Niger Trigger reef safe?

[Anonymous]

Pirate,
Well, to each his own. I think it would be incredibley unfair of you to judge this entire board because of a single thread ruined by someone by some less than tactful input. Myself included.
As for myself, I can't stomach someone posting something that is grossly inacurate as if it were fact, and with an authoritative attitude to boot. Somone did it just a few weeks ago regarding an 'ich' discussion -annoying! It just sets me off. I don't beat around the bush, and I call a spade a spade. I don't feel the need to sugarcoat things under such circumstances. If you're going to come on here or any board and ask questions, that's great. If you want to lend an opinion, that's great to. If you have legitimate information to lend, even better. This is a discussion board after all. If however you come on here and start spewing false info, expect to get called on it. I don't suffer such individuals very well. Call it a weakness. I've been keeping fish far too long, and have too much hard earned knowledge to let someone proclaim some ridiculous piece of garble as the truth and with an attitude no less. I'm not saying I know everthing, I learn from this board all the time. I do however, recognize what I do, and do not know, and post accordingly. That's the skill some people lack it seems.
Much of my personality is lost in the translation between spoken word and written word. It's that way for many I think. The internet tends to exagerate differences. So many nuances necessary to communication are lost, nonverbal cues, facial expressions, etc. I've said this before. The result is that my style can be abbrassive at times if I'm not careful, and I reign it in as much as I can usually. I see this in other folks as well, but I understand that it's just the nature of written communication.
Anyway, for the most part I've learned not to worry too much about it, as I'm not going to tip toe around - not my style Only certain types of folks tend to fall victim to it anyway.
In conclusion - NO DON'T GO! PLEAAAAASE! There are some wonderful people on this board.
Better?

Cheers
Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Good Post Seamaiden - thank you. This thread needs to get back on track.
Funny, I was hoping that the niger that I added to my latest reef was indeed going to be a wimp - I was counting on it! However as luck would have it, he decided to buck the system and eventually became rather aggressive. I had to remove him for the good of the other fish.
It was my fault actually, as I stupidly added him before I was done stocking the tank with fish. I know better, but did it anyway.
I could probably get away with adding another one now - but no space!
He didn't bother any corals or other inverts though, including a 6" T. maxima.



Cheers
Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Entirely anomalous, Jim?? Heh..

 

[TheZooFarmer]

Well since we are quoting websites here we go!

http://www.marinedepotlive.com/763814.html

"The Odonus niger is a carnivore and likes to eat variety of meats (fish, scallop, shrimp, squid, clam) & veggies. The Niger Trigger is a low maintenance fish and may act aggressively toward other fish. Not reef-safe"

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishe ... rs/odonus/

"safe for rough and tumble fish-only systems"

http://www.fishdomain.com/trigger_niger.shtml

"Despite their overall good nature the Niger is still very hostile towards invertebrates like shrimps and crabs, viewing them solely as a tasty meal."

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod ... pCatId=257

"Reef Compatible: No
Diet: Carnivore "

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/index_order1.html

"Reef Safe: No"

http://www.centralpets.com/phpscripts/P ... umber=2287

"If you do plan to keep your Niger Trigger in a reef environment (not recommended), introduce it last, and try to avoid including such inhabitants as cleaner shrimp or hermit crabs, which some Niger Triggers may eat. Observe it carefully to be sure you do not have to remove it. Niger Triggers may nibble at corals, and some may root in the sand, causing sediment to fall on corals."

WOW I just quoted 6 different websites, they all say what I just said. And I am curious Sea Maiden, do you think you can keep a niger trigger alive in a home aquarium without direct feedings? If no then your theory on niger triggers being planktivores are out the door. What a fish does in the ocean is of no importance nor relevance to the hobby. Because the last time I checked there are no flakes, pellets or cubes being eaten in the ocean so for you to say they are planktivores you are implying they will feed in the home aquarium like they do in the ocean.

AND THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.

