Eric Borneman coral controversy

[StevenPro]

Would it help to point out that the permit application came AFTER many corals were already in possession?

I see no date on the permit application other than some sort of expiration date.

 

[MrAnderson]

to say that this topic shouldn't even be discussed is ridiculous. There's enough data in the documents for some limited piecing-together of events.

If the level of stringency required by some in the audience was the true measure of propriety regarding speculation on events in general then NOTHING ever obtained by the press and public using the FOIA on any topic could be reasonably discussed; after all, pillow-talk or conversations in the hallway aren't in there. But documents like these are perfectly reasonable starting points for a discussion like this.

There are some facts in the documentation...

 

[sihaya]

Would it help to point out that the permit application came AFTER many corals were already in possession?

I see no date on the permit application other than some sort of expiration date.

You have to look at the documents linked next to "early conversations with permit coordinator."

Wait, hold on... I'll try and explain how I got that...

 

[Anonymous]

to say that this topic shouldn't even be discussed is ridiculous. There's enough data in the documents for some limited piecing-together of events.

If the level of stringency required by some in the audience were the true measure of propriety regarding speculation on events in general then NOTHING ever obtained by the press and public using the FOIA on any topic could be reasonably discussed; after all, pillow-talk or conversations in the hallway aren't in there. But documents like these are perfectly reasonable starting points for a discussion like this.

There are some facts in the documentation...

there's a world of difference between a discussion based on part of a picture, with limited documentation, and a witch hunt based mostly on wild conjecture from a few documents by a bunch of ignorami hobbyists on a bb that MAY affect people's reps, justly or unjustly

 

[sihaya]

Ok, it is a little confusing, but in one of the emails with the permit coordinator, it says the permit application came in Febuary 2004 and it looks like the first corals were taken in December 2003. But it looks like the initial corals were taken under a "FKNMS manager's permit." Ok, so that explains things a little.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, it is a little confusing, but in one of the emails with the permit coordinator, it says the permit application came in Febuary 2004 and it looks like the first corals were taken in December 2003. But it looks like the initial corals were taken under a "FKNMS manager's permit." Ok, so that explains things a little.

makes your first statement about the application above seem like an obvious rush to lay blame, where none may be. i.e., a witch hunt

give it a frikkin rest, until you have all of the facts

 

[MrAnderson]

there's a world of difference between a discussion based on part of a picture, with limited documentation, and a witch hunt based mostly on wild conjecture from a few documents by a bunch of ignorami hobbyists on a bb that MAY affect people's reps, justly or unjustly

well crap, i agree. but i'd say this thread is the former, not the latter. i wouldn't characterize this thread as "a witch hunt based mostly on wild conjecture" at all. i think most of the commentary has been fairly reasonable (exccept for me walking right in here and hitting on sara straight off, that is - i'm way better looking than EB btw!!!).

 

[sihaya]

Dude... I'm just trying to figure out a time line here. I don't think the matter of when the permit application came vs. when the first corals were taken means a whole lot for as far as any potential accusations go. It's just about trying to make sense of the timing of the different permits and documents.

 

[Anonymous]

The formal letter from the Superintendent of the Sanctuary, Billy Causey, revoking Eric's permit and requiring the corals return to the Sanctuary, is not conjecture.
This does not happen with scientists.
Look to see how many times this has even happened before.
This is a big deal and a last resort.

As Superintendent of the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary (FKNMA or Sanctuary) and under authority of Special Condition #1 of the above referenced permit, I hereby require that all scleractinian (stony) corals obtained by you or others affiliated with you from the water of the FKNMA during any time in 2003 and 2004 be returned in their entirety to the Sanctuary. All specimens, dead or alive, and all fragments or propagules thereof, must be returned to the federal government immediately upon receipt of this letter.

 

[sihaya]

Cracker2: Yeah... I think this is one thing a lot of hobbyists don't understand. It's a really big deal. And things have to get pretty bad before that happens.

 

[Anonymous]

These are not corals he bought at a pet shop, had a tank crash, and goes out and just buys more.

For a scientist to be awarded a permit, then have it pulled.

For the Superintendent to invoke Special Condition #1 and demand that the corals be returned to the Sanctuary immediately, everything, all of it from day one.

is a huge deal

That says what the Superintendent thinks about this.
must be returned to the federal government immediately[/b]

 

[sihaya]

Agreed.

corals he bought at a pet shop...

Funny idea, if you get bored of this forum, go read his RK article again... closely.

 

[Anonymous]

i don't seem to recall ANY of this ever making coral-list

if what had actually (and most here have yet to know what actually happened, including the two witch hunters) transpired was truly that serious, i'd imagine it would have at least been mentioned in passing on the list server, no?

 

[sihaya]

This is just not the kind of thing at all appropriate for the coral-list. And if anyone were foolish enough to try to post it, I'm thinking Jim Hendee would have a small fit. Now, the private CDHC list... maybe. But you can't post on that unless you're a member of the CDHC. And certainly you can see why they might be a bit shy to posting all this.

 

[Anonymous]

These are not corals he bought at a pet shop, had a tank crash, and goes out and just buys more.

For a scientist to be awarded a permit, then have it pulled.

For the Superintendent to invoke Special Condition #1 and demand that the corals be returned to the Sanctuary immediately, everything, all of it from day one.

is a huge deal

That says what the Superintendent thinks about this.
must be returned to the federal government immediately[/b]

that could just have easily have been because the sanctuary staff, or the 'super' made a booboo, and it was time to 'cya'...

 

[sihaya]

And that "booboo" would be...

You can't simultaneously claim that the project was perfectly worthwhile, legitimate, and well undertaken AND that FKNMS made a mistake in supporting it.

 

[Anonymous]

And that "booboo" would be...

You can't simultaneously claim that the project was perfectly worthwhile, legitimate, and well undertaken AND that FKNMS made a mistake in supporting it.

i said no such thing

the project may have definitely been worthwhile, legitimate, poorly undertaken and initially supported

there are many options-try to be less binary

 

[Anonymous]

Jim Hendee

Another fine Hendee I must say

 

[Anonymous]

i don't seem to recall ANY of this ever making coral-list

Eric stopped posting to coral list as soon as this happened and word got out.

This is embarrassing to the entire community, no one on the list filed a FOIA.

 

[Anonymous]

that could just have easily have been because the sanctuary staff, or the 'super' made a booboo, and it was time to 'cya'...

Could not agree more.

They should have checked out his stories and credentials.

They would have found out that he did not even have a lease, Reef Savers was not part of the University, and he could be kicked out at any time.

He presented himself as credible, the Chair of the CDHC and Reef Savers as the official facility of the CDHC. They went with that, confident that the CDHC had checked out his stories and confident that the CDHC would back it up.

I have never met him, but have heard it said by people that have, that he is very charming and could charm the socks off a viper.