A Great Opportunity for the Community to Give Back

[Josh]

This is a great conversation. I think people are naturally questioning the project but it is nice to see that we can openly discuss it as a group and hopefully give some good feedback to the organizers.

 

[clarionreef]

"steve u have 12 posts on the board ..."

But,
I don't leave anywhere near Manhattan.... or even New York.
However, I do have 2,800 posts on Reefs.org. Mostly educating on this very same thing for a number of years now. Can I roll some of them over to here?
Like Gresham said....the number of places now you can spend your lunch break looking at or borrowing from your good nite sleep are so many.
I just heard about this place because Joe Russo was the first to offer a chance to raise some netting funds for the training and I thought it would be a great idea to link us up beyond our regular turf...and get the hobby interested in ground level activity.
Its good to hear about other tibes, other places...Manhattan, New Guinea...wherever!
Steve

 

[ellebelle]

seems like a big "sell" to me, just for the humane collection of a "pristine" reef...why? ...now i dont want to be hypocritical and say i would not purchase from this region and im sure the effort is honest, but why should i or we donate capital for some1 else to make huge profits in the long run...and if any1 is offended too bad, its a forum to discuss all aspects...you want money, then u have to pony up the answers and they better be good.
is there a direct benefit to MR members, not just to give MR a sponsorship?

wheels seem to always fall off a bandwagon...

Mike, why does there have to be a particular material gain to Manhattan Reefs specifically? Should this project succeed, the entire fish/aquarium industry will benefit by:
a) having more/rarer fish;
b) having non-cyanide caught fish;
c) having a renewable resource for these fish because the coral that they fish live in won't be destroyed?

Isn't that enough of an incentive to contribute? And please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my impression that MR has not been the only group approached about contributions (but we have been the most generous.)

Additionally, your money also helps to put in place a sustainable industry that will employ people in different villages in PNG, enabling them to make a living. While I know this isn't an incentive for most people, it's at least a nice thing that would make your donation even more worthwhile when coupled with the previous three incentives.

As Steve mentioned, this is a non-profit organization who is trying to set up a system where a pristine reef will not be exploited by those who are looking to make money. Quite honestly, the best conservation work is done by small NGOs with small amounts of money who use the money well and get the job done - and ultimately, I view this project as a community-based conservation effort as it is working to benefit both the people in the communities as well as preserving the reef for all to enjoy. (Its set-up is similar to some of the conservation projects that ultimately protect rainforest hardwoods by strictly regulated selective logging by peoples living in the area.)

Just my $0.02. I am still firmly on the bandwagon - even more so having met with Steve and having seen some of his images and plans for the PNG project.

Looking forward to getting the information on where donations will be collected.

 

[Slamajamajama]

lissa who benefits...the village?!? ur naive if u think any1 benefits other than the consumer and mostly the dealer, whomever that may be...
oh and hun, MR dosent do anything unless theres something in it for MR ie; content, sponsership, national recognition etc.

Randy i appreciate u wanting them to be part of MR that u want to coddle them like a newborn but they can obviously speak for themselves and quiet poignantly..all for that "content" pfft..

and steve..u sound desperate, another red flag

 

[ellebelle]

lissa who benefits...the village?!? ur naive if u think any1 benefits other than the consumer and mostly the dealer, whomever that may be...
oh and hun, MR dosent do anything unless theres something in it for MR ie; content, sponsership, national recognition etc.

It is in the best interest of MR to support the project because it ultimately benefits you as a consumer. If that's not good enough for you, don't contribute.

I am not an idiot and I don't appreciate being patronized. I have a graduate level degree in a field where I've had to take multiple courses in conservation and ecology. Furthermore, I have traveled in poor areas of third world countries and have first hand experience with the mindsets of people who live near these kind of resources and the corruption in governments. I have seen many conservation efforts of greater magnitude fail spectacularly and degenerate into full-scale environmental exploitation for profit. I am extremely cynical about any project that tries to benefit consumers and the environment and 90% of the time, the environment loses as more and more people are drawn to a potential economic opportunity.

However, I think this one can work because there are experienced people running it, it seems to be well planned, it's small in scale, and they have the cooperation of the government.

If - IF - this project goes through in the way that it was explained to me, there is a potential for everyone to benefit - consumers, exporters, fishermen, and the coral reef.

 

[Slamajamajama]

oh brother...

 

[clarionreef]

"...and steve..u sound desperate, another red flag ..."