And jim for you to even say you failed with a trigger, you contradict yourself with every post.

Now back to the original question, is the niger trigger reef safe.

NO

 

[Anonymous]

as some of you may know, once i arrive the subject matter might not ever fall back on topic :wink:

i want to express my support of all of those well informed, straight talking, sometimes stylistically challenged as well as inappropriately labeled "a-holes" that come on this board and disallow misinformation to fall into the hands of the uninformed.
i honestly am reliant on this board for it's reviews.

i have no real valid opinion on Niger Triggers reef compatibiltiy but what i can add is that a planktivore may indeed need target feeding in a closed system so i fail to see the point in The ZF's last post.

also, "reef safe" is a slippery term to argue in this respect, IMHO.

 

[Anonymous]

This is getting more and more stupid with every post. First of all, I didn't contradict myself. I said I got rid of the fish because it got aggressive, that has NOTHING to do with with it being, or not being reef safe. Is that so hard to comprehend? :roll:
Secondly, I supppose because it says something on the net, it must be true right? For crying out loud, I can pull up a website that says the earth is flat and that we never landed on the moon.

O. niger is zooplanktivor, it's a fact. It's not an obligate zooplanktivore, also a fact. It's generaly reef safe, a fact as well. I had one in a reef, it did just fine - that's called empirical data. You might want to look that term up, as you lack it in droves. Move on with your life.

Regards

 

[TheZooFarmer]

So jim are you saying that all of these websites

marine depot
wet web media
fish domain
live aquaria
saltwater fish
central pets

are wrong, misinformed, or lying?

Hey, how about some more websites?

http://www.aquaticretail.com/product_in ... ucts_id=49

"reef safe: No
invert safe: No "

http://www.aquatic-creations-online.com ... iggers.htm

"This fish is aggressive. It is known to rearrange its tank, including large pieces of rock. It is not recommended to keep this fish with smaller fish, as it will probably eat them."

WOW that is 8 websites and I searched for all of 15 minutes. Hey maybe you can post a couple of websites that says the fish is reef safe?

So lets check the facts

I have owned or cared for more niger triggers then you have.
I personally know more people that own niger triggers then you do.
I have posted 8 different websites that have all had information concurrent with what I have posted.
You have not posted a single piece of supporting information.
You have admittedly removed a niger trigger from your own tank because it had become to aggressive.

Hey but keep on using words like "empirical" and maybe you can make yourself sound smart.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

:roll:
Please cool down (those that are hot)
:roll:

 

[Anonymous]

And I am curious Sea Maiden, do you think you can keep a niger trigger alive in a home aquarium without direct feedings? If no then your theory on niger triggers being planktivores are out the door. What a fish does in the ocean is of no importance nor relevance to the hobby. Because the last time I checked there are no flakes, pellets or cubes being eaten in the ocean so for you to say they are planktivores you are implying they will feed in the home aquarium like they do in the ocean.

Zoo, I never mentioned feeding, nor alluded to anything of the sort. You're putting words into my "mouth". It's not really necessary. Nor is your hostility. I'm hoping it's possible to have a civil discussion civilly. I believe I'm being civil towards you, and I would appreciate it greatly if you could treat me with the same respect. Your tone is actually downright hostile.

I'm not telling you that you're completely wrong, I'm telling you (and by proxy others) that I'm not entirely wrong, either. What I stated isn't a theory, any more than what you've found and stated is a theory. There are, as I said before, generalities, and anomalies. My own experience with Nigers has shown them to be quite timid. I also know all too well the Golden Rule of Fish--if it fits in its mouth it will eat it. Have I, myself, ever kept them in a reef? No, not my own. Have I observed these animals in a home reef setting? Yes, I have. Was it successful? Well, at least up to the point that I last observed.

 

[TheZooFarmer]

seamaiden, I have never meant to be hostile towards you so if I have come off that way I apologize. But when a less experienced reefer comes on this board and asks about a fish's reef compatibility, whether or not the fish eats zooplankton in the wild is of ZERO relevance.

