How do you make a puffer fish puff?

[Anonymous]

Well, Erik, let's take on first the issue of captive-raised. Captive-raised where, exactly? Most would assume (and rightly so) in the west--U.S., Canada, Europe. Now, just how many poor fishermen are going to see any benefit from that?

Now, let's take the issue of cyanide. An important one at that. However, am I to understand that you are extrapolating that most of our fish are gathered via cyanide, and that cyanide is what kills most of these animals before they get to our tanks? If so, I would like to point out that this assumption is mistaken. I would wager that just as many, if not more, animals are killed both before and after they get "stateside" from poor handling and shipping stress.

Now, as to your question about teaching others good husbandry, and asking/researching before you purchase, do you have any idea how much time I, personally, spend DAILY answering questions and doing my personal best to disseminate good information through wetwebmedia? HOURS. Many, many hours (working on it as I type this--yes, the ubiquitous female multitasker). When I was employed in a retail shop I practiced what I preach(ed), and often would outright refuse to sell an animal to someone if I felt it was beyond their capabilities. How many others here can speak to this?

My argument is this, and it's quite simple: if you are SO incensed about a puffer getting a gentle pinch, then you should direct that energy to where it's really useful. For, in the grand scheme of things, in the grand scheme of this hobby, pinching a puffer (gently or NOT, for that matter) is nothing. It makes those who are getting so worked up about it appear ridiculous to those of us who are aware of the greater picture, the grander scale.

For reiteration's sake (and because it seems to be being skimmed over O! so conveniently), I want to point out again that I am not saying everyone should go and get a puffer and pinch it. I am not saying that people should not take their husbandry practices very seriously (in case it couldn't be extrapolated from what I've posted earlier as well as what's in this post). I am saying that they should put things into perspective.

ReefMonkey, I wasn't saying that you, specifically, were "buying first and asking later", I was saying that this ubiquitous practice is exceedingly common, and kills and TORTURES far more animals than anything else being discussed or debated here. So far, no one else really wants to address it, but I do appreciate your joke. You will find that, along with the shrimp (in shell), squid, clam, and octopus your puffy might like, expect it to want a sample of your crunchy FINGER.

 

[Anonymous]

Righty, read what I said. I said it was not a husbandry practice I admire. I said nothing about collection. Collection is a necessary evil for the hobby to exist. Purposely stressing collected animals is not. Surely you can understand the difference.

I know you said nothing about collection, that is why I asked about it. :wink:

Sure I understand the difference. It is acceptable that animals get stressed and killed on the way to our living rooms, but once they get there we should try not to stress and kill them.

The only reason I can come up with for perpetuating the 'necessary evil' of collection (at least the only reason that doesn't seem like a rationalization) is that we really want to have these animals in our living rooms. To me, it does not seem that much of a stretch to accept occasional puffer pinching on the same grounds - I really want to see the puffer puff.

What I don't get is why some people demonize others over the idea of pinching a puffer once and awhile, but rationalize the killing and stressing of dozens of animals (or more) to get the one in their tank as a necessary evil.

:mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

I just bought a spiny box puffer, is there anyway to make him puff up?
I tried to chase him in the tank but it didn't work...Thanks

Just take him out and blow into his mouth..he will puff up and then you better call 911.

 

[Anonymous]

I will roll the dice and attempt to paraphrase you... You are basically saying: how can you decry making a puffer puff knowing about the stress of collection and the mortalities involved in the hobby.

Almost. Claiming moral high ground by saying we shouldn't stress animals as support for not puffer pinching seems odd when the whole hobby is based on stressing animals.

Saying we should do all we can to minimize stress on the animals in our care is fine (and we can and have discussed and disagreed on the fine points of what stress is and how much of it each of us find acceptable), but I don't think any of us can claim moral high ground in regards to not stressing animals if we have any wild caught animals in our care.

I'm positive you know things aren't that simple. As I've already mentioned on this thread. If the hobby stopped today what would happen? How are the poor fishermen/collectors in Phillipines/Indonesia going to live? By taking less per fish than they were making from the hobby and selling them/eating them for food or, even worse, curios.

However, we wouldn't be causing those problems, and we then could take the moral high ground and say 'I'm not contributing to the stress of animals, neither should you'.

Instead of ridiculing people for being hypocritical,

I don't think I have ridiculed anyone in this thread. I realize that some find the pointing out of inconsistincies and rationalizations to be difficult, but if we are to ever actually make a difference in this hobby, we can't take the moral high ground on one hand, while supporting what we claim to dispise with the other.

why doesn't the RDOTF (for those of you to whom the comment applies) educate people about purchasing captive-raised tank bred animals, net-caught fish, purchasing ethically in regards to survivability, knowing your supplier, proper husbandry, etc... Hopefully, making the reef a re-newable resource for both the hobby and the people of PI.

