How do you make a puffer fish puff?

[Len]

My apologies if I came off condescending to you. It was not intended, and my statement was merely to convey that I disagreed with your word choice. Written ideas are easily miscontrued, and I will admit some others' posts in this thread come off as righteous, arrogant, and condescending. It was unlikely their intent as it wasn't mine, so I never made a point to bring it up.

I've already stated why there is no hypocricy in the position that you shouldn't purposely stress animals in our care. Likewise, I've already stated why the concept of ethical reefkeeping is arguably an oxymoron (my word of choice).

 

[Len]

Strange. the DB is indexing one post back.

 

[Expos Forever]

For the record:

esmithiii wrote

No one in this hobby has the right to take any moral high ground. We all contribute in some way to the destruction and/or pollution of the reefs, death of fish, etc. Giving a guy a hard time about pinching his puffer (did I really just say "pinching his puffer"? that sounds bad, doesn't it?) seems a bit . hypocritical to me.

If nobody recommends pinching puffers (I actually wrote puffing pinchers but caught it) what's all the discussion about? Then we can all agree that pinching a puffer is not as horrible as hundreds dying on tarmacs and cargo facilities. Then we can say: what can we do about it? As I've stated previously, the solution wil not come easy.

John, you're about as enigmatic as they come.

Righty, although my previous post seemed to be addressed solely to you that is more a result of poor structure than intent. At least I almost correctly paraphrased you, how many people can say that?:wink:

 

[Len]

I stand corrected and apologize for attributing that word choice to you Brian. Regardless of who posted it first, it's still a word that I wouldn't have chosen. But then again, it's an issue of semantics and as semantic disagreements usually go, isn't really worthwhile (my bad for even bringing it up).

 

[Anonymous]

What I don't get is why some people demonize others over the idea of pinching a puffer once and awhile, but rationalize the killing and stressing of dozens of animals (or more) to get the one in their tank as a necessary evil.

Since you are using my words in this statement, I assume you are referring to me. First of all, please point out where I "demonized" others. After all, I am sure you would never resort to "generalities and inconsistencies".

Bad assumption. If I had meant you, I would have said 'Briand' instead of 'some people.

Secondly, calling something an evil isn't exactly rationalizing it.

But calling it a necessary evil is.

Third, you still seem incapable of distinguishing the difference between collection and husbandry. Instead of continuing to deflect the debate, why not support your position on its own merits, ie. purposely stressing captive animals for our own amusement is an acceptable practice.

I think I have actually been quite clear that collection and husbandry are two different, but connected, things. Of late, I have been asking questions about collection, not husbandry. I am still interested in your answers to the questions I posed.

Part of the problem may be that you and I disagree on what 'stressing' means, or at least what degree of 'stressing' matters.

Many would claim the very act of keeping animals in a glass box is stressing the animal. Do you feel differently? Or is that 'necessary' stress?

Is cutting up a coral to propagate it somehow not purposely stressing captive animals for our own amusement?

:mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

My difficulty is getting you to understand it has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

It may be that we simply disagree on this point.

 

[Anonymous]

I see no hypocricy to this position, and I can only wish that someone would actually explain to me the positive aspect of stressing fish once they are in our home aquaria

With the understood notion that we disagree on what 'stressing' is, the positive aspect of making a puffer puff in the aquarium is enjoying the incredible oddness and beauty of nature, educating others about the ocean realm, and discovering greater truths & correcting misconceptions about the husbandry of the animals in our care. The exact same reasons most of us give for having a reef tank in the first place.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, Erik, I believe we are at a good general agreement, and I hope you know how much I appreciate the fact that you have actually directly addressed the issues I presented. "Balanced" is the word that is coming to mind when I reread your post, and that is exactly what I'm shooting for. The only issue still not addressed within is that of my personal pet peeve, but I'm satisfied to know (and yes, I'm with you, I am positive that at least one person has been given much to consider outside of puffer pinching) that, ridiculous as this whole exchange may appear to some, it has actually served very good purpose. Completely unintended by the cheeky monkey who started it, but still.. I would only like to add that the issues mentioned go beyond the Philippines, and would be applicable to many circumtropical poor countries from which we acquire ornamentals.

