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sihaya":3flc2ba3 said:
are we on the same page yet?
All permits issued after the initial Navy permit would fall under the Navy permit. You can't tell the Navy they have to relocate only, and tell them a certain size, and tell the next person that applies for a permit to collect to help them selves.
If the Navy permit says relocate and nothing else, we have a problem.
If the Navy permit says relocate or take on vacation to Disneyland, all bets are off.
Sounds like she was told that reefsavers was some thing more than it was and she believed it.
You are in the hobby, you are a friend of Eric's. I would expect you to know exactly what it is.
I doubt if Lauri or anyone else involved with this even has a aquarium at home. Plus, it's human nature to believe someone when they present themselves as the chair of some organization like this.
StevenPro":3sjg84f2 said:
Like I said earlier...
In the permit application, though reef savers was never described as part of UH, I don't think it was ever aptly described as what it actually is either (a commercial distributor). This could obviously be confusing to FKNMS... especially when the corals are being taken by a representative of a university (and where grant money is up to fund the project). *Note:* I'm not at all suggesting that FKNMS was purposely mislead... all I'm saying is that I can see how they may have reasonably misunderstood. Of course, it's certainly reasonable to conclude that if they weren't sure, they should have asked for clarification and are thus at least partly to blame for their own confusion.
Even if the Navy permit says the Navy has to relocate to the open ocean all specimens over 20 cm, how are we to know that the sanctuary personel communicated this to Eric? There is no mention of it until nearly a year later. There is Lauri asking Eric to categorize what he took by species and size including over 20 cm as if that is no big deal as well as no one says anything when Eric submits his inventory including how many he took over 20 cm until nearly a year later.
Still don't matter.
All permits issued after the initial Navy permit would fall under the Navy permit.
Why lie about the inventory. They were numbered in baskets and there was already a inventory. What was taken was known. Besides, who would want them back, they conldn't be relocated after being in a pet warehouse.
Still don't matter. You are Eric's friend and can't seem to look past that.
The story is;
I think the story is that federally protected corals were taken from a government facility, corals that were designated to be relocated, under federal law, to meet the Navy's requirements, and no one wants to talk about it.
Eric is just collateral damage.
All permits issued after the initial Navy permit would fall under the Navy permit.
Why lie about the inventory. They were numbered in baskets and there was already a inventory. What was taken was known. Besides, who would want them back, they conldn't be relocated after being in a pet warehouse.
Still don't matter. You are Eric's friend and can't seem to look past that.
The story is;
I think the story is that federally protected corals were taken from a government facility, corals that were designated to be relocated, under federal law, to meet the Navy's requirements, and no one wants to talk about it.
Eric is just collateral damage.
StevenPro":16froysx said:
The initial Navy permit will have it spelled out.
Unless you are saying that it was never mentioned to Eric and some how he knew to apply for a permit but didn't know a thing that was going on and the whole time it wasn't mentioned, talked about, at all.
That even though it's the very reason he was issued a permit in the first place, no one ever discussed it, and Eric is not smart enough to have figured it out.
When you apply for a permit, under some one elses permit, the Navy, you know what permit you are applying under.
I am a friend of Eric, but that has nothing to do with it. This story does not add up.
I think we might agree though on one thing. I think Eric was made a scape goat for other peoples' errors. I don't think they instructed Eric about the 20 cm rule, if there ever was one. I don't think they read or understood Eric's permit application. And, I think they later became leary of having those corals at a commercial facility. Add to all that, the way things went bad between Eric and Reef Savers and you have a big mess.
I too though would not be comfortable with Atlantic corals being housed in the same facility as Indo-Pacific. I don't know the exact layout, but any idiot could potentially go from system to system with a wet arm and contaminate things. Plus, I could see how something could become aerosolized by air lifts or protein skimmers and move throughout the facility.
I think we might agree though on one thing. I think Eric was made a scape goat for other peoples' errors. I don't think they instructed Eric about the 20 cm rule, if there ever was one. I don't think they read or understood Eric's permit application. And, I think they later became leary of having those corals at a commercial facility. Add to all that, the way things went bad between Eric and Reef Savers and you have a big mess.
I too though would not be comfortable with Atlantic corals being housed in the same facility as Indo-Pacific. I don't know the exact layout, but any idiot could potentially go from system to system with a wet arm and contaminate things. Plus, I could see how something could become aerosolized by air lifts or protein skimmers and move throughout the facility.
and the reason to claim that reefsavers was the CDHC (Coral Disease and Health Consortium) facility would be?
I though Eric claimed to work with coral diseases, was the chair of the CDHC, that he created.
You would think that person would know better, wouldn't you?
Again, you do not apply for a secondary permit to collect, without knowing the stipulations of the primary permit you are applying under.
You know the rules of your permit, because your permit falls under the first permit.
I though Eric claimed to work with coral diseases, was the chair of the CDHC, that he created.
You would think that person would know better, wouldn't you?
Again, you do not apply for a secondary permit to collect, without knowing the stipulations of the primary permit you are applying under.
You know the rules of your permit, because your permit falls under the first permit.
StevenPro":zi63bozh said:
As you've pointed out, he still works with SECORE and no enforcement action was brought against him... so how was he made the scapegoat? Considering the apparent magnitude of this, you'd think that any designated scapegoat would not have gone so unscathed.
