Niger Trigger reef safe?
- Thread starter ChrisV
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As far as triggers go, they are the closest thing to reef-safe you can get. If I recollect correctly, they're considering planktivores, but don't hold me to it. I think that if you feed them VERY well, you might enjoy a measure of success, though I personally have never put a trigger in a reef system. Try a search in our library, as well as Advanced Aquarist. I'd also search Bob Fenner's information on http://www.wetwebmedia.com
Niger Triggers are not reef safe. They will eat all invertebrates and small fish and they are not planktivores as seamaiden has posted (although she said she was unsure). The blue throat trigger and pink tail trigger are planktivores and are as reef safe as triggers go. I have kept a blue throat in a reef with snails, crabs, small gobies and shrimp without a single problem. Although every now and then the trigger would nip on a leather he was otherwise a perfect resident of the reef. Keep in mind these fish are very skittish and need a 100% closed canopy or they will end up on your floor. Not to mention that they also need at least a 6' tank. I hope this helps.
Jack
Jack
I have a Niger in with softies and lps. When I first introduced him he took a bite of some frilly mushrooms and then puckered up his face like they tasted bad and never touched them again. So he is in a reef that is pretty heavily stocked and does fine, but I would not advise keeping them with clams, I think the risk of them eating clams would be too high. Because it's my understanding that most corals have compounds that don't taste very good, but some fish can handle it. Clams don't have any of that, that's why people can eat them raw as sashimi. I think if a Niger sampled a clam, it would be all over for clammy.
Maybe it would work, but I wouldn't risk a nice clam.
Maybe it would work, but I wouldn't risk a nice clam.
I wouldn't be surprised if feeding them VERY well would help the possible nipping, and I agree with you wholeheartedly about the clams. I thought about mentioning the blue-throats and pink-tails, but figured we're talking pretty much samesame and the query was specifically about Nigers. I will say this, though, I personally find blue-throats and pinktails more attractive than Nigers, just my personal opinion. And I think 100 gallons would end up being a bit slim for a full-grown Niger.
Sorry Zoofarmer, (Jack) you are a bit off here I'm afraid. I'm not sure if you're thinking of a another trigger, or you're knowledge is just a bit lacking in this department. Or perhaps you are posting because if a single anomolous incident with this fish. Whatever the case, I'm afraid your post is incorrect. Seamaiden was right on the money.
Odonus niger is in fact a zooplanktivore. It's not up for debate or subject anyone elses opinion. It's known, observed and documented, and frankly is fairly common knowledge. Furthermore they are reef safe in most regards, and usually only pose a threat to small crustaceans. Fish are safe unless they are VERY small. Again, this is common knowledge as well.
I had one in a 150 gallon reef, and just recently removed him for reasons that Len touched on. He was just a bit too much, and started to get a little too aggressive for my taste. He didn't bother a single invertebrate in the tank, and certainly wasn't in danger if eating any fish.
Sorry to correct you, but your post is very misinformed.
Regards
Jim
Odonus niger is in fact a zooplanktivore. It's not up for debate or subject anyone elses opinion. It's known, observed and documented, and frankly is fairly common knowledge. Furthermore they are reef safe in most regards, and usually only pose a threat to small crustaceans. Fish are safe unless they are VERY small. Again, this is common knowledge as well.
I had one in a 150 gallon reef, and just recently removed him for reasons that Len touched on. He was just a bit too much, and started to get a little too aggressive for my taste. He didn't bother a single invertebrate in the tank, and certainly wasn't in danger if eating any fish.
Sorry to correct you, but your post is very misinformed.
Regards
Jim
I had a niger trigger in my tank. He never bothered any corals, my shrimp population slowly disappeared while the trigger was in the tank. So I think he may have got to them. Mostly I had to get rid of it due to the fish being too aggressive with other fish. Over time most of my other fish spent most of their time hiding. So out he went.
Niger Triggers are borderline reef safe (they may eat crustaceans and sponges). Pink Tail and Blue Throat triggers would be a safer bet. Two triggers that have not been mentioned are the Sargassum and Crosshatch. Both would be excellent choices for the reef as far as triggers go.
