How do you make a puffer fish puff?

[esmithiii]

as far as we know, the puffing up may be enjoyable to the puffer.

Yeah, ok. I'm sure that's true.

SaltyZoo- why is it a forgone conclusion that it doesn't like it? What makes you think that it is so unpleasant for the fish? Were you a pufferfish in a previous life? Does your puffer talk to you? Do you have human-puffer telepathy? Does it scream out in pain? Seriously. How do you know? or at least why would you assume? Or does the rolling-eyes emoticon suffice for proof?

Ernie

 

[saltyzoo]

Lemme try some logic, and actually, the posts above were not using the strawman fallacy, they were examining the worst-case scenario. Big difference.

Logically, it is unlikely (although not impossible) that stretching the entire torso to 3x normal size is a pleasant experience. It is also illogical to assume that an animal would find a "last-ditch" defensive manuever to be pleasant. If it felt so great you wouldn't need to "induce" it because they'd be doing it all the time all by themselves.

Or, to look at it another way:

If I'm wrong and it isn't unpleasant or harmful in any way at all, then I'm missing out on all the "puffy fun".

If I'm right, then it really is torture.

I think I'll stick with missing out on the "puffy fun".

 

[esmithiii]

Logically, it is unlikely (although not impossible) that stretching the entire torso to 3x normal size is a pleasant experience. It is also illogical to assume that an animal would find a "last-ditch" defensive manuever to be pleasant. If it felt so great you wouldn't need to "induce" it because they'd be doing it all the time all by themselves.

Not to be crude, but most male animals have a part of their anatomy that they like to stretch to 3x the normal size and I am quite sure they find it pleasurable.

Also, according to most people who own puffers, they seem to do it occasionally on their own.

Ernie

 

[saltyzoo]

Since you chose to ignore it and be "crude" instead:

If I'm wrong and it isn't unpleasant or harmful in any way at all, then I'm missing out on all the "puffy fun".

If I'm right, then it really is torture.

 

[Anonymous]

"I'm not going to wax philosophical over this issue. Asking me to define "wrong" for you, is just too reminiscent of my freshman philosophy professor asking the class to define "truth". That discussion lasted all semester. "

You should have asked for your money back and taken a science/methods course with it.


A puffer's defensive mechanism is an example of something that is supposed to happen, in a certain circumstance. This animal is in its ideal situation in its natural habitat in the wild. Natural selection tells us this. If it weren't, it would be selected for natural extinction/decline in current conditions of its habitat. In its ideal situation, it does puff itself up in order to defend itself. If this were a defense mechanism (thats goal is to preserve the animal's life) that was faulty, the animal would decline, and yet it doesn't.

Sorry guys, the whole "no puffing to keep the ideal environment" is bunk and a figment of your anthropomorphizing heads.

 

[Anonymous]

Logically, it is unlikely (although not impossible) that stretching the entire torso to 3x normal size is a pleasant experience. It is also illogical to assume that an animal would find a "last-ditch" defensive manuever to be pleasant. If it felt so great you wouldn't need to "induce" it because they'd be doing it all the time all by themselves.

I only go into this because examining critical thinking is a hobby of mine. :mrgreen:

The body of puffer is made to puff up and they do it themselves from time to time, so it can't be that horrible. So, the first sentence in the quote above is not a logical conclusion, but an assumption, or an axiom you want others to accept.
I also don't see the logic in assuming that invoking a last ditch defensive move is unpleasant. Our own species does it all the time in theme parks, and people seem to find it very pleasant.
I see no support at all for the last sentence.

Or, to look at it another way:

If I'm wrong and it isn't unpleasant or harmful in any way at all, then I'm missing out on all the "puffy fun".

If I'm right, then it really is torture.

I think I'll stick with missing out on the "puffy fun".

Fair enough. But that argument can be extended to keeping fish in general:

Keeping a fish in a glass box is torture and it shouldn't be done.
If wrong, then all you miss out on 'fishy fun'.
If right, then it is torture.

Why not choose to err on the side of caution here as well?

:wink:

 

[Anonymous]

"I also don't see the logic in assuming that invoking a last ditch defensive move is unpleasant. Our own species does it all the time in theme parks, and people seem to find it very pleasant. "

Darn it Righty, I was just about to edit my post and add something of this nature. You're too quick for me.

 

[saltyzoo]

Oh, well Chris says it's bunk so it must be wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

Hiya G-man

 

[Anonymous]

ermm, or should I say "S-man"

 

[mountainbiker619]

when you wake up in the morning, do you take a nice long stretch? If you do, doesnt it feel good? It does when I do it. This topic is talking about possibly stressing a fish on purpose. As I stated earlier, I like to feed my fish because it is about the only time I get to see all of them all out together at once. Now this race for food I am sure can possibly cause stress on a fish. So going by this, does this make me a bad reef keeper, or a bad person?