To who?
We have an approved budget of 1.3 million to run the project X three years and I just got paid myself for this month. We're doing fine, thank you.
Offering the hobby "buy-in plan" is as much for the hobby to participate as it is for us to save a bit on the budget.
The reform remedies have traditionally not involved hobby groups as they should have.
Of all the errors we are looking to avoid, ignoring the hobbyists is just one of them.
I invite hobbyists inside the tent...for the benefit of the hobby and for it to have a right to have a say so.
Donating to things you believe in however, is not compulsury.
Steve

Manhattan Reefs

Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

 

[Slamajamajama]

then u dont need us, have the mods delete thread and then u can just add your vast knowledge of reefing to this awesome reefing community

 

[clarionreef]

fearing to believe again

Fixed on the budget revelation, you missed the rest of the post.

"The reform remedies have traditionally not involved hobby groups as they should have.
Of all the errors we are looking to avoid, ignoring the hobbyists is just one of them.
I invite hobbyists inside the tent...for the benefit of the hobby and for it to have a right to have a say so.
Donating to things you say you believe in however, is not compulsury."
In fact, if you are persuasive and if a group of people agree with you on things, it doesn't have to happen.
Doing nothing seems a pretty safe position...until the hobby becomes still more and more restrictive.
The lack of pro-active agendas that enable a constructive approach to preventing the EVER INCREASING RESTRICTIONS on the trade is not a safe position at all.
The better self defense is no doubt to engage in positive ways and to be part of the solutions and not the problem.
There is no credibility in criticism without better, alternative proposals. My suspicions are born of experience on the real reef and working with real fish collectors.
The better alternative is exactly the point here.

Hesitation and cynicism are useful useful in dealing with phoneys and con artists. The challenge is to develop the discriminating wisdom to tell the difference between fraud and the real thing..
Buying a car, a house, getting married? Oh my gosh...how do we know whats the right choice? No choice?
Afraid of being taken, hoodwinked, bamboozled?
I hear ya....and I'm sorry about who ever burned you before...but it wasn't me.
Steve

 

[prattreef]

3) What is/will be done to insure that the operation is carried out responsibly into the future.
We will ride herd on them for 3 years straight. We have veto cabability for any totally untrainable knuckleheads who break the coral in collecting.
But seriously. There are few bad students...only bad teachers.
The entire permitting scheme with the government is linked to the training and the passing the training.
Fishes will be linked to catch totals and if the TACS [Total Allowable Catch] is reached, the collection of said fishes are disallowed until the next year.
Surveys and monitoring are a three times a year component to check the impacts...if any on the reefs.
The greatest assurance is an honestly and competently run program...of actual, genuine monitoring and training to prevent the result of incompetent, office based, city based, "theoretical" programs that have predictably failed before.
Although money is always an issue it is not the only issue and not to the obssessive extent that it has been with previous non aquarium groups that have lorded over the industrys response to reform for some 20 years now.
We are mainly fish folks!:grouphug:


For us naive, easily duped, do-gooding coddlers who actually want to know more about the project, can you elaborate on:
1) How and who the surveys and thrice yearly monitorings will take place. What is being checked for? How is it being checked for? etc.

2) How will the business structure be set up so local villages and fishermen do reap the benefits?

3) Why is it so important for hobbyists to be involved from the outset? In what way did leaving hobbyists out of prior reform efforts help doom them to failure? RD

 

[bad coffee]

Also, Steve, can you outline how this collection for netting will be different from all other 'net collections' in the past.(Mary's, Reefcentral's, MAC, ect.) How can we be sure all the money we donate is going towards the nets?

How is the netting going to be doled out to the villages? How do we know the villages will continue to use them after the training sessions?
(I heard the answers once when I had dinner with Steve. I'm posting the questions for the benefit of the forum)

And just to clarify, MR itself hasn't agreed to donate/be part of the donations. Currently it's just the few members that can see what benefit there will be to the reefs.

Mike, if you doubt Steve's intentions, Do a search on reefs.org for the user 'cortez marine' make sure you check the "industry behind the hobby" forum.

