- Location
- San Francisco (formerly Manhattan!)
You really don't want to get into a philosophical debate with me about education or the environment. Trust me :wink:
Ecotech Marine Vortech propeller pump
- Thread starter Len
- Start date
On this whole cost issue. Wait.
The MRSP does not reflect street.
The MRSP does though still reflect what the inventors/makers feel the product's value is worth on the marketplace given the following(remember I am talking ANY product here):
As for RDO staff espousing products I don't see how this pump is any different from any other review or comment RDO staffers make on any other product. RDO staffers have commented on the quality/value operations or lack there of on skimmers, reactors, pumps, powerheads and vendors for years. If for some reason these pumps start to have an absymal failure rate or repair rate I'm quite sure you will hear it from those who were early adopters including RDO staffers.
And I still think that if you get the chance to see one in person and hold it and take it apart and just see it first hand you will see what I have been saying all along. Its well built and moves a lot of water with little power.
So if you know someone who has one testing or an LFS that will have it on hand once these go public go check it out. It may turn out that its a great product but not for your tank or situation, and thats ok. I would have bought a Tunze set up but felt it was best to wait and test these. I also fought the urge to drop the dime on a CA reactor for YEARS cause I couldnt justify the cost or need. These pumps are no different.
It is expensive but so is its competition and more so for = equipment (compare Tunze 6100 + magnetic holder; 335+either 36 or 51$ ). These are also compatible with many peoples existing wave makers/controllers. Where as I think you can only use the Tunze controller with the Tunze - some one correct me on that if im wrong please.
The MRSP does not reflect street.
The MRSP does though still reflect what the inventors/makers feel the product's value is worth on the marketplace given the following(remember I am talking ANY product here):
- 1. Its quality of contruction (or not)
2. The duribility of the product (or not)
3. The intended market (purchaser/niche)
4. The competition its up against - (you dont make a car to compete against the Porsche and sell it at Kia price...it wont work. An example of this is Subaru WRX or Honda Accord. Sure they go as fast or faster but they won't ever compete for Porsche sales. Sure its inverse marketing but its been tested a million times by companies that people equate quality with price and it usually works out that way.)
As for RDO staff espousing products I don't see how this pump is any different from any other review or comment RDO staffers make on any other product. RDO staffers have commented on the quality/value operations or lack there of on skimmers, reactors, pumps, powerheads and vendors for years. If for some reason these pumps start to have an absymal failure rate or repair rate I'm quite sure you will hear it from those who were early adopters including RDO staffers.
And I still think that if you get the chance to see one in person and hold it and take it apart and just see it first hand you will see what I have been saying all along. Its well built and moves a lot of water with little power.
So if you know someone who has one testing or an LFS that will have it on hand once these go public go check it out. It may turn out that its a great product but not for your tank or situation, and thats ok. I would have bought a Tunze set up but felt it was best to wait and test these. I also fought the urge to drop the dime on a CA reactor for YEARS cause I couldnt justify the cost or need. These pumps are no different.
It is expensive but so is its competition and more so for = equipment (compare Tunze 6100 + magnetic holder; 335+either 36 or 51$ ). These are also compatible with many peoples existing wave makers/controllers. Where as I think you can only use the Tunze controller with the Tunze - some one correct me on that if im wrong please.
- Location
- San Francisco (formerly Manhattan!)
If you read my posts, you will see I am not questioning the quality of the product, or RDO's role in reviewing it- I think we all are benefitting from it. I am questioning the absence of any discussion of affordability in those reviews. I think it is an important part of the equation, for many of us on the board.
Also, the market stratification you point out for cars does not really apply here. Clearly that Vortech is going head to head with Tunze. However, if the Vortech were sold at a point in the middle of the Tunze field, say $225, it would not detract from its preceived quality. Oddly, you make my point by saying that part of the price component is customer perception. It is just that customer perception part of the $350 price, to which I jokingly asign "silliness", into which I am trying to inject realism, as already stated.
Also, the market stratification you point out for cars does not really apply here. Clearly that Vortech is going head to head with Tunze. However, if the Vortech were sold at a point in the middle of the Tunze field, say $225, it would not detract from its preceived quality. Oddly, you make my point by saying that part of the price component is customer perception. It is just that customer perception part of the $350 price, to which I jokingly asign "silliness", into which I am trying to inject realism, as already stated.
