Just to clear up the timeline, RS quits caring for the corals around Dec./Jan. and things start to go downhill. EB takes over the care and things improve. A month later, RS locks EB out. EB notifies the CDHC. Word trickles back to FKNMS. They revoke his permit and ask for the corals back. Should EB have notified FKNMS earlier? I don't know. But realistically, what could FKNMS done about any of this other than revoke the permit? You guys keep saying that revoking the permit is a last resort. It seems to me to have been the only thing FKNMS can/could have done.
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Charlesr1958":2zq7qp1a said:
chuck, you went off on a rant about Eric. I've never blamed Eric. I said it was the Sanctuary's fault for not checking out his story before they issued the permit. Was the location secured for a long/years term study, No.
Was the funding in place to keep this running for years, No.
None of this would have happened, if the Sanctuary had done their job. The Sanctuary should not have taken Eric's word for it, they should have checked out his story.
The Sanctuary is required to protect our natural resources, this is not protecting our natural resources.
As fas as honest, I posted that many times.
If Eric is anything, he is a representative of this hobby. He gives lectures to hobby clubs, he is at all of the hobby national meetings, he writes articles for hobby magazines, he has a online hobby magazine, he has a online hobby forum, he puts his name on hobby products and endorses them, etc.
If anything, Eric is the main representative of this hobby.
This is the kind of information that people that are against the hobby will use to get the hobby shut down.
You keep saying that if Eric did anything wrong, it was choosing ReerfSavers as the location and not reporting to his permitting agency immediately.
Yep, that's it. Choosing a location for a long term study of endangered protected natural resources, which he held under permit. A location that was not secured physically and financially.
And when it hit the fan, not reporting it to his permitting agency.
You are 100% correct.
.
I didnt want to get involved in this. Steven and Charles....and many others, you were not there, your information is not accurate.....probably because you only have one side of the story. Your dates are wrong, your understanding of the "free" care that was administered to the corals is wrong, and there is still so much more that i am learning because there was a whole bunch of DISHONESTY!!! we'll just leave it at that. no, lets go a little further since you two dont seem to mind.
FYI the corals were taken care of under my expert care, and i promise, that i grow coral with the best of them. After nine to ten months of loving care, i grew tired of unfulfilled promises and shady dealings and i had to do something to support my wife and soon to be born child. Running a facility of this size is tremendously expensive and up until that point, i had not recieved ANYTHING.....except more instructions on what I was supposed to do :roll: The burden of care was then shifted solely on to Mr. Borneman for the final few months. I went to Indonesia for business but i had to return because i was OBLIGATED to do so. I cut my trip short, to come back and deal with a wicked mess that someone else left, i started dialogue with the Keys management.I shipped approx. 35 large boxes of "live" coral back to the Keys, before Borneman took me to court under a erroneous accusation that was immediately thrown out.
I didnt want to get into this, but i am NOT willing to allow two people who dont know **** from shinola come on here and state second hand information from someone who wont say it himself. It doesnt matter anyway, i got screwed, and i let this go, fair dinkum. This whole thread is tired, and just needs to fizzle into oblivion. The project is over with, the corals have been returned to their rightful owners(willingly) and all parties involved are OVER this.
Let it go.
Reef Savers Inc.
FYI the corals were taken care of under my expert care, and i promise, that i grow coral with the best of them. After nine to ten months of loving care, i grew tired of unfulfilled promises and shady dealings and i had to do something to support my wife and soon to be born child. Running a facility of this size is tremendously expensive and up until that point, i had not recieved ANYTHING.....except more instructions on what I was supposed to do :roll: The burden of care was then shifted solely on to Mr. Borneman for the final few months. I went to Indonesia for business but i had to return because i was OBLIGATED to do so. I cut my trip short, to come back and deal with a wicked mess that someone else left, i started dialogue with the Keys management.I shipped approx. 35 large boxes of "live" coral back to the Keys, before Borneman took me to court under a erroneous accusation that was immediately thrown out.
I didnt want to get into this, but i am NOT willing to allow two people who dont know **** from shinola come on here and state second hand information from someone who wont say it himself. It doesnt matter anyway, i got screwed, and i let this go, fair dinkum. This whole thread is tired, and just needs to fizzle into oblivion. The project is over with, the corals have been returned to their rightful owners(willingly) and all parties involved are OVER this.
Let it go.