 

[Slamajamajama]

i think that this Utopian process is admirable, and im sure benificial for the capture and SALE of fish/corals from that region. I also feel as its been driven home is the fact that your dedication to this is honest.
but my question is ..
why? why disturb this environment for money.
whos making the profits and plz dont try to tell me the villagers will be reaping most of the rewards of this. (i kno none of my business) my point is is it worth the impact of this prestine reef...(even my greatest efforts when i hike to "leave no trace" is almost impossible), even with the best of harvesting techniques..i may have to go, as suggested to review the bigger body of work on this...but with your copy paste of paragraphs of err ummm info to every question I wonder if MR/MR members are donating to a time share ....instead we should be donating to a marine biologists that is ACTUALLY is doing research to rebuild wat the world has already lost.

why cant we get on board with that instead of worrying if our pockets (vendors) get filled ($) or our tanks have these exotic species...believe me when the almighty dollar is involved the lines get severely blurred

 

[clarionreef]

absolute power

1) How and who the surveys and thrice yearly monitorings will take place. What is being checked for? How is it being checked for? etc.
The survey team is comprised of...three Filipinos from the old MAC/REEFCHECK experience....and two from the University in Port Moresby who are also working within Fisheries.
They survey the reefs for fish and invert counts w/ 100 meter transect lines prior to collection...then they keep track of the same reefs three times a year to monitor impacts.

2) How will the business structure be set up so local villages and fishermen do reap the benefits?
We start the pricing structure off to insure that the divers prices are fair in the world market sense...ie similar to Bali and Filipino pricing. THIS WAY BUYERS CANNOT BE CAVALIER AND EXPLOITIVE W/ THE PRICING TO DIVERS.
Since the fish abundance is so high in their areas and since they don't run long range multi-day boat trips burning thru gasoline all day, they get to keep a better % then other divers. The lack of killing coral as a methodology will keep the fishes near home for good and we will finally get to see the sustainable refilling of fishes that many of us already have in cleaner collecting places.
Fishers will elect their own spokesman and these guys will interact more with the buyers in Port Moresby DIRECTLY. We will teach these guys all they need to know to market to Moresby buyers without middlemen....giving them the midlemens cut. Filipinos would be so jealous!
THEN AGAIN, FILIPINOS RUINED THEIR NEARBY REEFS W/ CROWBARS AND CYANIDE IMPOVERISHING THEMSELVES FUTHER.

3) Why is it so important for hobbyists to be involved from the outset? In what way did leaving hobbyists out of prior reform efforts help doom them to failure? RD
As I have said before, the other groups left em out and owed em nothing. They also ignored em and engineered a huge history of mistakes that aquarium savy people wouldn't make.
I AM AQUARIUM PEOPLE 100%...but being from a Democratic tradition, I think the more witnesses and participants you have in an important endeavor, the better.
You always need some peers around and people of equal intelligence and similar experience as possible to avoid the excesses of absolute power and detachment.

 

[Slamajamajama]

1) How and who the surveys and thrice yearly monitorings will take place. What is being checked for? How is it being checked for? etc.
The survey team is comprised of...three Filipinos from the old MAC/REEFCHECK experience....and two from the University in Port Moresby who are also working within Fisheries.
They survey the reefs for fish and invert counts w/ 100 meter transect lines prior to collection...then they keep track of the same reefs three times a year to monitor impacts.

2) How will the business structure be set up so local villages and fishermen do reap the benefits?
We start the pricing structure off to insure that the divers prices are fair in the world market sense...ie similar to Bali and Filipino pricing. THIS WAY BUYERS CANNOT BE CAVALIER AND EXPLOITIVE W/ THE PRICING TO DIVERS.
Since the fish abundance is so high in their areas and since they don't run long range multi-day boat trips burning thru gasoline all day, they get to keep a better % then other divers. The lack of killing coral as a methodology will keep the fishes near home for good and we will finally get to see the sustainable refilling of fishes that many of us already have in cleaner collecting places.
Fishers will elect their own spokesman and these guys will interact more with the buyers in Port Moresby DIRECTLY. We will teach these guys all they need to know to market to Moresby buyers without middlemen....giving them the midlemens cut. Filipinos would be so jealous!
THEN AGAIN, FILIPINOS RUINED THEIR NEARBY REEFS W/ CROWBARS AND CYANIDE IMPOVERISHING THEMSELVES FUTHER.

3) Why is it so important for hobbyists to be involved from the outset? In what way did leaving hobbyists out of prior reform efforts help doom them to failure? RD
As I have said before, the other groups left em out and owed em nothing. They also ignored em and engineered a huge history of mistakes that aquarium savy people wouldn't make.
I AM AQUARIUM PEOPLE 100%...but being from a Democratic tradition, I think the more witnesses and participants you have in an important endeavor, the better.
You always need some peers around and people of equal intelligence and similar experience as possible to avoid the excesses of absolute power and detachment.

im still not all warm and fuzzy about all this, but I wish you the best of luck on this venture...Happy New Year.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

And how pray tell was that not on topic? Topic is the project is it not? Do you want Steve to post his stuff for replies in other threads? I am not goint to start a thread to reply to post in another thread, that's a great way for it never to be seen or replied to.