If one look at trigger fishes, the one with upturn mouth like Niger, Pink tail, Blue throat, Sargassum and Crosshatch are generally reef safe in the sense that they feed from the water column instead of pick on corals and other animals on the rock structure. Niger is one of the largest triggers (I think up to 18 inches). Any of these triggers when get to about 6-8 inches will go after 1-2 inches fish with gusto. I contemplated putting a trigger in my tank for a long time until I see a Houston LFS feeding feeder fish to Triggers for sale tank. Seeing that cured my desire in a hurry.
Well Jim it seems that your opinion is the minority. But let me ask you a few questions just in case.
You said
"and usually only pose a threat to small crustaceans"
What crustaceans do you keep are not small?
"Fish are safe unless they are VERY small"
How small is very small to a fish that gets to be 12"?
And on one last note, I set up a predator tank for a buddy of mine and it holds a niger trigger, a snowflake eel, and 2 large damsels. He has to drop 3 large silversides in the tank before the eel can even get near one. The niger trigger devours the silversides instantaneously. And this is a 5-6" medium sized fish not a large one.
So now I apologize for correcting you like so many others already have.
You said
"and usually only pose a threat to small crustaceans"
What crustaceans do you keep are not small?
"Fish are safe unless they are VERY small"
How small is very small to a fish that gets to be 12"?
And on one last note, I set up a predator tank for a buddy of mine and it holds a niger trigger, a snowflake eel, and 2 large damsels. He has to drop 3 large silversides in the tank before the eel can even get near one. The niger trigger devours the silversides instantaneously. And this is a 5-6" medium sized fish not a large one.
So now I apologize for correcting you like so many others already have.
Ummm...sorry facts are facts, and you have to be correct in order to correct somene. See how that works? :roll: As I stated, this isn't a matter of opinion, and if it were, mine isn't in the minority! I think you need to reread this thread.
Clownfish will devour silversides too, as will many captive fish, that doesn't mean they will chase down and devour a tankmate.
Congrats on setting up a single fish tank for a buddy with a trigger that eats frozen silversides. I guess that negates all the common, collective knowledge on this fish. :lol: :lol: I've been keeping these guys for over 20 years. :lol: There are scores of people who keep this fish in reefs without problems with inverts or with it eating fish.
Crustaceans that are not small? Large cleaners, hermits, pistol shrimp, etc.
12" is neither here nor there. It's the dentition and mandible structure and swallowing capacity that dictates what a fish ( or any organism) can eat. Empereor angels get to be 15", that doesn't mean they go around eating other fish and shrimp.
Very small to a niger trigger is just what it sounds like. Anything the size of a medium royal gramma or bigger is safe. We're talking live fish here now, not fish food, frozen silversizes, etc. :roll: The niger trigger lacks the adaptations to chase down and devour a reasonably sized live fish unless he kills it first.
I'm sure it's happened, nothing is all the time as I always say.
Chris, I would think twice about a niger, just because of the size these fish attain. They tend to overwhelm reef tanks under 200 gallons or so. Fish only tanks are a different story.
Regards
Jim
Clownfish will devour silversides too, as will many captive fish, that doesn't mean they will chase down and devour a tankmate.
Congrats on setting up a single fish tank for a buddy with a trigger that eats frozen silversides. I guess that negates all the common, collective knowledge on this fish. :lol: :lol: I've been keeping these guys for over 20 years. :lol: There are scores of people who keep this fish in reefs without problems with inverts or with it eating fish.
Crustaceans that are not small? Large cleaners, hermits, pistol shrimp, etc.
12" is neither here nor there. It's the dentition and mandible structure and swallowing capacity that dictates what a fish ( or any organism) can eat. Empereor angels get to be 15", that doesn't mean they go around eating other fish and shrimp.