I agree that it appears as if several possible errors were made by several different parties. However, I don't see that any one person was burdened with the blame and consequences of them all. I don't even think that's being done here...
in one of the PDFs, is states that "reef savers" stop caring for the
coral during a time period.
http://www.opportunitylost.org/DC_250160.pdf this pdf.
what does it mean to stop caring for them?
so "Reef savers" is just another chop shop for corals? frag em, grow em,
and sell em?
interesting thread.
coral during a time period.
http://www.opportunitylost.org/DC_250160.pdf this pdf.
what does it mean to stop caring for them?
so "Reef savers" is just another chop shop for corals? frag em, grow em,
and sell em?
interesting thread.
StevenPro":3on6gwqv said:
I'm not afraid to say that I don't agree with that at all.
I do not think that the Chair of the CDHC, that claims to have applied and been awarded many permits in the past, does not know the permitting process.
I do not think that someone who claims to work in coral diseases and also the pet industry, does not know what a pet warehouse looks like.
The error's were made by not checking out the stories the Chair of the CDHC told. If that makes him a scape goat.
fcmatt-
Personally... I'm not sure why reef savers was left to care for the corals in the first place. They're not researchers. They're not officially associated with UH or the CHDC. Why was caring for the corals left to their responsibility? That seems like an awful lot of work, time and expense for people who are not "official" participants in the research or project. Unfortunately, the documents just don't provide much info on that at all.
Personally... I'm not sure why reef savers was left to care for the corals in the first place. They're not researchers. They're not officially associated with UH or the CHDC. Why was caring for the corals left to their responsibility? That seems like an awful lot of work, time and expense for people who are not "official" participants in the research or project. Unfortunately, the documents just don't provide much info on that at all.
Billy Causey to Eric, Let me explain that we would still not know about these problems if Craig Watson had not contacted us.
I'm sure no one knew that reef savers was a pet warehouse.
From the permit
Corals will be placed into large facilities at Reef Savers, Inc., Houston, Texas. This facility is the site of the CDHC culture program to establish model systems and species for research.
I suppose model systems to a coral disease researcher and the Chair of the CDHC means comingling Atlantic and Pacific species.
I'm sure no one knew that reef savers was a pet warehouse.
From the permit
Corals will be placed into large facilities at Reef Savers, Inc., Houston, Texas. This facility is the site of the CDHC culture program to establish model systems and species for research.
I suppose model systems to a coral disease researcher and the Chair of the CDHC means comingling Atlantic and Pacific species.
Eric broke the conditions of his permit.
He was given a permit to collect for one reason.
The reason was not to take them to any place in particular.
The reason was to establish model systems and species for research.
Placing the corals in a pet warehouse, exposing them to Pacific corals, going on trips and neglecting them, was not the intentions of his permit. No one would expect that would be the way to establish a model system for coral disease research on Caribbean corals.
It would be not be what you would expect from the Chair of the Coral Disease and Health Consortium or someone who claims to work with coral diseases.
The court of public opinion can be damning really quickly. The information that has been put forward so far seems to suggest that Eric did not follow proper protocol of his permit. What is it called if someone doesnt follow the collection permit they are given? Poaching. I dont want to call him a poacher in public but I know that is what I am thinking right now. How a person that can claim to be a marine conservationist and then go and pull a stunt like this is beyond me. Pressing this issue is the only way we are going to find out what truly happened. The reason that this was shut down on RC is the same reason that Steven Pro is being so defensive.....they all know each other. They may not be buddy buddies but "they" are the top echelon that control the flow of information down to us shlumbs. Steven you don't have to hold his water for him, Eric is a big boy and should speak for himself. I find it curious why Eric has not responded. I have lost great confidence in Eric in the past couple of years. The Elegance study (I even remember him asking for donations of healthy specimens, probably would have wound up at the dubiously named Reef Savers, I also wonder how many people he received corals from), the salt study, both not completed and never talked about. I pray that I am wrong about him, but at this point with the information we have I have to call a spade a spade (quitely to myself of course 
)
)its my understanding the erics original permit was issued so he could dive the canal and collect any species he saw fit, that would include any species of any size, thats why it did not specify size, but due to "logistics" he was not able to dive and collect his own, so he asked lauri for special permission to go into the lab and collect the corals that did not meet the navys requirments for relocation, any specimens that were less than 20cm. but with lauri gone, he saw it as his duty to take what ever specimens he felt he needed.
then he went on to houston, obviously contaminating them, not doing a lick of research of disease, and at the same time, robbing the wild of these protected species that would have been relocated after the navy construction.
since LCOS coined the phrase, i think poaching fits rather well, he basically stole species that were destined for the wild.
the NOAA may have made many mistakes, mainly trusting this young man, and they sould be held responsible, but Eric, being the guru that he is, really should have known better than to do every single thing that he did, each step of his was way out of line, and i hope one day justice is served. everyone had a foot in this stink hole, and alot of people are accountable, but i feel the worst about him, and it isnt because i dont like the man, its simply because he should be setting an example since he is so loved, and in the public eye of the hobby, and he should really really know better.
then he went on to houston, obviously contaminating them, not doing a lick of research of disease, and at the same time, robbing the wild of these protected species that would have been relocated after the navy construction.
since LCOS coined the phrase, i think poaching fits rather well, he basically stole species that were destined for the wild.
the NOAA may have made many mistakes, mainly trusting this young man, and they sould be held responsible, but Eric, being the guru that he is, really should have known better than to do every single thing that he did, each step of his was way out of line, and i hope one day justice is served. everyone had a foot in this stink hole, and alot of people are accountable, but i feel the worst about him, and it isnt because i dont like the man, its simply because he should be setting an example since he is so loved, and in the public eye of the hobby, and he should really really know better.
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