A Great Opportunity for the Community to Give Back

[GreshamH]

It ain't personal. He was just waking us up after New Years.

A few million hobbyist never asked for cyanide fish?
How did they get here with this issue being so public for decades now?
Even people who don't have aquariums have heard of it!
But its true, when the retailer says..."Oh that, they solved that years ago"...the plausible deniability is there and is apparently good enough for everyone.
A few million consumers of shrimp, wild salmon, tuna and sea turtles never asked for depletion and destruction either...they never do. They just want to consume, buy and deny.
Isn't that the way the system works?

The numbers taken by the Japanese are not small and not driven by science but a corruption of it.
The Macaw tribe in Neah Bay takes small numbers of whales...ie. 1 or 2 or 3. Thats not the Japanese commercial fleet at all.
I've been to Neah Bay...not much to do there. Few jobs ...too far for a casino!
Pehaps the traditional whaling permits should be bought out.

The legalization of small numbers of say, wonderpus allow breeders to have a shot at producing them in captivity. You know this already and are being a smarty-pants.:spin:

Asking egg heads ie. knowledgeable reefsfolks to contribute to a list of inverts to slow down on or ban is not driving sustainablity but contributing to the development of a program that is.
The mass market that drives the reef trade is hardly represented by the smaller elite whose brain trusts we respect and want to tap into.

Go hang out at the fish section of any of the thousands of petcos and see where we are not going for suggestions.

Comon, what else ya got?
Happy New Years ...
Steve

Wasn't the Macaw tribe the one that use AK's to hunt the first whale years back and sunk it with out capturing it?

We've been asked to keep this one on track Steve. Let's respect Jhales wishes and we just talk on the phone and email like we always do, or take it to RDO They just want info about the netting project it in this thread. You, as well as me, sure don't see how this is not connected, but we've spent a very long time on the issue and understand it far better then 99.99% of the trade.

One thing though, I have it it a thousand times from hobbyist and retailers alike that they "thought" the problem had been taken care of years ago. They aren't aware the efforts of many have failled. You are, I am, they aren't I have global contact with hobbyists and LFS and I hear the same tune over and over. Being I know the details I eduacate them as I go along, but I am just one man in an ocean of people

 

[prattreef]

One thing though, I have it it a thousand times from hobbyist and retailers alike that they "thought" the problem had been taken care of years ago. They aren't aware the efforts of many have failled. You are, I am, they aren't I have global contact with hobbyists and LFS and I hear the same tune over and over. Being I know the details I eduacate them as I go along, but I am just one man in an ocean of people

This is something I would like to see fully discussed ( calmly )here on MR, but I suggest a different thread. RD

 

[ShaunW]

Let's respect Jhales wishes and we just talk on the phone and email like we always do, or take it to RDO They just want info about the netting project it in this thread. You, as well as me, sure don't see how this is not connected, but we've spent a very long time on the issue and understand it far better then 99.99% of the trade.

Hi gentlemen, .

I am finding your posts extremely enlightening and am enjoying reading your discussion and would be saddened if you discontinued it.

 

[clarionreef]

See...
You know this already and are being a smarty-pants.:spin:

 

[GreshamH]

Good use of the smilies Steve Your getting better at using them :lol:

I know more can come out of our friendly banter then can arise from most questions asked by posters, but let's respect what Jonathan and Randy have asked of us

Tell you what though, it's kinda cool to see Solbby posting in this thread

 

[GreshamH]

This is something I would like to see fully discussed ( calmly )here on MR, but I suggest a different thread. RD

oops, I didn't put the word "heard" as in "I have heard it a thousand times"

Unfortunately I do not have the time nor bandwidth to start and carry on such a thread right now One thing that would be a great way to let the readers know more would be to ask Steve for an article (or series of articles) on the subject for the MR magazine

 

[KathyC]

Let's see if we can bring this back to the specifics of the PNG project (yes I see the relevance and interest and import of the current discussion), but I fear lots of others don't. So, let me ask a few questions that have been asked of me in private:

1) Whose idea was this? The government of PNG seeking to open a MO fishery and seeking to do it right, or were they approached by MO types seeking to move into a new area and do it right?

2) Why not leave a pristine reef alone? or Does it make sense to start a collection venture in a "pristine" area with no history of collection?

3) What is/will be done to insure that the operation is carried out responsibly into the future.

4) Who are the stake holders/ adminstrators etc. besides yourself.

Please answer these in as straightforward and detailed manner as you can-- no need to rehash the failures of the past --- just the on the ground facts and future intentions.