Mitch's and John's experiences largely reflect my own, with the exception that, in attempting to bag puffers I found it most annoying when some individuals would puff their way out of bags (porkys). However, John's description is fitting of EVERY puffer I have encountered outside of shipping situations. They are almost the dogs of the sea (very much like my own dog, who goes completely nuts whenever she sees anything resembling a dinner plate), and I will reiterate that I have found them to be hardy and resilient. I have also found them to be quite interested in interacting with me, although it is often that they have wanted a "taste" (exploring with their mouths is how I've always chalked it up) of whatever the food machine may have to offer more than anything else. I have handled some decidedly tame animals who truly enjoyed their scritches and such (one friend had one that seemed to enjoy making a game of "dunk me"--you would give him a push down, he would pop up and spit at you, swim in a circle, and come around for more), though none has been as clearly docile and interactive as the zebra moray I helped care for in a very large shop display tank (but that's another story entirely).

 

[Anonymous]

/quote]

If nobody recommends pinching puffers (I actually wrote puffing pinchers but caught it) what's all the discussion about?

Agreeing to let someone pinch their puffer if they want too. :wink:

Then we can all agree that pinching a puffer is not as horrible as hundreds dying on tarmacs and cargo facilities. Then we can say: what can we do about it? As I've stated previously, the solution wil not come easy.

Right on brother!

At least I almost correctly paraphrased you, how many people can say that?:wink:

:mrgreen:

 

[Len]

I think Righty's probably arguing something different then me. I'm not a proponent of letting people pinch puffers if they feel like it; it's a practice I will discourage. But at the same time, I don't understand what all the indignation is about .... a lot of which is based on less-then-accurate anthromorphic "feelings" about what fish feel. It's interesting to note some folks continue to hold as much esteem for unfounded personal conjecture as they do for contrary assessments from those with the most experience with puffers.

 

[clarionreef]

Pufferphiles,
Having collected a thousand or two porcupine puffers in the wild and handled many more in the wharehouse, we have one cardinal rule...never let em swallow air. Thats much, much more important than any other consideration...especially gentle pinching.
Since passing predators scare them, stress them and set them off a 'huffin and puffin,' its no big deal for them to do what they have evolved to do.
Its good to see that people care but odd to see that this puffer thread has garnered 3,000 posts in such a short time. Thats equal to all the threads on the Industry behind the hobby for the last week and a half!
Steve @ Cortez Marine

 

[brandon4291]

John, what you are describing sure sounds like base-line conditioning to me. The kind we find in millions (or thousands of years, whatever evolutional timeline one observes) of years of natural selection and also the kind that is not a thought-based process, but a stimulatory one. If a puffer can swell 10x its normal size, I say skin elasticity is sufficient enough to handle a 1/4 inch light tug without much 'pain'. IMO the reaction is akin to us blinking at a non-contact fist thrust to the face vs a wince from actually being punched. The elicited reaction can be a conditional response, not necessarily associated with pain or a true stress reaction...

Your observations states that the puffer will swell at the slightest tug and then come right back for more food. Though we know a fish caught on a hook will turn right back around and bite the same hook 15 minutes later, they dont always 'remember' for very long, there is an observable period of shyness in which they would retreat and hide if they are truly threatened. The fact that your puffer de-puffs and then still feeds from the hand tells me they are not harmed, neuronally speaking. Just MO. I dont advocate puffing them but Id put $50 on the table that says it doesnt hurt.

There is no point to my post other than to remark on everyones ideas and observations. I like to try and separate science and emotion in an attempt to purify the science. I can see how the bouyancy of the puffer is messed up for a short time, and on that note its not wise to puff them unnecessarily especially of you have a strong-current/overflow system. All other parameters accounted for, a one-time puff is not that bad?

 

[Anonymous]

Len, Righty, et al

I do not attach any human emotions to fish. This discussion is not one that leaves me red faced and furiously wanting to protect schools of puffer fish. I am not ready to man picket lines protesting puffer-pinching. My concern, and please do not attribute others emotions or responses to me simply because our position differs from yours, is that aquarists will be left with the impression that purposely stressing fish is an acceptable practice. I have never had a pufferfish, so if someone offers proof that a puffer "puffing" is absolutely unrelated to stress, I would say puff away. If, however, the pufferfish puffs because it feels stressed, I could not support the intential provoking of this act.

I apologize if my word choice or phrasing has misconstrued my position. I am not quite as capable in structuring my thoughts into written form as others, so you have to suffer along with me.

