it was my understanding that he took corals that he wasnt supposed too, he had a permit to dive himself, and collect everything he wanted, but since he couldnt, he was allowed to take specimens less than 20" out of the lab, is this not the way it happened now? they didnt give "the rest" to anyone, they tried, and he nearly cleaned them out.gwaco":23uty0uq said:
- Status
Cracker2":3i4dmjek said:
I have to speak up just to say that I find your inability to comprehend something after it has been explained to you a great many times to be frustrating at the least.
Eric's only, and ONLY mistake he made, was in chosing Reef Savers as the site. He did so, only because reef savers facility was capable of such a large scale operation AND it was nearest to Eric's home, which made monitoring it possible. When Reef savers chose not to wait for the funding to arrive any longer (their payment) they slowly but surely allowed their systems to go downhill, to the point that Eric had to assume their daily care needs, when Reef savers saw this, they started denying basic equipment (ladders and such), Eric supplied his own equipment. Since that was not stopping anything, they changed the locks, blocked entry with vehicles and so on. Eric reported it. Eric had permit revoked and told to remove the corals from Reef Savers. Reef savers refused to give them up. Eric went to a judge, judge pointed out the fact (to eric) that since his permit and thus ownership had been revoked, the judge refused to issue an order for the return of the corals. ONLY the owners of the corals, which was no longer Eric according to the judge, could retrieve the corals. Go find the judges ruling and you will have your proof. To continually lay blame on Eric for not returning the corals in a timely manner is rediculous, What would and could you do if a judge says you are not the owner anymore? Eric notifed the "new" owners and it was now up to them to recover the corals. How frikken hard is that to understand? good lord!
So, how could Eric, try as he may, comply with the order to return the corals? HE COULD NOT!!! And during all of that time, reef savers were the coral's only source of care, how well do you think they performed that task while Eric was locked out and LEGALLY unable to remove the corals from Reef savers. And how much time had passed before the now, legal owners, came to claim and remove the corals? Then where did they go from there, and then from there, and then from there?
To sit here and continualy blame Eric who did the best he could under the legal circumstances that he was placed into by both the permitting powers to be and the coral's holding facility is crazy! Eric was caught between a rock and hard place (in the middle) and did the best that he could do given the circumstances. You want to place blame, figure it out, get the whole story, and then take it from there.
In short.... get over "Eric", or at least, get past him.
and no, I will not be drawn further into it, I said my peace once again, and will only do so again if I feel it will be of use, while at the same time respecting others wishes. I may have said too much already, but a good many of you still do not have a clue as to what you speak of.
Chuck
Charlesr1958":j4l48ce0 said:
Taking corals intended for research to a commercial distributor is arguably a big mistake.
I'm afraid you're looking at this a bit too much from a hobbyist perspective. When it comes to federal permits, research and science, it's about more than just "good faith." It's about proper procedure, following protocol and assuming responsibility.
It wasn't until the very end that Mr. Borneman was bared from Reef Savers. Why wasn't the FKNMS notified *immediately* as soon as the corals first started to decline? It seems like, from Billy Causey's letter, that FKNMS wasn't notified until long after the corals became in jeopardy. The FKNMS probably could have stepped in and helped well before things got as bad as they did... if they had only been made aware of the situation much sooner than they were.
Charlesr1958":3r7ozz8w said:
Hmm... well, *maybe* they were told that they could get grants to do the work... grants that would be quite difficult to get considering they are not researchers and not affiliated with the University of Houston. (Though I have no documentation on that at the moment, it should be easy enough to get if this was in fact the case.)
"Why wasn't the FKNMS notified *immediately* as soon as the corals first started to decline?"
Apparently because Eric thought he had the situation under control and would care for the corals himself as needed, which he did. It was only when he was locked out did he have to resort to asking for outside help in gaining access. THE big mistake was their revoking his permit during his attempts to do something, anything, which in fact, just tied his hands. Again, Eric did the best he could do for the corals, but being caught between the permitting powers and the facility itself left him out of the loop and powerless to do anything about it.
Apparently because Eric thought he had the situation under control and would care for the corals himself as needed, which he did. It was only when he was locked out did he have to resort to asking for outside help in gaining access. THE big mistake was their revoking his permit during his attempts to do something, anything, which in fact, just tied his hands. Again, Eric did the best he could do for the corals, but being caught between the permitting powers and the facility itself left him out of the loop and powerless to do anything about it.
