Does it make sence to you??

[TomH]

When I entered this hobby (the first time), I was unaware of the consequences of promoting "wild caught" fisheries, and I was similarly unaware of the uses of cyanide and "blast fishing" in the industry. In fact, when I became aware of the processes used in commercial fishing for "decorative" fish, I used it as an excuse to stay out of the hobby, especially after I became a certified diver, and experienced the entire breadth of the ecosystem that we (perhaps vainly) attempt to replicate.

It seems, though, that one can only stay away from this hobby for so long, so when I began to plan for the new tank, I did so with an eye to keeping tank raised fishes, captive-raised frags, and farmed clams.

In so doing, the purchaser of the captive-bred specimen does put moneyback into preserving the reef because that $18 perc just eliminate $6 worth of cyanide or blasting caps. Similarly, it puts $12 worth of research into more efficient (therefore cost-effective) means of captive breeding.

When considering the costs, one must remember that captive-breeding is still in its infancy; and that just a few years ago, the folks who are selling captive-bred specimens were likely just hobbyists like you and I.

Just something to keep in mind.

BTW -- I think its good that you are analyzing this dilema -- many folks would have simply picked "that cheaper one" without inquiring why.

 

[Anonymous]

If you care about the reefs, you will part with some extra money to buy captives when the are available. "I can't afford to pay the extra" is a pathetic excuse not to purchase captives IMO. If your are a dedicated reefer and aquarist, and expect to keep this fish alive for close to natural lifespan, what's a few extra bucks up front gonna do your finances. It is hypocritical to use this excuse IF YOU really give a rats hiney! So there! 8O

Louey

 

[Len]

Be nice louey!

 

[Anonymous]

I agree...if you're complaining about not having enough money, then reefkeeping is definitely not a hobby you should be in.

Just my opinion, because I see it all the time in the store I work at...

Peace,

Chip

 

[AngelMaster]

Yea

This is alot more fun to discuss than telling someone how to control algae

So when, if ever, do you guys think the lowly consumer will see the benefit of practicing conscientous marine purchasing?

I think this is where a free market is at it's strongest. We supply the demand for captive fish, more merchants begin getting into it, competitiveness ensues and prices become lower. Higher demand still equals profit for the merchants involved.

I just don't think the demand is there yet,hence the 20-30 dollar premiums we typically see now. If people walk away with anything from this thread I hope it's buy captive raised! It's like voting one vote doesn't mean much when considered individually, but a few thousands do.

So maybe the answer to your question is by yourself, it accomplishes little but when we all do it, it changes the face of reefkeeping entirely.

 

[DOGMAI]

The tank is the reason im financially strained. I put myself in the hole getting it all set up and ready. Now I must pay the price. But you telling me im not a responcible reefer is as pathetic as calling me pathetic. Who are you to judge which fish I buy? Because I dont have a lot of money to spend on this hoby does not mean that my tank is not doing well or that I neglect it. My tank is thriving and I have zero problems with it. You guys need to stop beeting me up for my topic. I posted it to ask two questions 1 how much do they charge for tank raised where you live and 2. do you pay it? I wish I could but I cant. That makes me no worse or no better a reefer than any of you.

Im just happy that I posted a topic that actually made two pages

 

[Anonymous]

You guys need to stop beeting me up for my topic.

For God's sake, leave the vegetables out of this!



Peace,

Chip

 

[TomH]

You guys need to stop beeting me up for my topic.

For God's sake, leave the vegetables out of this!



Peace,

Chip

ROTFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol: (Not at you, DOGMAI -- just at the joke)

 

[Anonymous]

DOGMIA said:

My tank is thriving and I have zero problems with it.

See there, you can keep that fish alive for along time. Maybe you should buy your fish less often, but buy captive when they are available. I am not trying to bash you personally either, you must care about the reefs or you wouldn't have started this topic. :wink:

But you telling me im not a responcible reefer is as pathetic as calling me pathetic.

Who said this? :? I said your excuse for not buying captives was pathetic. This has nothing to do with your ability to keep marines alive and thriving. This topic is to debate the merits of captive vs. wild caught, right? It has nothing to do with your reef keeping skills but everything to do with what WE are willing to do to help the reefs of the world survive.

I'd prolly pay double for a captive. Especially if it is a cheapy, like a clownfish. :wink:

Louey

 

[Anonymous]

I paid $25 each for my captive-bred clowns 4 years ago, and I charge $25 each for the ones I sell at the store. Everyone has great success with them, and I'm proud to put that ORA sticker on my tank and gladly explain to customers why they price is really a bargain.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

The solution is simple. Buying tank raised fish versus wild caught is simple. Here it is laid out for ya dragoon style.

Let's say you want a Dog. Now you can go get a wild dog that has been running around in the wilderness for awhile, or you can go get a trained docile animal from a nice respectable breeder. You'll save money with the wild dog "supposedly", and you'll pay a considerable amount for a registered animal. Now lets say you got the wild dog for "free". Now it's free and you saved all this money, but two months later it has heartworms (considerable $$treatment). After that it begins to have hip problems($$$$), and goes crazy and kills your neighbor's cat and mangles thier kid(hello poor house). Now you have a lawsuit against you and you've wasted time and money on a "Free/cheap" dog.

All in all it's what you want to do. My experience is that all T/R stuff is nicer looking and healthier. If you have an expensive assortment of fish why worry about a few bucks when the difference can cost you a couple hundred.

Price for T/R perc's here is around the same as you pay, and Yes I would pay it if it.

 

[Anonymous]

Haven't bought any fish for my tank this time around, but I am doing some researching to see if any of the fish I want can be had Captive.

I haven't seen any captive fish at all in my area, but the fish stores in South Jersey are lousy

18$ for a clownfish sounds fine to me, the ones in the store nearest me are 15$ and its luck of the draw with them.