Thanks. Randy

I'm not sure if this post was missed with the bantering, but I'd also like to know the answers to this.
As many of us here are quite interested in the work you are doing and following the thread, along with donating funds for the cause, I have to say I was surprised to have not receive a response from Graham a week or so ago when I wrote to ask where I should send my donation to.
Perhaps an answer to that could also be posted here?
Thxs

 

[clarionreef]

questions

1) Whose idea was this? The government of PNG seeking to open a MO fishery and seeking to do it right, or were they approached by MO types seeking to move into a new area and do it right?

The government accepted a proposal by Eco Ez to open it up so long as its done right with government oversight. To this end, even the EcoEz staff offices are in the fisheries building.

2) Why not leave a pristine reef alone? or Does it make sense to start a collection venture in a "pristine" area with no history of collection?
The local people already fish the reefs, already hear about live food cyanide fishing and already hear one scheme after another to use their reefs.
If they don't benefit from it, others try to ...so this project works with them directly and develops their capacity to manage the thing themselves.
Trainers will also be generated from PNG and no Filipino collectors or foreigners will ever be allowed to work in the place of a local as is the case in Tonga and Vanuatu where most of the fish collectors are Filipinos that I trained before.

3) What is/will be done to insure that the operation is carried out responsibly into the future.
We will ride herd on them for 3 years straight. We have veto cabability for any totally untrainable knuckleheads who break the coral in collecting.
But seriously. There are few bad students...only bad teachers.
The entire permitting scheme with the government is linked to the training and the passing the training.
Fishes will be linked to catch totals and if the TACS [Total Allowable Catch] is reached, the collection of said fishes are disallowed until the next year.
Surveys and monitoring are a three times a year component to check the impacts...if any on the reefs.
The greatest assurance is an honestly and competently run program...of actual, genuine monitoring and training to prevent the result of incompetent, office based, city based, "theoretical" programs that have predictably failed before.
Although money is always an issue it is not the only issue and not to the obssessive extent that it has been with previous non aquarium groups that have lorded over the industrys response to reform for some 20 years now.
We are mainly fish folks!:grouphug:
4) Who are the stake holders/ adminstrators etc. besides yourself.

The EcoEz org has a president ; David Vosleer, an ast director and accountant; Tony Carmel,
Reef monitoring and Survey team run by Renabte Ruz and the training team run by me with my old comrades in training long ago. MeMe Purgatorio fresh from managing a Tonga export facility and divers for a year and a half now and another; Eddie Abulag running collections in Vanuatu.
Locally the survey team has a lady reef diver Selma and her counterpart, Phillip. They anchor the local team and help build it up more.
Government fishery extention officers are enlisted to provide legal and official entry into the collecting villages that want and need the businesses very much.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Perhaps the funds are best collected by the club .
Then the clubs wields the bigger donation at one time and bargains with its power.
When its all collected...soon....
It can then be sent a to the hdqrs of EcoEz in Alexandria Virginia.
They reciept and account for everything there...and will write a nice thank you letter as will I .
Then....the images from the field can come forward soon after the first training begins!
Steve

 

[GreshamH]

I'm not sure if this post was missed with the bantering, but I'd also like to know the answers to this.
As many of us here are quite interested in the work you are doing and following the thread, along with donating funds for the cause, I have to say I was surprised to have not receive a response from Graham a week or so ago when I wrote to ask where I should send my donation to.
Perhaps an answer to that could also be posted here?
Thxs

It's Gresham I have no connection to the NGO other then knowing the players and program. You should have directed your question to Steve I'm sorry if you posted it and I didn't say that. If you PM'd me/ IM'd me, Blackberrried me, it most likely will never get a reply as I really try not to use those and do everything via email only for record keeping sake. If you did email me, it either got caught up in our spam server or lost into vaporspace. With +15K spams a day, our email server does on occasion nab non spam as well.

EDIT: you sent me the PM saturday the 29th. It's still sitting there unread.

 

[prattreef]

1)
2) Why not leave a pristine reef alone? or Does it make sense to start a collection venture in a "pristine" area with no history of collection?
The local people already fish the reefs, already hear about live food cyanide fishing and already hear one scheme after another to use their reefs.
If they don't benefit from it, others try to ...so this project works with them directly and develops their capacity to manage the thing themselves.
Trainers will also be generated from PNG and no Filipino collectors or foreigners will ever be allowed to work in the place of a local as is the case in Tonga and Vanuatu where most of the fish collectors are Filipinos that I trained before. Steve

So are you saying that there is impending intrusion on these "Pristine Reefs" from other reef related industries and their very damaging practices? If so, what has kept them at bay all these years and what has changed to allow them to become a threat?

It makes perfect sense to provide local populations with sound economic alternatives that are truly locally controlled, but something must have changed if this hasn't been an issue until now.