Chuck - look at the emails with Billy Causey. Mr. Borneman told Mr. Causey that the corals started to decline in Dec/Jan. But the FKNMS didn't know of any problems until March! Furthermore, the FKNMS didn't find out about the problems from Mr. Borneman. Rather, they found out from Craig Watson. So how do we know that Mr. Borneman would have contacted FKNMS at all had Mr. Watson not alerted the them?
Charlesr1958":3t9mtmty said:
Let me take a shot at this... are you suggesting that Reef Savers submitted a bill to Mr. Borneman for the cost of maintaining the corals granted to him under his permit. When Mr. Borneman refused to pay, Reef Savers could not afford to maintain the corals? Even supposed this is true... how would this excuse anyone? I imagine that caring for that much coral costs a great deal of money (more money than any normal distributor would have to spare). If they knew they weren't allowed to sell the corals, where were they supposed to get the money?
Again, even if we suppose this scenario *hypothetically*... when the corals began to decline in Dec/Jan why wasn't the FKMNS called in to help? The FKNMS was contacted in MARCH, and not initially by Mr. Borneman, but my Craig Watson. Why?
I've said too much already, but you are wandering off course with assumptions and guesses. again, one last hint....
itemized costs submitted for payment = dispute
Thats all I will allow myself to say, the notifications and actions taken with the documents that you do have, are fragmented yet again. And yet again, get past Eric and the only thing you will find is a man caught between the upper and lower ends of the story and basicaly being left to hold the bag by a bunch of hobbyists claiming a moral high ground.
Could Eric have started screaming "foul!" earlier, possibly. Not that it matters if he did or not. He took over the job of their care most likely hoping that once the "dispute" was resolved, all would go back to the way it started out as. Would you scream foul to your boss if you can handle it yourself? Doing so would only make you look unable to deal with problems or are unwilling to command. Not something anyone in a supervisory role would want to show their "boss".
Having been in command positions in the military, I know full well, that if I were to ever go to my "boss" and tell him that there is a problem, the first thing my boss would have asked is "what are you doing about it?", and to give him an answer of "telling you about it" would have ensured my never being promoted again or given any responsibility again. Going to "upper managment" is always a last resort, and just plain human nature. And for this, we have Eric already on the cross. Shamefull.
itemized costs submitted for payment = dispute
Thats all I will allow myself to say, the notifications and actions taken with the documents that you do have, are fragmented yet again. And yet again, get past Eric and the only thing you will find is a man caught between the upper and lower ends of the story and basicaly being left to hold the bag by a bunch of hobbyists claiming a moral high ground.
Could Eric have started screaming "foul!" earlier, possibly. Not that it matters if he did or not. He took over the job of their care most likely hoping that once the "dispute" was resolved, all would go back to the way it started out as. Would you scream foul to your boss if you can handle it yourself? Doing so would only make you look unable to deal with problems or are unwilling to command. Not something anyone in a supervisory role would want to show their "boss".
Having been in command positions in the military, I know full well, that if I were to ever go to my "boss" and tell him that there is a problem, the first thing my boss would have asked is "what are you doing about it?", and to give him an answer of "telling you about it" would have ensured my never being promoted again or given any responsibility again. Going to "upper managment" is always a last resort, and just plain human nature. And for this, we have Eric already on the cross. Shamefull.
Charlesr1958":8655x3bh said:
You still don't understand... it doesn't matter. Why do you suppose Billy Causey states he had no place or interest in getting involved in any financial conflict between Mr. Borneman and Reef Savers?
The FKNMS cares A LOT about the corals it issues under FKNMS permits. They should have been contacted *immediately* in Dec/Jan when the corals began to decline. If they had been, they could have stepped in and taken the corals back before so many of them died. And who knows just how many more of them would have died had Mr. Watson not alerted them to the situation.
As usual, I find myself now regretting having said anything. It was my hopes that this sort of thread would just burn out and become yet another bogus issue. Okay, Eric is satan himself, so what? What is the big deal?
oh wait, there is the matter of the concern for the corals. Gimme a break. Had this thread been on some militant conservation forum, it might be a suitable topic. But to have it being bantered about by a bunch of coral and fish killing hobbyists all in the name of "save the reef" is comical. The egos involved in trying to make a point or impress others is equaly as comical. Toss in a dose of gossip, well, a heavy dose, and what is being accomplished? Not a single thing, other than embarrassing myself by being a part of it, any part of it. Which I reget and will file it away under lessons learned.