Very small to a niger trigger is just what it sounds like. Anything the size of a medium royal gramma or bigger is safe. We're talking live fish here now, not fish food, frozen silversizes, etc. :roll: The niger trigger lacks the adaptations to chase down and devour a reasonably sized live fish unless he kills it first.
I'm sure it's happened, nothing is all the time as I always say.
Chris, I would think twice about a niger, just because of the size these fish attain. They tend to overwhelm reef tanks under 200 gallons or so. Fish only tanks are a different story.
Regards
Jim
Now ya see that Jim, this is why I have stayed off the boards for who knows how long, I can not remember. First off I used to manage a very successful LFS. Now, hence my name the "TheZooFarmer" I propogate many species of corals for wholesale and am about to put up a website for sales to the public.
I will leave it at that becasue you are clueless. Heck you can not even afford liverock according to one of your posts.
"Too F%*&ing much! Like $6.99 to $7.99lb! I robbed rock out of my other two reefs to build this last one.
Jim "
If you like I can wholesale you some rock. What kind of rock would you like? Fiji, Marshall, Tonga is on special from the wholesalers.
How about posting a picture of one of your 20 year old niger triggers?
I will leave it at that becasue you are clueless. Heck you can not even afford liverock according to one of your posts.
"Too F%*&ing much! Like $6.99 to $7.99lb! I robbed rock out of my other two reefs to build this last one.
Jim "
If you like I can wholesale you some rock. What kind of rock would you like? Fiji, Marshall, Tonga is on special from the wholesalers.
How about posting a picture of one of your 20 year old niger triggers?
Dude, if you go around spewing misinformation, and then people who know their "you know what" from a hole in the ground constantly have to correct you, I'll bet you got tire of the boards real fast.
I have no clue what you are talking about concerning live rock, you have me confused with someone else. Oh...ok, I remember now. All I stated was that prices are a bit much, my tanks however are full if the stuff. The fact that you have to go and find some obscure thread that has nothing to do with this subject, and remark about what I can afford and can't afford, just reflects how much you are reaching at this point. You are confused. Just like you're confused about trigger dietary habits apparently.
"First off I used to manage a very successful LFS. Now, hence my name the "TheZooFarmer"
Managing an LFS doesn't add to your credibility, nor does it negate woefully incorrect information spewing form your keyboard. Frankly, I wouldn't go around using that one.
You can call yourself the enima farmer for all I care, O. niger is still a zooplanktivore.
I don't have a 20 year old niger, I have that many years experience keeping this fish over the years both in my tanks others that I manage.
Good day.
Jim
I have no clue what you are talking about concerning live rock, you have me confused with someone else. Oh...ok, I remember now. All I stated was that prices are a bit much, my tanks however are full if the stuff. The fact that you have to go and find some obscure thread that has nothing to do with this subject, and remark about what I can afford and can't afford, just reflects how much you are reaching at this point. You are confused. Just like you're confused about trigger dietary habits apparently.
"First off I used to manage a very successful LFS. Now, hence my name the "TheZooFarmer"
Managing an LFS doesn't add to your credibility, nor does it negate woefully incorrect information spewing form your keyboard. Frankly, I wouldn't go around using that one.
You can call yourself the enima farmer for all I care, O. niger is still a zooplanktivore.
I don't have a 20 year old niger, I have that many years experience keeping this fish over the years both in my tanks others that I manage.
Good day.
Jim
I just have to add my two cents worth. I have a large salt tank with a Niger and Picasso trigger. They are "hole mates". One reason I don't think you may like them in your reef tank is that they are never satisfied with the way the sand looks. All my substrate has been moved completely fom one side of the tank to the other twice in a year by these fishes. This would not be good for your dilicate things living in the sand, as in the process the triggers are filtering them out for a snack.
The picasso will pcik stuff off the rocks. They have nice teeth for that. I haven't seen the Niger chase down and kill anything, but won't hesitate to eat frozen or fresh seafood of any kind. Live feeders are chased and killed by the Picasso, and the Niger follows him around scooping up scraps.