I have posted not only from my experience with the fish in question, but I have also posted numerous supporting materials that support my first hand knowledge and experience.

Can you name a single post or poster on this thread that has done this besides myself?

Can you name a poster that says moronic statements like

"I can pull up a website that says the earth is flat and that we never landed on the moon."

"Managing an LFS doesn't add to your credibility, nor does it negate woefully incorrect information spewing form your keyboard."

"Congrats on setting up a single fish tank for a buddy with a trigger that eats frozen silversides. I guess that negates all the common, collective knowledge on this fish"

I guess the 8 websites I referenced, including the one you referenced lack
the

"common, collective knowledge"

this person has been posting about.

Every other person who has posted has had problems with fish, inverts, or corals. I guess they too must lack the

"common, collective knowledge"

this person has been posting about.

I think this person needs to either post links to either books or websites that supports his theories or stop giving out horrible confusing information to people seeking help.

 

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the apology, Zoo, as well as your input.

 

[Anonymous]

Zoo,
I could fill a book with some of the bad info on those sites you listed. If you want accurate info, visit a site like CoralRealm.com. Nuff said about that.

"I have owned or cared for more niger triggers then you have"

And you know this how? Do you also know what time I pee in the morning?



"I personally know more people that own niger triggers then you do."

Again, you know this because? More assumptions. Again, credibility slipping away rapidly.




"I have posted 8 different websites that have all had information concurrent with what I have posted"

Congrats on your ability to find false or incomplete info in the net. Hey, look up "alien autopsy"



"You have not posted a single piece of supporting information."


Uhhh...yes I have. You choose to ignore it. If your definition of supporting information is websites, then no I haven't. You see I can easily pull references from sites and books that have reliable info, quote passages from known and respected authors such as Scott Micheal, Terry Siegel, etc. But I don't have time for that. It's like doing research to prove to someone that a lion is a carnivore - it's a known fact and a waste of my time. It's like arguing with a child.

"You have admittedly removed a niger trigger from your own tank because it had become to aggressive. "

Ok, look, I will say this one more time. This is the one that really gets me. Aggressivness in a fish has NOTHING to do with it being reef safe! I have a tomato clown that is a little terror, and I've thought about removing her for the same reasons I removed the niger. That doesn't equate to it not being reef safe though does it? Why is that such a difficult thing to get across? These are seperate issues. The fact that you don't understand this concerns me just a bit. This seems like a no brainer to me. Even a newbie understands this concept usually. You can also have a perfectly calm fish that eats every coral in site. This is called NON REEF SAFE. I hope I have cleared this up. Clowns sometimes throw sand on corals too, so you might not want that individual clown in your tank. They are by a large however, reef safe. Yes, some nigers have annoying habits as any fish can, but they generaly don't eat inverts, and generaly don't disturb the substrate.
Mine didn't.


Look, I'm done with this, honestly I feel like an idiot even humoring you with a discussion at this point. Or, at the very least I'm in danger of coming across as a jerk to everyone else if I haven't already. As I said above, sometimes this medium just doesn't lend itself well to this sort of thing, especially with certain personalities at the helm of the keyboard. It exagerates differences. What would be friendly, if lively debate in person becomes an attack on a message board. Agreed?
Nothing happens the same way all the time. Sure, there have been nigers that were not reef safe, just as there have been yellow tangs that were not reef safe. This doesn't change what is generaly true about either species. People have posted on this very thread that they have kept them in reefs with success (including me) but you conveniently ignore it.
Another thing, I don't feel the need to 'sound smart' as you put it. I let my posts stand on thier own, good bad or ugly. What I always make sure of though, and I said this above - I only speak of what I know. You won't find posts by me giving long disertations about the requirements of acropora and other corals. I grow them, but know little about them. Fish - I know. So that is where most of my attention goes on this board. I could list qualifications on my behalf, but I don't think that would come across very well.
I learn much here, because I know what I don't know. If you can't do that, you will never learn a thing.