Brian

 

[brandon4291]

I see your point Brian and it seems valid to me. Everyone has a chance to put their thoughts into motion in this particular thread, and I think this will turn out to be a very informative work-up. All sides of the coin other than the standard two are included in these 11 pages (!) and I can guarantee any newcomer who wonders about puffer puffing will get an incredibly educated notion from reading everyone's POV.

Brandon M.

 

[dizzy]

Well I had to try it. The poor little 1.5" dogface was an easy victim. I guess I didn't pinch hard enough to get 10x. What's the trick to that?

 

[Anonymous]

Brian,

I am happy to suffer along with you! I would like to see this trend of talking things out civily, until everyone understands rach other. IMO, many flamewars and misuderstandings on the reef boards are due to people not taking the time to take the time to really hear what others are saying.

Although we may disagree on what 'stressing' a fish is, I think we can both agree that 'stressing' should be minimized.


Len,

How dare you disagree with me! No more smoke for you! :wink: :mrgreen:

I wouldn't recommend puffer pinching, and I would tell someone the I think its better they not do it, but at the same time, I aint gonna think less of someone for trying it. And if they do choose to do it, I hope they would do it Johns way, rather than some silly way. Hey, thats kinda like how I feel about drug use! Back to the Sump with me!

8)

 

[Len]

Len, Righty, et al
My concern, and please do not attribute others emotions or responses to me simply because our position differs from yours, is that aquarists will be left with the impression that purposely stressing fish is an acceptable practice.

Point taken, and for clarification's sake for people who may not have (or want to) read the last 11 pages, puffing a puffer is not recommended by members who have participated in this thread. It's not as unsafe or unethical a practice as some have made it out to be IMO, but better to err on the side of caution and forego personal amusement. Of course, this still leads back to the ethics of reefkeeping itself, but we can discuss that in another thread (perhaps a Discussion of the Week topic)

I have never had a pufferfish, so if someone offers proof that a puffer "puffing" is absolutely unrelated to stress, I would say puff away. If, however, the pufferfish puffs because it feels stressed, I could not support the intential provoking of this act.

By all accounts in this thread of those with extensive experiences handling puffers, it appears that puffing does not harm or stress a pufferfish. No offense, but I believe people had a knee-jerk indignant reaction to the idea of puffing a pufferfish (which led us to where we're presently at in this conversation). The stimulus required to solicit that behavior can be regarded as stress, but the magnitude of said stress is up in the air. As brandon's analogy goes, would you consider blinking your eyes reflexively as stress?

 

[saltyzoo]

Hmmm. I thought this thread was dead. For some reason I'm not getting notified anymore. After catching back up, I'm actually glad. This is a very dissapointing and depressing thread.

Well I had to try it. The poor little 1.5" dogface was an easy victim. I guess I didn't pinch hard enough to get 10x. What's the trick to that?

Even if this is a joke it's disgusting. :evil:

It's not as unsafe or unethical a practice as some have made it out to be IMO,

I don't think that you have shown any evidence that it is unsafe or unethical. I admit that you may be right, but there is absolutely no evidence that you are right.

but better to err on the side of caution and forego personal amusement.

I agree. That's been my point all along.

Len, any idea why my email notification isn't working?

 

[Anonymous]

but better to err on the side of caution and forego personal amusement.

I agree. That's been my point all along.

I don't think the 'personal amusement' argument is a good one, and I think it is being applied selectively.

The only reason we have reefs in our homes is for personal amusement. Keeping a reef stresses/kills animals. Shouldn't we err on the side of caution and get return our creatures to the wild?

Please don't take this as argumentative, I am really interested in your response.

 

[Len]

I have no idea why you lost your subscription, greg. This thread seems to have lost sync due to the volume of traffic. I will see if anything can be done about it. Try re-subscribing and see if that works.

I disagree that this thread is depressing and disappointing. I think the people who have been participating have come to an agreement and I'm not sure what disappoints or depresses you. I think good insight into the ethics of reefkeeping has been established and can be further discussed. The basic concept behind ethical reefkeeping is worthy of further dialogue.

You are right: no one has shown any conclusive evidence that puffing is or is not unduly stressful. However, I will confidently state that those in this thread with the most experience with puffers concur that puffing does not seem to cause harm. The contrary opinion that puffing is dangerous or painful, however, is based purely on anthropomorphic reasoning.