Reef Savers Inc.
I didnt want to get involved in this. Steven and Charles....and many others, you were not there, your information is not accurate.....probably because you only have one side of the story. Your dates are wrong, your understanding of the "free" care that was administered to the corals is wrong, and there is still so much more that i am learning because there was a whole bunch of DISHONESTY!!! we'll just leave it at that. no, lets go a little further since you two dont seem to mind.
FYI the corals were taken care of under my expert care, and i promise, that i grow coral with the best of them. After nine to ten months of loving care, i grew tired of unfulfilled promises and shady dealings and i had to do something to support my wife and soon to be born child. Running a facility of this size is tremendously expensive and up until that point, i had not recieved ANYTHING.....except more instructions on what I was supposed to do :roll: The burden of care was then shifted solely on to Mr. Borneman for the final few months. I went to Indonesia for business but i had to return because i was OBLIGATED to do so. I cut my trip short, to come back and deal with a wicked mess that someone else left, i started dialogue with the Keys management.I shipped approx. 35 large boxes of "live" coral back to the Keys, before Borneman took me to court under a erroneous accusation that was immediately thrown out.
I didnt want to get into this, but i am NOT willing to allow two people who dont know **** from shinola come on here and state second hand information from someone who wont say it himself. It doesnt matter anyway, i got screwed, and i let this go, fair dinkum. This whole thread is tired, and just needs to fizzle into oblivion. The project is over with, the corals have been returned to their rightful owners(willingly) and all parties involved are OVER this.
Let it go.
Reef Savers Inc.
FYI the corals were taken care of under my expert care, and i promise, that i grow coral with the best of them. After nine to ten months of loving care, i grew tired of unfulfilled promises and shady dealings and i had to do something to support my wife and soon to be born child. Running a facility of this size is tremendously expensive and up until that point, i had not recieved ANYTHING.....except more instructions on what I was supposed to do :roll: The burden of care was then shifted solely on to Mr. Borneman for the final few months. I went to Indonesia for business but i had to return because i was OBLIGATED to do so. I cut my trip short, to come back and deal with a wicked mess that someone else left, i started dialogue with the Keys management.I shipped approx. 35 large boxes of "live" coral back to the Keys, before Borneman took me to court under a erroneous accusation that was immediately thrown out.
I didnt want to get into this, but i am NOT willing to allow two people who dont know **** from shinola come on here and state second hand information from someone who wont say it himself. It doesnt matter anyway, i got screwed, and i let this go, fair dinkum. This whole thread is tired, and just needs to fizzle into oblivion. The project is over with, the corals have been returned to their rightful owners(willingly) and all parties involved are OVER this.
Let it go.
Reef Savers Inc.
Thank you!
Nope
The Sanctuary uses "saving the reef" "saving the corals" as every excuse they can think of to control development, stop someone from using of their own property, require sewers to be installed, control the building of docks and seawalls, every thing.
The Sanctuary is required to protect our natural resource and receives millions of dollars to do that. Anyone issued a permit to keep that natural resouce is also required to protect it.
For the Sanctuary to issue a permit to collect, transport, and house this protected natural resource to someone like this, is a big deal.
For the Sanctuary to not do the research on this, before issuing that permit, is a bigger deal.
Just ask anyone that owns property in the Floirda Keys.
That is why the Sanctuary has not been forth coming with this information. Why people have to file FOIA to get this.
.
Tropic":300d1fc5 said:
Nope
The Sanctuary uses "saving the reef" "saving the corals" as every excuse they can think of to control development, stop someone from using of their own property, require sewers to be installed, control the building of docks and seawalls, every thing.
The Sanctuary is required to protect our natural resource and receives millions of dollars to do that. Anyone issued a permit to keep that natural resouce is also required to protect it.
For the Sanctuary to issue a permit to collect, transport, and house this protected natural resource to someone like this, is a big deal.
For the Sanctuary to not do the research on this, before issuing that permit, is a bigger deal.
Just ask anyone that owns property in the Floirda Keys.
That is why the Sanctuary has not been forth coming with this information. Why people have to file FOIA to get this.
.