I know that I, and I believe all of the RDOTF, often do just what you are suggesting. :mrgreen:

 

[Expos Forever]

SM

I was referring in this case to overseas aquaculture programs. You are right in stating that US based aquaculture facilities don't do much specifically for the people of PI (except for raising awareness). IMO the goal of the hobby should be to aquaculture what we can and responsably collect the rest. If the collection/handling issues get resolved most believe that the reefs in PI are sustainable despite the damage already done.

I agree that shipping/poor handling appears to be as big a problem as cyanide. Fish sold as food in Asia are often sold live so these issues also affect this practice. Again, IMO, educating the hobbiest is key here. Let's let people know about businesses like seacrop. www.seacrop.com

To be honest, you are one of the people I had in mind when I added my (to whom the comment applies...). I am well aware of all the typing you do and your promotion of good husbandry practices. Nor did I say you, or anyone, is encouraging people to make their puffers puff.

Can we step away from the "hobby as a whole" issue and just admit that catching, pinching a fish for no purpose except curiosity (ex dentistry, treatment, etc...) is just generally not a good idea. I'm sure you are well aware that the "glass torture box" argument is brought up in regards to all kinds of issues: minimum tank size(tangs), un-suitable species, etc... I still believe there is a line to draw at some point.

I have chosen to work from within the hobby because I haven't yet lost all hope. I'm positve that this thread has made someone think much harder about what is living in their tanks. Isn't that a good thing?

 

[Len]

I wholeheartedly believe we're all interested in practicing and preaching good animal husbandry. It's been stated numerous times by numerous individuals that inciting a pufferfish to puff is not recommended; Some have argued this practice does little harm; No evidence has been provided to unequivocally validate or falsify this argument, with John's extensive personal experience being the closest thing to concrete support of assertions made.

The crux of this discussion is about ethics, and many critical ideas have been presented that deserves our attention. We all agree (or it is my hope at least) that the best possible care should be given to the animals we consciously choose to care for. But what about the selfish act of collecting wild organisms for our personal amusement? This is a most worthy discussion topic IMHO. Feel free to continue to discuss it here, or perhaps start a new thread dedicated to this topic.

Our community is most certainly interested in perpetuating ethical treatment of animals throughout their chain of custody. I can not imagine any Reefs.org member who would not heartily endorse education (Reefs.org has the largest reefkeeping library online, in addition to MACO and AAOLM, etc.), captive bred fish (some RDOTF are involved in commercial breeding), and ethical treatment from collection to captivity (The Industry Forum was formed for this purpose). I am proud of our community being progressive thinkers and I encourage more contentious, insightful discussion.

As a standard disclaimer, this is strictly Len talking, not Reefs.org or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Expos Forever]

Before the entire RDOTF runs me up a flag-pole :wink: ... Many of you have helped me in the past. What I meant by that comment, was I find it peculiar that many of you have taken the stance you in have in this thread instead of "educating people about purchasing captive-raised tank bred animals, net-caught fish, purchasing ethically in regards to survivability, knowing your supplier, proper husbandry, etc... Hopefully, making the reef a re-newable resource for both the hobby and the people of PI. "

 

[Len]

What I meant by that comment, was I find it peculiar that many of you have taken the stance you in have in this thread instead of "educating people about purchasing captive-raised tank bred animals, net-caught fish, purchasing ethically in regards to survivability, knowing your supplier, proper husbandry, etc... Hopefully, making the reef a re-newable resource for both the hobby and the people of PI. "

.... probably because this specific thread wasn't about those topics (of which we're all in favor of).

 

[John_Brandt]

This may, or may not, be the place for it...but I would like to nominate Erik L (Save_The_Expos) to be a Reefs.org Task Force Member.

I think he is a good candidate.

 

[Expos Forever]

Len wrote

Save_the_Expos wrote:
What I meant by that comment, was I find it peculiar that many of you have taken the stance you in have in this thread instead of "educating people about purchasing captive-raised tank bred animals, net-caught fish, purchasing ethically in regards to survivability, knowing your supplier, proper husbandry, etc... Hopefully, making the reef a re-newable resource for both the hobby and the people of PI. "


.... probably because this specific thread wasn't about those topics (of which we're all in favor of).

Nor was it about the ethics of keeping fish at all. :wink: I believe it was brought up in response to the fact it was hypocritical to decry puffer-pinching while being a hobbiest.

 

[John_Brandt]

I puff

Therefore I am.

 

[Anonymous]

Righty, read what I said. I said it was not a husbandry practice I admire. I said nothing about collection. Collection is a necessary evil for the hobby to exist. Purposely stressing collected animals is not. Surely you can understand the difference.

Again, Briand...the same "necessary evil rational" was inherent in "our peculiar institution a/k/a/ slavery" and was used as an excuse for its existance...in other words the slavery analogy put forth by Righty is still on point.

You are still not grasping the idea myself (and others) are putting forth that it is hypocritical not to admit that as a hobby we put our own interests over those of the animals we keep.

 

[Anonymous]

What I don't get is why some people demonize others over the idea of pinching a puffer once and awhile, but rationalize the killing and stressing of dozens of animals (or more) to get the one in their tank as a necessary evil.