- Location
- new zealand
len wrote
What did you say
leftovers wrote
The stream is 45w and the vortech 35-40w
If you think you will saves big on power and heat then remove you skimmer and main pump.
i fail to see big power savings between the stream and the vortech.
even the heat of a stream is so minor that it is not worth worry about.
What did you say
leftovers wrote
The stream is 45w and the vortech 35-40w
If you think you will saves big on power and heat then remove you skimmer and main pump.
i fail to see big power savings between the stream and the vortech.
even the heat of a stream is so minor that it is not worth worry about.
cetled":3ebo54fx said:len wrote
What did you say
leftovers wrote
The stream is 45w and the vortech 35-40w
If you think you will saves big on power and heat then remove you skimmer and main pump.
i fail to see big power savings between the stream and the vortech.
even the heat of a stream is so minor that it is not worth worry about.
If you fail to see it then you havent seen one in a tank. Tunze's heat the water. They do so to the tune of AT LEAST 1-3 degrees F. That is quite a bit of heat for 1 pump. Tunze's also use more than the 45W they state. The vortech will TOP out at 45w most users will see them consume 25-35 watts. Again do the math and 10 watts is a lot of savings when running a componet 24x7x365 and even more if you are running mulitple devices.
Leftovers wrote:
But the 6200's are on the market.
Why not compare them to the 6200's?
This makes no sense to me.
I have two 6200's in my 300G tank and I have not seen anything in this thread that has in any way made me feel compelled to change them out for two Vortech's.
I'm not dis-ing the Vortech's. They appear to be fine pumps. But to say that they are the greatest thing out there doesn't appear to be true when the Tunze 6200's clearly have much more flow (2000 GPH). This cannot be ignored. Sure the 6200's comsume more watts, but they have more flow. You get what you pay for all the way around.
Louey
But the 6200's are on the market.
Why not compare them to the 6200's?
This makes no sense to me.
I have two 6200's in my 300G tank and I have not seen anything in this thread that has in any way made me feel compelled to change them out for two Vortech's.
I'm not dis-ing the Vortech's. They appear to be fine pumps. But to say that they are the greatest thing out there doesn't appear to be true when the Tunze 6200's clearly have much more flow (2000 GPH). This cannot be ignored. Sure the 6200's comsume more watts, but they have more flow. You get what you pay for all the way around.
Louey
Louey":5dn9nzue said:
ok, I think a little common sense would be in order here. If you want to compare dis-similer sized/output of pumps, then be my guest but what is the point?
The 6200's consume more power and are larger still over the 6100's and similar Vortech.
If you compare them to similar sized pumps then they offer an alternative choice over the 60xx line and 6100 by Tunze.
When you apples to apples the vortech IME wins. If you compare gallons per watt the vortech beats the Tunze and even the 6200.
But I don't think it's fair to compare those two given the large difference in power and water movement of th 6200.
There seems to be some contention between Ecotech and Tunze users defending the products they own. Ultimately, everyone will have to decide which pump suits them better. For me, the Vortech fits the bill (my main personal criteria being small size, but the Vortech does host numerous other advantages). If you need virtually dead silence (versus extremely mild mechanical noise) and if you need 5000gph (though it's been reported this figure is exaggerated), a Tunze Stream may be the better option for you.
If I owned Streams already, I might not be convinced to make a switch due to the cost. But then again, I personally can't tolerate big, inorganic-looking pieces of equipment in my tank (heck, even heaters bug me), so I really can't say I wouldn't buy the Vortech.
If I owned Streams already, I might not be convinced to make a switch due to the cost. But then again, I personally can't tolerate big, inorganic-looking pieces of equipment in my tank (heck, even heaters bug me
), so I really can't say I wouldn't buy the Vortech.Entacmaea":9ul0cjct said:
The only problem I have with this argument is you've not taken into consideration the production and R&D costs nor analysis of marginal costs and fixed costs, which none of us but Ecotech knows. I think this is the true "realism" you should be looking at, not the price you'd personally like to see for this product. As with any new products, the intial offering price is going to be higher. Demand-side economics and competition will stablize the price point.
Tunze or Vortech may be too expensive, but these companies are out to maximize profit, not to do hobbyists a social service. I'm not trying to defend capitalistic practices nor anyone's prices (I, too, wish products were more accessible), but this is how our economy works.
It's also important to recognize these high-end gear are luxury items for a reef tank, not necessisties for success.
Leftovers wrote:
I happened to specialize in common sense
We are comparing the two best "high-end in-tank powerheads", aren't we? One manufacturer makes a 5300 GPH PH and the other doesn't. People with large tanks need to be aware of that.