I might also add that in this process, the Niger changes color. His sides become much paler while he is "hunting" with the other fish. From the excitement I suppose. The NIger is also the only fish I have that will actually bite ME. The others will eat from my fingers, the Niger would rather bite them. He seems to also really relish a food I make out of green peas, scallops, eggs, spinach, and gelatin. All my fish eat this, but the Niger prefers it over plain raw food (scallops, shrimop, silversides, etc.) si I think they may nibble on your algae in a reef tank.
The picasso will pcik stuff off the rocks. They have nice teeth for that. I haven't seen the Niger chase down and kill anything, but won't hesitate to eat frozen or fresh seafood of any kind. Live feeders are chased and killed by the Picasso, and the Niger follows him around scooping up scraps.
I might also add that in this process, the Niger changes color. His sides become much paler while he is "hunting" with the other fish. From the excitement I suppose. The NIger is also the only fish I have that will actually bite ME. The others will eat from my fingers, the Niger would rather bite them. He seems to also really relish a food I make out of green peas, scallops, eggs, spinach, and gelatin. All my fish eat this, but the Niger prefers it over plain raw food (scallops, shrimop, silversides, etc.) si I think they may nibble on your algae in a reef tank.
8O Wow... what a shame, I guess that I have been a member here for about two years. The reason I have virtually no post is right here ! A guy ask for some opinions and experiences and gets responses like these. I always figured that saying nothing left you with much more dignity and self respect than than the mentality here. Does this stuff get monitored at all ? Why don't these things get stopped ? This is the first post I have read in over a year here, and once again, the last. It will be easy for some of you to say, "good riddens" but you may want to think about promoting this site instead of maintaining the reputation it has now. People want to learn, and even if you don't agree, there may be a more civil way to get your point across. If these kind of personal attacks leave you feeling good, than you may be on the wrong kind of board, there are many self help boards out there, think about joining one.
ZooFarmer, I am quoting some information I've found from WetWebMedia, the site run by Bob Fenner, with contributions from Anthony Calfo, Steven Pro, Rob Toonen, myself, and many, many others. While some opinions and experiences differ, we do end up with some generalizations, which, on the subject of Niger, blue-throat, and pinktail triggers, generally jive.
Jim and I are not alone in our assessment of Nigers and triggers of this same genus. Certainly you will agree that all represented here and on Bob's site are fairly knowledgeable, though we can all agree that there will be anomalies to the generalities. It is based upon my own experience, as well as that gleaned from others that I made my statements. I do try to qualify my statements as best I can, but there are times when I fail to do so sufficiently.
So, I'm hoping that this link (searching WWM is a simple affair) will help assuage some doubts. I will add that, while others, such as Scott Fellman, have found Nigers to be rather aggressive, my own experience has been that, for the most part, they tend to be among the biggest of wimps. I think we can all agree that Chris might find something better suited to a reef system of 130gals, though, yes (mainly due to ultimate adult size)? The first link I'm providing is specific to Odonus, the second link will show the same query answered by two different people, the second being Mr. Calfo.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishe ... s/faqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/trigselfaq2.htm
My purpose in this is to engender Bob's main goal--the dissemination of good information that leads to success in fishkeeping (all, not particularly reef), not to garner more ill will. This is the purpose of this site as well, and I'm hoping that correction of and adding to information won't lead to the hard feelings that seem to be resultant when there is a disagreement such as this.
Jim and I are not alone in our assessment of Nigers and triggers of this same genus. Certainly you will agree that all represented here and on Bob's site are fairly knowledgeable, though we can all agree that there will be anomalies to the generalities. It is based upon my own experience, as well as that gleaned from others that I made my statements. I do try to qualify my statements as best I can, but there are times when I fail to do so sufficiently.
