hope that I can at least consider myself in that catagory.

Now, as for the Blue Planet series...geesh, I found it dissapointing except for the one episode on reefs. It was mostly about whales, sharks, predatory animals, and the kind of fodder that feeds public interest. So, I only taped part of it. Does that only make me half a hobbyist? :lol:
 

reefsRcool

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i will second k77's second commentary. i have only been doing this for about a year and a half so i am still very much a rookie and make some mistakes/ poor decisions. i think alot of people want to do right they just don't know where to turn to get good information. at least that is where i was for a while. now it seems i have come into more information then i could posibly procces and it's all coming together. to all you old salts be nice to the newbies they all probably came from some crappy store where they got bad info. to any new reefers take your lumps and don't be so defensive. nobody likes to be called dumb, but we have all done dumb things at some point, suck it up and try to learn from those who have been there and done that.

for every lie i unlearn i learn something new- ani difranco

lets all play nice from now on :roll:
 

SPC

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Posted by reefsRcool:
i think alot of people want to do right they just don't know where to turn to get good information.

-IMO most people only want good information if it is in the form of a quick fix. Ask any one who has worked at an LFS for a while and they can tell you the very low % of true hobbiest. People who come to these boards are in the vast minority of those who keep aquariums. This is not because people don't know about the information available on the internet or in books, but because they simply don't want to put this much effort into learning. You can lead a horse to water....
Steve
 
A

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My 80 gal reef is about a 18 months old. I've kept freshwater tanks for over 20 years. I purposely avoided saltwater because of all the horror stories. Over the years the information got better and better. At a point I began hearing more success stories and decided to go for it. With the information available today, I felt comfortable setting up a reef. I also did 4 months of research, a lot of it reading this board. Didn't take me long to figure out what the limitations of my tank would be. So far, I have stayed within those limitations. I still have issues that i'm dealing with before I spend a ton of money on corals. I have just a few fish that are fat and happy. I have never felt a need to keep up with the Jones', even after viewing many of the beautiful reefs I've seen on this board. Yes, I want a nice tank like everyone elses, but I never expected it to be instant. My tank has provided much enjoyment even in it's infant stages and I wouldn't want to skip this portion of it's development, even if I could. I honestly believe that trying to keep up with the Jone's is the biggest problem new reefers have. It just doesn't happen overnight.

Eric
 

K77

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SPC":1bs6cfvg said:
Posted by reefsRcool:
i think alot of people want to do right they just don't know where to turn to get good information.

-IMO most people only want good information if it is in the form of a quick fix. Ask any one who has worked at an LFS for a while and they can tell you the very low % of true hobbiest. People who come to these boards Steve

Well, going back to the original theme sharkky had, there really ARE two types of hobbyists. Those that truely want to learn and have some respect for their reefs, FOWLR, or whatever setup thy have. And those that want to buy a complete setup, whether it be a shark tank, reef tank, lion tank, or whatever, and sit back in their living room and show it off to their friends and think "man, I'm cool."

Its really the second type I think that gets under most of our skins. I personally wouldn't fault someone who got bad advice from their LFS, or someone who's really trying to learn. But out of the second type, the worst thing is, they really don't care whether their tank inhabitants are happy or not. And I know I'm basically paraphrasing Sharkky's post, but I agree with him that what really makes a hobbyist upset is the lack of respect and the lack of caring from 90% of the people that step into a Salt water store. And I think most, not all, salt water stores tend to encourage that kind of attitude.
 

SPC

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Posted by K77:
I personally wouldn't fault someone who got bad advice from their LFS, or someone who's really trying to learn.