Tropic: "I didnt want to get involved in this. Steven and Charles....and many others, you were not there, your information is not accurate.....probably because you only have one side of the story. Your dates are wrong, your understanding of the "free" care that was administered to the corals is wrong, and there is still so much more that i am learning because there was a whole bunch of DISHONESTY!!! we'll just leave it at that. no, lets go a little further since you two dont seem to mind. "
And for that, I apologize and should have kept my mouth shut from day one as should have everyone else. This proves my point that this could not be discussed with fragmented information which I obviously also had. Which makes me just as guilty as everyone else. Again. I am sorry. Lesson learned.
Chuck
And for that, I apologize and should have kept my mouth shut from day one as should have everyone else. This proves my point that this could not be discussed with fragmented information which I obviously also had. Which makes me just as guilty as everyone else. Again. I am sorry. Lesson learned.
Chuck
Aerosmith":336my5by said:
Not hypocritical at all. For me to be hypocritical, I would have to be raising cain about the loss of corals from a reef and NOT raising cain at someone who comes onine and asks why their coral is losing tissue or when a tank crashes and kills everything. Yes, it saddens me to see any reef in trouble, but I am also greatly aware of the impact "my" hobby has as well. And it is that moral quandry that we as hobbyists have to account for with ourselves. My point was that we of all peaple, do not have much moral high ground to stand upon when screaming at others about saving a reef. Kind of like showing up to help a protest to save the baby seals while you are carrying a club. In this case, the "save the reef" call to arms is being used as a cover to exact revenge. Our high ground just got shorter.
And no, I am not giving up my tank nor my hobby simply because I have never used a concern over the reefs to beat the crap out of someone else.
Chuck
Charlesr1958":10vtk777 said:
You keep acting like this is some pet shop corals. Like is typical on hobby boards, my coral died I'm going to buy another one.
These are endangered natural resources, protected by federal law. Law that the Sanctuary is required to protect.
People have to get permits to keep them.
Laws that anyone issued a permit is required to protect.
I am raising cane about the Sanctuary giving someone a permit to keep these corals, not checking that person's story out to see if the requirements for that permit were even possible to meet, and then trying to cover it up.
.
you do realize that many, and i mean many corals were knowingly destroyed in the dredging of the truman annex, right? Most of these corals were settled on manmade substrate, and they only attempted to salvage the larger sized pieces. The other million pieces were surely terminated by the amount of silt that was stirred into the water column.
Charles,
no problem.
Charles,
no problem.
So that makes it alright.
You do realize that the Navy was charged money to collect, house, and relocate a certain amount of corals. Corals that were specified to be relocated above a certain size.
Was the Navy notified that the numbers of corals collected, the corals housed, and the corals documented to be relocated, did not match?
The corals that were not allocated for relocation on the Navy's agreement with the Sanctuary, fell below a size limit that was acceptable to the Federal government and all other parties involved.
No one is discussing what happened to those corals. Those were the corals that were NOT mandated for relocation. Those were the corals that permits were issued to qualified institutions, for collection.
.
You do realize that the Navy was charged money to collect, house, and relocate a certain amount of corals. Corals that were specified to be relocated above a certain size.
Was the Navy notified that the numbers of corals collected, the corals housed, and the corals documented to be relocated, did not match?
The corals that were not allocated for relocation on the Navy's agreement with the Sanctuary, fell below a size limit that was acceptable to the Federal government and all other parties involved.
No one is discussing what happened to those corals. Those were the corals that were NOT mandated for relocation. Those were the corals that permits were issued to qualified institutions, for collection.
.
Plain and simple, this is THE issue. The application for permit never explicitly states corals will be sold, but did infer it. The application states "corals will be made available to researchers at a cost lower than currently available."StevenPro":1h3x5yym said:
Clearly EBs application infers that the corals will be sold, but clearly the permit granted does not explicitly allow this. How that simple matter was not cleared up, whether corals would be sold or not, is astonishing to me. Astonishing that EB would take the corals without clear written consent that he could eventually sell them, and astonishing that the FKNMS would allow him to take the corals when he clearly infered selling them was part of the plan.
A great plan for disaster if you ask me.
Nevermind... looks like Mr. Koch has cleared some things up.
Mr. Koch, I know you really didn't want to say anything. Thank you for speaking up.
Now I really think this conversation has beaten just about every point there is to beat. I wouldn't object to it being closed temporarily until more documents turn up.
Mr. Koch, I know you really didn't want to say anything. Thank you for speaking up.
Now I really think this conversation has beaten just about every point there is to beat. I wouldn't object to it being closed temporarily until more documents turn up.
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