I was not directing my request to everyone in the thread. It is a simple request, those who are making this thread go in directions that are off topic should keep it on track by directing their comments in another thread. I think the conversation is a good one and it should stay on track. Thanks for your input good luck with your endeavors.

Again lets keep the thread on track please.

 

[clarionreef]

second set of questions

Also, Steve, can you outline how this collection for netting will be different from all other 'net collections' in the past.
The right combination of handnets and barrier nets are never given out together at commercially competent trainings.
Why?
Besides casting aspersions on people who were in charge of doing it wrong in the past, how else can I answer?
How can you answer for the obvious reason why commercial field training by non field people doesn't ever work out to well?

Since they did even the basics worng, where does one start?
I am not them and will be the only training director who is also a commercial fish collector and critic of the past 20 year tradition of fake trainings by unqualified people..

How is the netting going to be doled out to the villages? How do we know the villages will continue to use them after the training
sessions?
Nettings are disbursed after the classroom instruction, usually under a mango tree. We cut and sew them up as a part of the training. As they have no other fish collecting tradition and because we get to them first, they have nothing inferior to fall back on.
Net collecting catches more fish then cyanide. This fact alone commands allegience. To city people and incompetent, would-be and wannabie collectors of fish, cyanide seems more efficient. Like vise grips are more efficient tools to repair a carbuerator...until you get a real set of wrenches.
There is not a backsliding experience when divers are trained right and supplied right from the beginning.
There is a backsliding experience when the divers are trained poorly and not supplied with the nets and/or the right nets..
I cannot make this traditional mistake.

 

[clarionreef]

Rofl

why disturb this environment for money.
Aready answered this. The fishers work their own areas already. Now, since many of their larger fish are wiped out in their areas, tropicals are in unnatural abundance at times. Tropicals are the best resource these people have to work with.
whos making the profits and plz dont try to tell me the villagers will be reaping most of the rewards of this.
Most? Did you just sneak in the word most of the profits?
Profit works it way up the chain and may reside at every level.
First divers, then buyers ie. exporters, then airlines [sigh], then importers, then retailers then you walk in the door.

i may have to go, as suggested to review the bigger body of work on this...
What? And not just shoot from the hip?
but with your copy paste ...
Huh? where did that come from?

of paragraphs of err ummm info to every question I wonder if MR/MR members are donating to a time share ....
and that?
instead we should be donating to a marine biologists...
There are heaps all over the place studying nudibranchs and what not. You want study now? Not surveys or trainings?

that is ACTUALLY is doing research to rebuild wat the world has already lost.
Research into "wat it lost?":biglaugh:
???

why cant we get on board with that instead of worrying if our pockets (vendors) get filled ($) or our tanks have these exotic species...believe me when the almighty ..
?????????????:tongue1:
OK Gresham...ya got me !
Its you writing this stuff right??
Comon, fess up!:Hydrogen:
ROFL!
Steve

 

[House of Laughter]

Steve,

All I have to say is that MY money can go to you shopping at the malls in PNG for whatever you want - go crazy with yourself and enjoy it. :tub:

It's plain as day to me how this works -

US - or - Commercial - I say US first and let the villagers make money, exporters make money, vendors make money and reefers get the animals in a healthy way so that less die off in our tanks further creating a demand for more - better than "leaving the pristine reef" to someone else for blasting the $h1t out of them and mass exporting, exploiting the local resources and getting it to us (as reefers not vendors) in an unhealthy way.

Questions should be answered, yes, and you've done well for this reefer -

there is talk of a visit from MR members, I'd join you in the lap of luxury you'll be living while there in a heartbeat - please send us pictures of the lavish accommodations you have while completing this project.

Good luck :biggrin:

House

 

[ellebelle]

Steve:

A point of clarification -

Are you one going to one of the exporters of fish from PNG?

 

[clarionreef]

"Are you one going to one of the exporters of fish from PNG?"
Why, let me think....er...no.
I may be called upon to consult however between them and the villages.
My heart is w/ the villages and not the business side. But, I do relize that the business side will not provide income for villagers if the sustained business activity is not there.
Steve