You want to claim a concern for reefs? Then get rid of your aquarium and go out and actualy do something. But to sit in front of your computer while any number of corals are under threat by just being in your tank while preaching a concern for coral reefs is.........
Where is the concern and outrage when on average, a few thousand pounds of corals are killed by us on a monthly basis? If not more. Oh wait, those are indo-pacific corals and are not from YOUR reef. That makes it okay. If anyone wanted to feel pissed and concerned, it would be me, I see what this hobby does to the reefs on a daily basis, yet I don't come in here and raise hell with any of you do I ? I can't, because I keep corals in a tank as well.
The ONLY thing this entire thread, and anyone of you can claim with any credibility is that you are going after Eric and others, for reasons other than concern for a reef. Stop using that lame excuse and just admit that you are enjoying a witch hunt and gossip fest. Leave the corals out of it because you in no way can claim that right of concern. So what does that leave us as to a reason or call to arms?
Edited to add: Now, if everyone would be COMPLETELY honest with themselves as to their posting, discussing, gossiping, call it what you will, then this would never have been posted as a webpage, nor started as a thread. Remember now, COMPLETELY honest with yourself. If thats even possible. I have tried to do so, and have come clean with myself, hence the above rant. While I could kick back and claim my posting was soley based on the defense of a friend, that would be only a partial truth. For one, I would defend a friend even if he did wrong, I can forgive and forget and not worry myself about it. On the other hand, My ego also gets involved with a determination to be right, as well as having a bit of the "show off" that resides in every one of us. Any and all other claims made about having Eric's head because he is a leader, and blah blah blah only points to another egotistical lame excuse for ones own herd mentality. All of this is about your own motivations and needs. Again, not a single one of us can claim the moral high ground on any aspect of this so called discussion. It was, is, and will always be a self satisfying, egotistical gossip fest. I truly apologize for not seeing this within my own self and will steel myself from further mistakes.
For THE last time....see ya! I have a hobby to enjoy.
Chuck
oh wait, there is the matter of the concern for the corals. Gimme a break. Had this thread been on some militant conservation forum, it might be a suitable topic. But to have it being bantered about by a bunch of coral and fish killing hobbyists all in the name of "save the reef" is comical. The egos involved in trying to make a point or impress others is equaly as comical. Toss in a dose of gossip, well, a heavy dose, and what is being accomplished? Not a single thing, other than embarrassing myself by being a part of it, any part of it. Which I reget and will file it away under lessons learned.
You want to claim a concern for reefs? Then get rid of your aquarium and go out and actualy do something. But to sit in front of your computer while any number of corals are under threat by just being in your tank while preaching a concern for coral reefs is.........
Where is the concern and outrage when on average, a few thousand pounds of corals are killed by us on a monthly basis? If not more. Oh wait, those are indo-pacific corals and are not from YOUR reef. That makes it okay. If anyone wanted to feel pissed and concerned, it would be me, I see what this hobby does to the reefs on a daily basis, yet I don't come in here and raise hell with any of you do I ? I can't, because I keep corals in a tank as well.
The ONLY thing this entire thread, and anyone of you can claim with any credibility is that you are going after Eric and others, for reasons other than concern for a reef. Stop using that lame excuse and just admit that you are enjoying a witch hunt and gossip fest. Leave the corals out of it because you in no way can claim that right of concern. So what does that leave us as to a reason or call to arms?
Edited to add: Now, if everyone would be COMPLETELY honest with themselves as to their posting, discussing, gossiping, call it what you will, then this would never have been posted as a webpage, nor started as a thread. Remember now, COMPLETELY honest with yourself. If thats even possible. I have tried to do so, and have come clean with myself, hence the above rant. While I could kick back and claim my posting was soley based on the defense of a friend, that would be only a partial truth. For one, I would defend a friend even if he did wrong, I can forgive and forget and not worry myself about it. On the other hand, My ego also gets involved with a determination to be right, as well as having a bit of the "show off" that resides in every one of us. Any and all other claims made about having Eric's head because he is a leader, and blah blah blah only points to another egotistical lame excuse for ones own herd mentality. All of this is about your own motivations and needs. Again, not a single one of us can claim the moral high ground on any aspect of this so called discussion. It was, is, and will always be a self satisfying, egotistical gossip fest. I truly apologize for not seeing this within my own self and will steel myself from further mistakes.
For THE last time....see ya! I have a hobby to enjoy.
Chuck
- Status
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