Eco-Tech's site doesn't say what the wattage of the Vortech's is. How do we know how much power they use?
They should make more options instead of just one 3000 GPH pump IMHO.
I do
Again, not dis-ing the Vortech's, but it seems too many beta testers are ready to call them the best thing since sliced bread and I think that may be premature consider that the Tunze have stood the test of time the fact that Vortech's controllers is still in development and we don't know what it will and will not do.
My 2 cents.
Louey
I happened to specialize in common sense
We are comparing the two best "high-end in-tank powerheads", aren't we? One manufacturer makes a 5300 GPH PH and the other doesn't. People with large tanks need to be aware of that.
Eco-Tech's site doesn't say what the wattage of the Vortech's is. How do we know how much power they use?
They should make more options instead of just one 3000 GPH pump IMHO.
.
I do
Again, not dis-ing the Vortech's, but it seems too many beta testers are ready to call them the best thing since sliced bread and I think that may be premature consider that the Tunze have stood the test of time the fact that Vortech's controllers is still in development and we don't know what it will and will not do.
My 2 cents.
Louey
Louey, Ecotech's post in this thread mentioned max power consumption:
"The product consumes between 35 and 40 watts of energy at its highest output"
I've also measured it at 27 watts at about 70% strength.
Maybe Ecotech will make a cheaper, smaller pump. This is, after all, their first pump offering. Since the vortech can be turned down to a few hundred gph and all the way up to 3000+ gph (all done externally from a simple dial!), it really serves almost everyone's interest, cost withstanding.
I think Ecotech beta users (and it's pretty unianimous) are universally praising the design as they have experienced. Yes, I think this is a significant product advancement. I can't think of another circulation innovation like this. No one is making comments on how well this product holds up over the span of years, though there is no indication that it will be any less or more reliable then, say, a Tunze. The fact that its modular and the motor is external should actually add life and value IMO.
The Streams were a great, revolutionary product that offered an entirely new way to circulate water. I think the Vortechs are evolutionarily better in nearly all aspects. This, of course, isn't saying that Streams aren't still great.
"The product consumes between 35 and 40 watts of energy at its highest output"
I've also measured it at 27 watts at about 70% strength.
Maybe Ecotech will make a cheaper, smaller pump. This is, after all, their first pump offering. Since the vortech can be turned down to a few hundred gph and all the way up to 3000+ gph (all done externally from a simple dial!), it really serves almost everyone's interest, cost withstanding.
I think Ecotech beta users (and it's pretty unianimous) are universally praising the design as they have experienced. Yes, I think this is a significant product advancement. I can't think of another circulation innovation like this. No one is making comments on how well this product holds up over the span of years, though there is no indication that it will be any less or more reliable then, say, a Tunze. The fact that its modular and the motor is external should actually add life and value IMO.
The Streams were a great, revolutionary product that offered an entirely new way to circulate water. I think the Vortechs are evolutionarily better in nearly all aspects. This, of course, isn't saying that Streams aren't still great.
- Location
- San Francisco (formerly Manhattan!)
Obviously there is R&D built into the product price Len... but as I have already stated, I'm talking about the silly mark-up on the product because of the hype, or customer perception, or Aston Martin Effect :wink:
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I still think the price is silly at $345, if you don't that is fine.
I look forward to that philosphical debate sometime in the Sump
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I still think the price is silly at $345, if you don't that is fine.
I look forward to that philosphical debate sometime in the Sump
- Location
- new zealand
I think it is totally irrelevant; there are far more other pumps/lights in an aquarium to worry about as they heat the water up more and use more power.
I doubt most are really not going to worry about a stream 6100 using 10 more watts or so compared to a vortech.
To be far the vortech needs to be compared with a 6100 as they are similar in flow.
Entacmaea":38gvl71e said:Obviously there is R&D built into the product price Len... but as I have already stated, I'm talking about the silly mark-up on the product because of the hype, or customer perception, or Aston Martin Effect :wink:
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I still think the price is silly at $345, if you don't that is fine.
I look forward to that philosphical debate sometime in the Sump
It sounds to me like you're a socialist who dislikes capitalism
- Location
- San Francisco (formerly Manhattan!)
Just fighting against the continued polarization of wealth, which as it turns out, rears its ugly head to the detriment of... education and the environment!
You sound like a Republican?!
You sound like a Republican?!
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