Bryan

 

[Anonymous]

Since you asked, and I forgot to answer, captive raised false percs are about 12 here in Sacramento. I suppose they cost a bit more the further away you are from SF. I've never even seen a wild false perc offered for sale, at least not marked as wild. I suppose there's nothing stopping a LFS from selling a wild as T/R though.

 

[Micah00]

The percs at the LFS about 10 miles from my house are $19 and who knows if they are tank raised or not they would tell you they were or wasn't depending on what you wanted to hear. But at the LFS about 40 miles away they try to get everything they can tank raised and even raise and propagate corals. Their percs used to be $20 but after Nemo came out they are selling them for $30. Myself when I first started I didn't really care or I guess even took the time to understand it was just "I want that fish" But now I have a differtent outlook on things and have been trying to buy captive breed when I can and trying to just buy frags of aquacultered corals. The funny thing that came to mind about the $$$ was I told my wife when I was buying my first tank for saltwater " I probally will just end up spending about $600- $700 for everything." :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[DustinDorton]

And if the tank raised are a stronger fish that means i can go through 3 ocean raised fish for the price of one tank raised fish. So i get three tries for the price of one and at the price of taking fish from the reef.

That kind of attitude really is deplorable.
You should also keep in mind how many of those wild caught fish die in the holding tanks at collecting stations, wholesalers and retail stores. Wild caught clowns, particularly ocellaris have tremendous mortality rates. I can't even tell you how many times I have been to a wholesaler and seen hundreds of dead and dying ocellaris. To get those 3 cheap clowns, you indirectly supported the deaths of of many other fish, and perahps the anemone as well.

 

[DOGMAI]

Some of you still dont get it. Im not for the slaughter of reef animals I am for cheaper t/r animals. I made the mistake at the biginning of this topic to say that I buy wild over tank raised because they are cheaper. I thought I had redeemed myself when I said that I wish I could afford to buy the tank raised. I dont get to buy fish or coral very often but when I do I dont have a lot of money to do it, therfor....

You know what you guys are going to bash me no matter what I say. Bottom line I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED. Somehow you guys missed that part of my posts. :evil:

Bash away.

I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED
I AM FOR TANK RAISED NOT WILD RAISED

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think anyone's bashing you DOGMAI, just disagreeing with your opinion. I consider it a waste of all the money I put into a tank if I fill it with inexpensive fish. I consider the 100-200 I invest in a single awesome looking, well collected and handled fish to be the best dollar for dollar investment in a reef tank (I throw 300 at a skimmer, and no one ever even sees it, feel me?). So, to me anyway, your hesitation to buy a better fish because of a 15 dollar price difference is a bit odd. I try to invest in the very best skimmer, lights, salt mix, pumps, etc. etc. that money can buy, and fish are no exception.

I'm for cheaper TR also, but you have to understand that aquaculturing of fish, ESPECIALLY marine fish is an expensive endeavor. Aquaculture of marine ornamentals really is a brand new enterprise in the grand scheme of things, and the only way to make prices cheaper and have more TR species available is to support TR fish and inverts as much as possible.

 

[miktrav2]

Matt,

It's fine to say buy tank raised but how can you say how can you afford a tank? The tank is the cheapest piece of equipment I have running right now next to my pumps.

I know when I first started in the saltwater side of this hobby I was blown away by the amount of equipment and the prices. I bought the cheapest of everything I could and thought that all equipment was made equal. My bottom line was, well, my bottom line. I wanted to get into the hobby as cheaply as possible. If I go into the Local Pet Store and see 2 percs side by side wild caught and one captive bred with an $8 difference in price yes I would buy the wild caught specimen. In fact the percs I have in my tank are both wild caught and have been in there since the beginning. $8 may not be a big deal to you but I have a son in day care that costs me $175 a week and a mortgage to pay. I don't have a lot left to put into this hobby so whatever I can save counts.



I love this hobby and would love to be able to buy wild caught but how many types of fish are there that are captive bred? Do you really think that that one or two species is going to do much to prevent the depletion of wild stock? I guess you guys don't buy tuna because it's killing off dolphins or only buy organically grown produce because the phospates from the fertilizer that's used is running off into the oceans and choking our reefs with algae? Do you guys protest the navy for using sonar that deafens the whales and causes them to beach? What about the captive bred percs with all the deformities from all the inbreeding? To say you should only buy captive raised and shouldn't be in the hobby because you can't afford it is crap. I feel that you should get started and make the investment that you are comfortable with and won't lead you to unduly lose or hurt your livestock. Maybe then, if more people were to get into the hobby, an awareness of what was being done to our oceans and our reefs would be built. There would be more interest by companies to find out how to breed and raise more types of fish and now difficult to keep corals. Maybe then prices would go down for captive bred species and eliminate the incentive for even collecting in the wild.

Sorry for venting but I couldn't just sit here.

Mike

PS

Does it really cost less to 1) pay someone living in Fiji to collect a fish or coral, 2) store that fish or coral in a holding facility, 3) arrange for shipment and storage to the west coast, 3) ship from West Coast to Local Fish store than it does to raise captive? Not sure but something stinks here.

 

[miktrav2]

I guess you gueys are going to stop eating fish now:




Study: Nets Drown 1,000 Cetaceans Daily

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030615/ap_on_sc/drowning_whales_2


Extinction nears for whales and dolphins

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3024785.stm


Mike

 

[Anonymous]

You really only need to ask yourself one question here:

1. Are captives worth the extra money, because in buying them, you help support the farmers that are growing them, thus helping to bring the prices down, and you save countless wild caught fish's death, and the possible destruction of reefs?

If you say no to this question, then you care about your aquarium, not the reefs of the world IMHO 8O .

Louey