-I don't believe anyone on this board would, thats why we're here. The problem is that those that frequent the boards and read books are in the vast minority. I just find it irresponsible to continue to blame others (LFS etc...) in this day and age with all of the easily obtainable information we have. All of us started out going to the LFS and ended up with great reef tanks, why, because we took the responsibility of learning all we could about the proper care on our own. Are many of the LFS crap, you bet, but that is still no excuse IMO for not being able to run a successful reef tank.
Steve
 

2poor2reef

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I'll tell you what I'm sick and tired of: touchy people who screw up big time and then get all offended when people tell them the straight-up truth. I'm not talking about being rude. I'm not talking about being a jerk. I'm talking about offering constructive criticism and then being accused of flaming without any concern about whether the comments were true or not. I think reefs.org is unique in that it has a great bunch of regulars that don't have this problem. But I have quit posting on two other boards because the whiney, overly sensitive, category 2 hobbyists have come to dominate those boards. When that happens the experienced reefers stop posting. What's left are the blind leading the blind. I feel bad for their animals, but that's the way life is.

Even when I posted on several boards I asked 90 percent of my questions on reefs.org. Even though the traffic was heavier on other boards. I would rather get a few straight-up replies from experienced hobbyists, even if they contain a little sarcastic criticism, than a huge number of worthless replies from well meaning and polite but inexperienced reefers.
 

flameangel1

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Sharkky,,
You sound like you just finished a long day of owning a LFS -LOL !!!
I agree with your two kinds of hobbyists.

Won't start a rant here, but I get 95 % of the #2 variety and spend hours on each one of them TRYING to get them to be the #1 kind.
Why???
People do not want to learn by themselves.
They just want to know a quick 6 word / 4 letter answer to their current question !!!
I have books /flyers/website/newsletter/constant e-mails with the "why" of things.
But still get the same questions over and over for years from the same customers. "what should my ph be" !!!!!

"But I just spent $25.00 on that undergravel filter from that other store and I don't want to waste it".

Trying to get people to BUY books is a totally lost cause.
Can't afford to keep loaning them as they do not get returned.
So they take the books off the shelf and look at the PICTURES !!!
The words are what is important-doesn't anyone read anymore ???

Oh Dear- guess this is a rant-- just a long day of people who have no respect for nature, too much respect for the almighty dollar, only want the quick answer, and people who want to keep an elephant in a dog cage !!!!

Yes, I do have some good people and they make up for the rest,
but it does get very discouraging.
And then there is the LFS bashing on the net to deal with.

Sorry, long day and the million dollar question-"did I actually help anyone /anthing"???
 

philakapd

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Wow, what a discussion going on in here! This is terrific.

I've been in the hobby about three years now. I started with a 45 gal bowfront and a prism skimmer. Here I am three years later, with a 135 custom acrylic tank and oak stand with all the filtering "goodies" to go with it. During the time of reading, reinforcing the floor, and water changes, I find I'm still deathly afraid of putting in corals and other inverts. I have always thought about adding inverts (aside from what may hitch a ride on some LR), but have decided to wait even longer.

Education and evolution into the hobby is needed for a Newbie. I think a majority of us can remember how exciting it was to put water and ocean life in the tank and watch as you play "Demi-God". Lots of people want that pretty purple rock with that mushy stuff sticking out of it, NOW. No waiting, just do it and gamble.

I would like to thank all of you for the wonderful facts and opinions you send each and every day. I'm addicted to this website. I find myself reading and comparing info 99% of the time. The 1% is responding.

Not everyone is sick like most of us who use these boards. Maybe the gamblers have the right idea after all. Just buy it and try it. Hmmm, just a thought. I have to go now and attach the coaxial cable into my brain stem; I saw this done by Keenu Reeves in the "Matrix". I will probably remember more information when I watch the discovery channel. Just my 1%.

Phil
 

flameangel1

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Steve,,
THANK YOU !!!

philakapd,,
What is needed by the hobbyists/newbie/all of us--
is an understanding/respect for nature, good deal of common sense,
and a strong need/ willingness to listen/read and learn.


14 years of 24/7 hands on with many tanks,
and I still only know half what I want to know !!!
The more one learns, the more one realizes how little we know.

But, the learning is fun !!!!!!
(to me anyway)
 

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