Since you are using my words in this statement, I assume you are referring to me. First of all, please point out where I "demonized" others. After all, I am sure you would never resort to "generalities and inconsistencies".

Secondly, calling something an evil isn't exactly rationalizing it.

Third, you still seem incapable of distinguishing the difference between collection and husbandry. Instead of continuing to deflect the debate, why not support your position on its own merits, ie. purposely stressing captive animals for our own amusement is an acceptable practice.

 

[Anonymous]

Lawdawg, I have problem "grasping" what you are saying. My difficulty is getting you to understand it has nothing to do with the debate at hand. It is just a weak attempt to rationalize poor behaviour, as many have already pointed out. It saddens me to see so many influential members of this board take such a cavalier attitude towards intentionally inducing stress. Gee, I thought Marine Fish Keeping 101 preached against stressing our animals. I suppose you have decided those rules are no longer valid.

 

[Len]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that purposely stressing captive fish is an acceptable practice. The argument being made by some (and not just RDOTF) is that it's no greater evil to stimulate a natural response from a puffervia some stress (magnitude is open for debate) then it is to forcibly remove the specimen from the ocean for our amusement.

 

[Anonymous]

Len, how many times is a puffer collected? I assume once. One collection, one episode of stress. Some fish can't handle this stress and die. A terrible truth, and I am sure it has caused many reef keepers to question their participation in the hobby.

The fish that are strong enough to survive the stress end up in our aquariums, where hopefuly we can minimize their exposure to stress and maximize their health. To purposely continue to stress the animal does not appear to me to be sound practice if our goal is to keep the animal alive. I see no hypocricy to this position, and I can only wish that someone would actually explain to me the positive aspect of stressing fish once they are in our home aquaria.

Or, more simply, how can anyone believe chasing a fish around a tank for the purpose of capturing it and pinching it ("gently", if you prefer) is a reasonable pursuit for those who wish to minimize stress?

Brian

 

[Len]

I also don't see hypocrisy in wanting to provide the best possible care for a fish once it's in captivity. The hypocrisy (a word which you introduced into this discussion which I personally wouldn't have) being discussed is with those who champion ethical treatment of fish when the very act of collecting and keeping these fish is arguably unethical. This includes me (and nearly everyone who's participated).

Again, no one is arguing that stressing fish for pleasure is acceptable or possesses any benefit. I've yet to see one recommendation for this practice, but have seen numerous recommendations against it. What is still open to debate is just how stressful it is for a puffer to puff even though no one has actually recommended doing so.

(man, I can't spell)

 

[dizzy]

Len, how many times is a puffer collected? I assume once. One collection, one episode of stress. Some fish can't handle this stress and die. Brian

Brian,
Actually the puffer would be stressed at every link in the coc. I don't know how many puffers I have accidentally made puff up when I was catching them or even sometimes when I was letting them out. They're not the wimpy fish some of you would make them out to be. A healthy well adapted puffer can easily handle inflating himself or herself once in awhile. How stressful do you think it is when a shark sinks its teeth into one?

 

[John_Brandt]

The Puffer Pincher speaks again.....

AFAIK, I'm the only puffer pincher here, and I'm the one that mentioned the procedure. I need to go into more detail on how it's done. But remember not to do it. I don't chase the puffer around at all, that is too stressful.

It's pretty easy to sneak your hand up behind a puffer unless they are new and not used to your presence. Acclimated puffers really have a one-track mind...they want food. These puffers aren't much afraid of your presence nor are they afraid of your hand. In fact, they will often swim right up to you and your hand. Watch out for the bite! I just slip my hand back near the rear towards the belly (where it's easier to get a little bit of skin) and give them a gentle pinch. I have to be prepared for them to wheel around and try to bite, but mostly they don't do this. Within seconds they will begin to puff. If they don't seem to get the idea, and just start to struggle I let go, because then there is just too much stress involved.

They will generally begin to deflate as soon as you let go, or soon after they fully inflate. The whole operation takes about 20 seconds from start to finish (pinch-to-inflate-to-deflate). The puffer immediately goes back to paying lots of interest in you, anticipating being fed. It's hard to justify the whole thing causing a lot of stress because the puffer acts like it never happened. They never split, they never get sick, they never die and they never seem to remember it past about 5 seconds. The really friendly ones will swim right back to your hand immediately after you've pinched them.

Because I know these things as first-hand facts I laugh my way through most of this thread. Can't you tell? But I certainly understand the anti-puffer-pincher's position...and again I don't recommend that anybody do it.

 

[Anonymous]

The hypocrisy (a word which you introduced into this discussion which I personally wouldn't have)

Perhaps you should read the thread and save the condescending tone. I didn't "introduce" the word into the discussion. I only used the term to refute the accusations of hypocricy previously made by others. Actually, I am still trying to determine why so many in this thread believe there is hypocricy in the position that you shouldn't purposely stress animals in our care.

I suppose I shall continue to wait.

Brian