Peace
Jim

 

[Len]

:roll:
Please cool down (those that are hot)
:roll:

I'll second this request.

TheZooFarmer: Please take this as constructive crictism: try not to be so argumentative and hostile in your responses. Everyone is welcomed to express their opinions as well as disagree with others, but we can all do so with tact and civility. Although you might not mean to be hostile, your words are very abrasive and rub off the wrong way with most people (e.g., your persistent use of sarcasm and deragotory references such as "moronic"). You've posted under a different user name in the past with the same communication problems (for lack of better words) you're experiencing now. If you need any advice on how to avoid these problems in the future, feel free to email me.

Back to the topic at hand:
Many of the people in this thread who have kept Niger Triggers (myself included) have said they are indeed coral-safe. I have strong reservations about adding a Trigger to a reef tank for various reasons, but Niger's are reef-safe when viewed in context of its classical definition (reef-safe: [adj.] organisms that do not consume decorative corals). I think you and I are reading posts in this thread completely differently, Zoofarmer.

 

[Len]

Ok, for some reason or other I confused Niger's with Blue-throats. I blame it on common names I've never kept a Niger but have seen them in no less then two reef tanks. They're definitely not "as safe a Trigger as you can get" as I originally stated (that honor goes to Xanthichthys sp Triggers like X.auromarginatus I had thought we were discussing ), but they are still reef-safe IMO/IME, even if only as a risky candidate.

 

[TheZooFarmer]

Once again jim has not posted a single shred of supporting evidence. And seamaiden referenced wetwebmedia as well as I have, it clearly states that the niger trigger is not reef safe.

It seems like jim likes to throw names of authors around but thinks that the board is not worth posting some of this information he claims to have seen.

But if I my reference one more piece of print, you might of heard of it, Advanced Aquarist and the author is Greg Schiemer

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/Fish.htm


"The ornery disposition of most triggerfish is absent in the crosshatch. It’s a relatively mellow fish that tends to ignore its tank mates. It will mix well with most other reef fish, although I wouldn’t suggest introducing small Pseudochromids, or similar bite-sized fish, into a tank of adult crosshatch triggers. They could be mistaken for a special food treat. On the other hand, existing small damsels, wrasses and basslets are generally ignored.
If you want to try your hand at something less exotic and less expensive than the crosshatch triggerfish, the similar blue-throat trigger (Xanthichthys auromarginatus) and sargassum triggerfish (Xanthichthys ringens) are good alternatives. These fish are easier to find and generally hardier than the crosshatch trigger. They also don’t grow as large. The related genus, Melichthys, offers additional possibilities, such as the popular pink-tail trigger (M. vidua)."

Wow I wonder why Greg did not even mention the timid reef safe (and cheap) niger trigger jim has been telling us about?

And jim since you have mentioned coralrealm.com, why not post something from that one single website that supports what you are saying?

Now jim every time you post without evidence you lose credibility if you have any more to lose. Hey I will make a deal with you, lets say I have never owned a niger trigger. No lets says I have never even seen a niger trigger but I am hoping to put one in my reef tank with small fish and invertebrates. jim can you point me to anything that would say it is ok and recommended?

 

[Anonymous]

:roll:

 

[TheZooFarmer]

I will take that as a no.

 

[Anonymous]

Which stands to reason, as you've haven't understood anything else that's been posted in this thead either.

 

[TheZooFarmer]

I want to apologize to jim, I did not know that he knows every single employee at every single pertco in the country.


jim says

"First of all, Petco is the worst place to go for advice. It just so happens in this case that they are right."


After all jim you would have to know them all to make this statement, right?

 

[Minh Nguyen]

Zoo & Jim,
IMO, the real problem here is that you guys use two different definitions of reef safe.
Minh