So, I'm hoping that this link (searching WWM is a simple affair) will help assuage some doubts. I will add that, while others, such as Scott Fellman, have found Nigers to be rather aggressive, my own experience has been that, for the most part, they tend to be among the biggest of wimps. I think we can all agree that Chris might find something better suited to a reef system of 130gals, though, yes (mainly due to ultimate adult size)? The first link I'm providing is specific to Odonus, the second link will show the same query answered by two different people, the second being Mr. Calfo.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishe ... s/faqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/trigselfaq2.htm
WetWebMediaTriggerFAQ's":2udafosi said:The Eternal Trigger-Reef Question (Jason's response)
Hello again:
<<Hello to you, JasonC here...>>
While I was sold initially on the idea of a reef tank, after a few months I'm losing interest in a focus on invertebrates. I've also loved triggers since I was a young fry. <<Understandable - very amusing fish.>>
Currently I have a 65 gallon semi-reef with:
Maroon Clown
Royal Dottyback
Yellowtail Damselfish
Female Dotted Fairy Wrasse (Cirrhilabrus punctatus)
Gorgeous Prawn Goby (Amblyeleotris wheeleri)
Lawnmower Blenny
Sally Lightfoot crab
A few Emerald crabs
Cleaner Shrimp
hermits/snails as cleanup
A few species of mushroom coral polyps
a possible anemone for the clown
With some modification or removal of species, is a trigger like the Niger or Pink-tailed completely incompatible with inverts, especially the coral and shrimp? <<The Niger trigger is probably your only shot - the pink tail should be lumped in with all the other types as far as reef-safeness goes... [is that even a word?]>> Am I crazy for considering this? <<Not entirely.>> Are triggers, no matter what the species, only safe for fish-only systems? <<As a group, probably so. The Niger trigger is slightly unique in that it is a planktivore - it finds its food in the water column. The other triggers are much more opportune and will go to the trouble of flipping things over to find their food as well as eat just about anything that presents itself.>>
Thank you again. I can't tell you how much I appreciate being able to consult experts with my questions. <<Absolutely my pleasure.>>
-Ian Berger
<<Cheers, J -->>
The Eternal Trigger-Reef Question (Anthony's response)
Hello again:
<"Hello again...Hello. Just called... to say... Hello." Ok... like I'm the ONLY one singing that Neil Diamond tune now?!?>
While I was sold initially on the idea of a reef tank, after a few months I'm losing interest in a focus on invertebrates.
<Complete blasphemy... you need a lobotomy :p>
I've also loved triggers since I was a young fry.
<OK... we can agree on this <G>>
Currently I have a 65 gallon semi-reef with:
Maroon Clown
Royal Dottyback
Yellowtail Damselfish
Female Dotted Fairy Wrasse (Cirrhilabrus punctatus)
Gorgeous Prawn Goby (Amblyeleotris wheeleri)
Lawnmower Blenny
Sally Lightfoot crab
A few Emerald crabs
Cleaner Shrimp
hermits/snails as cleanup
A few species of mushroom coral polyps
a possible anemone for the clown
<please do the reefs and the industry a favor and do not get an anemone for a mixed species tank. If you must have one, please give it a dedicated system and chose your species wisely after much research... preferably a bulb tip anemone (BTA) or a brown malu/sebae. Else you are likely to add to the statistic of high anemone mortality within 1 year of import>
With some modification or removal of species, is a trigger like the Niger or Pink-tailed completely incompatible with inverts, especially the coral and shrimp?
<not entirely incompatible... this genus and some other related (rare) species are quite invert safe with their planktivirous feeding habits. Still... the larger shrimp are a bit unsafe and tempting even for these reef-safe (really cnidarian safe) creatures>
Am I crazy for considering this?
<that is an entirely different subject upon which I am not qualified to speak... although I have my suspicions>
Are triggers, no matter what the species, only safe for fish-only systems?
<nope>
Thank you again. I can't tell you how much I appreciate being able to consult experts with my questions.
<our pleasure>
-Ian Berger
<best regards, Anthony>
My purpose in this is to engender Bob's main goal--the dissemination of good information that leads to success in fishkeeping (all, not particularly reef), not to garner more ill will. This is the purpose of this site as well, and I'm hoping that correction of and adding to information won't lead to the hard feelings that seem to be resultant when there is a disagreement such as this.
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