 

[esmithiii]

So going by this, does this make me a bad reef keeper, or a bad person?

Apparently.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, well Chris says it's bunk so it must be wrong.

My stance is that the idea of purposely avoiding provoking a natural behavior to achieve a more "ideal" captive environment (how's that for an oxymoron?) is to make it easier on the aquarist's conscience.

(edit) I should probably add that instigating a puffing reaction via handling or touching is asking for epidermal infection. (/edit)

 

[Anonymous]

You guys have come along way since the other day. Wow what a thread maybe it'll keep your puffer pinching fingers busy for awhile.

So who's against the proding and pinching?, and who's for the proding and pinching?

 

[Zepplin]

galleon-I don't restrict Hoss' puffing, he chooses to puff on his own accord. I object to forcing the reaction.

I'm in a little bit of disbelief that so many experienced aquarists find such behavior acceptable. Surely, you realize a lot of new aquarists frequent your BB. Honestly, I think you fellows are acting irresponsibly.

I suppose if you truly don't see provoking this reaction as stressful, then you wouldn't discourage it. You're right in not wanting to judge others. I respect that. However, just because we have selfishly choosen to pull these animals out of there natural habitat, doesn't mean they cease to matter after the fact. You argue that we're all wrong to keep tanks in the first place, so it really doesn't matter what we do with the contents. I see a clear distinction between the two types of people discussed in this thread. Treatment of fish after the fact counts.

-Meg

 

[Anonymous]

Animals get stressed. It's natural. Like I said before, a puffer probably puffs several times a year, if not per month or day, in the wild. As long as you are providing the right captive conditions with lots of swimming room, and good quality food and water, a puffer probably endures much less stress in a tank than in the wild. No predators, abundant food, and no ectoparasites to fight off in the right tank. While it is possible that pinching the animal once or twice while you own it might be stressful, it is hardly "torture".

You argue that we're all wrong to keep tanks in the first place, so it really doesn't matter what we do with the contents. I se

This is just so incorrect. Why do you think we frequent this BB? For me, it's to learn as much info as possible to keep my animals alive and healthy for as long as possible. I don't believe pinching a puffer will compromise its health.

 

[dizzy]

We're Sergeant Puffer's Lonely Hearts Club Band, sit down and watch the evening go. We're Sergeant Puffers one and only Lonely Hearts Club Band, we hope you have enjoyed the show. :roll:

 

[esmithiii]

I'm in a little bit of disbelief that so many experienced aquarists find such behavior acceptable. Surely, you realize a lot of new aquarists frequent your BB. Honestly, I think you fellows are acting irresponsibly.

I suppose if you truly don't see provoking this reaction as stressful, then you wouldn't discourage it. You're right in not wanting to judge others. I respect that. However, just because we have selfishly choosen to pull these animals out of there natural habitat, doesn't mean they cease to matter after the fact. You argue that we're all wrong to keep tanks in the first place, so it really doesn't matter what we do with the contents. I see a clear distinction between the two types of people discussed in this thread. Treatment of fish after the fact counts.

I think you missed the point. First, I don't think it really stresses the animal that much. Second, I am not sure it is all that painful/uncomfortable for the animal. Third, I don't think pulling fish out of the oceans for my enjoyment is wrong. I don't think that pinching them to see them puff up is wrong. I do think that you can't have it both ways- you can't condemn someone for pinching a fish to see it puff up saying that it is selfish/wrong and ignore the fact that by that logic, keeping fish at all is selfish/wrong.

Meg- I really think that your emotional feelings for your fish are clouding your logic. No offense, but you sound (like others who contributed to this thread condemning puffer-pinching) self-righteous and a bit hypocritical. "oh, don't pinch the poor puffer! I take such good care of my nice little fish who was violently removed from his natural habitat, transported thousands of miles in a little plastic bag with hundreds of his little friends most of whom died on the way only to end up in a small glass box in my den where I can get pleasure from watching him swim around in circles trying to find a way back to the rest of the reef."

How can you say that you are any better than the next guy who indulges in a little puffer-pinching every now and then?

Look, I don't want to sound harsh. In my opinion, they are just fish, captured for our own pleasure. If a guy thinks its cool to see him puff up every now and then, great. If your kick is to see him napping in the xenia, great. I don't see much difference at all.

To me ethical reefkeeping means acting in a way that ensures that wild stocks are a renewable resource so that this hobby will be around for my great-grandchildren. (Yes, I am contributing to the overpopulation of the planet- I want many children) Pinching your puffer every now and then IMO has nothing to do with it either way.

Just my opinion.

 

[esmithiii]

Also- I searched ReefCentral for the reference to this thread that you mentioned but was unable to locate it. Can you post a link to it?

Ernie

 

[Zepplin]

esmithii-No, I cannot post a link. By the way, it's not xenia, its clavularia.

Thank you for having me, further discussion here will obviously be unproductive.

-Meg