RD

 

[prattreef]

1) Whose idea was this? The government of PNG seeking to open a MO fishery and seeking to do it right, or were they approached by MO types seeking to move into a new area and do it right?

The government accepted a proposal by Eco Ez to open it up so long as its done right with government oversight. To this end, even the EcoEz staff offices are in the fisheries building. Steve

1) Clearly, Government oversight and regulation of such a project is critically important to its success, but in the past, in other areas, Government oversight has become Gov't. corruption which has helped undermine other efforts. What is different in the PNG scenario?

2) What is Eco EZ's mission? For profit or philanthropic? RD

 

[Slamajamajama]

seems like a big "sell" to me, just for the humane collection of a "pristine" reef...why? ...now i dont want to be hypocritical and say i would not purchase from this region and im sure the effort is honest, but why should i or we donate capital for some1 else to make huge profits in the long run...and if any1 is offended too bad, its a forum to discuss all aspects...you want money, then u have to pony up the answers and they better be good.
is there a direct benefit to MR members, not just to give MR a sponsorship?

wheels seem to always fall off a bandwagon...

 

[clarionreef]

anyone wanna be an exporter? anyone?

"So are you saying that there is impending intrusion on these "Pristine Reefs" from other reef related industries and their very damaging practices? If so, what has kept them at bay all these years and what has changed to allow them to become a threat?"

Civilization is coming ...civilation is coming!
Now that Papua New Guinea has been a tourist destination for jet set divers ...a mining and timber country and a lobster and tuna country....for quite some time.... the experience with world commerce has helped open the eyes of a new generation of educated local people and they are driving PNG to lot of places quickly.
This momentum is building and if you want to keep it clean, you have to imprint people on better, sustainable ways from the very beginning.

Pristine reefs do exist there to be sure, but thats away from the villages for the most part and beyond where the village fishers can even go.
Why?
Because each village has its own territorial limit and cannot infringe on the neighboring villages reefs. Each village area has a collection management plan that forbids collecting beyond the boundary anyway.
Unlike the Philippine and Indonesian examples, [ where everyones mindset on this stuff comes from] the traditional village boundaries extent into the ocean in PNG limiting fishers to the finite square miles in their own back yards which must be taken care of so not to suffer depletion and destruction of the more advanced collecting societies.
Cyanide and coral destruction would be worse here as there would be no passage to other peoples reefs or to those pristine ones.

What we really have is a "pristine system" that can and should be spread to other countries. Especially countries where they have made a mockery of their own fisheries sector, laws and so called management schemes.
The for profit part of this is for the exporters to make whoever they may be...so long as they operate within the laws we take part in creating , monitoring and if need be revoking.
The law against ruining corals to collect will be a new mandate...a new standard that everything plays off of. Everyone in the chain will be guilty as the fishers contract and collect for the exporter who is willing to buy their fish and help set them up. Fishers and the exporter will work it more like in most countries where they depend on each other and not in the wild open flea market system of the Philippines and Indo.
It is the actualization of the oft theorized vertical integration of the chain of custody. Ie. staff divers working for and with the buyer who must work for and with the collector.
Coral breaking and poisoning threatens the permits upon which he activity depends and the exporter will have to work to keep his staff clean as well.
Anyone wanna be an exporter? anyone?
We at Eco Ez are a non profit org working as consultants for the government. We don't sell fish.

Steve

 

[KathyC]

It's Gresham I have no connection to the NGO other then knowing the players and program. You should have directed your question to Steve I'm sorry if you posted it and I didn't say that. If you PM'd me/ IM'd me, Blackberrried me, it most likely will never get a reply as I really try not to use those and do everything via email only for record keeping sake. If you did email me, it either got caught up in our spam server or lost into vaporspace. With +15K spams a day, our email server does on occasion nab non spam as well.

EDIT: you sent me the PM saturday the 29th. It's still sitting there unread.

Sorry about getting your name wrong Gresham
I didn't realize you didn't have a formal connection to the program especially since you have been so helpful in expanding the knowledge here regarding it's mission.

I appreciate your response and the clarification that Steve has provided regarding the collection of the funding the MR members have offered. The purpose of my request was to make it easier for members to donate, give you guys a bump with a post and thereby showing support for this project. Looks like that backfired...

Perhaps Randy (? hint - hint) can make the arrangements for where MR members should send donations?

..and Gresham (woo-hoo..got it right this time!) that is a serious overload of spam. I feel for 'ya!

 

[clarionreef]

Mountain reef
I am far more suspicious, cynical and jaded on phoney non-profit scams then you will ever be.
Ask around!
I have seen 4-5 groups skim money for this kind of thing since 1981...[ subject for another thread] and been a whistle blower all my life fighting in a cycle of opposition most of the time.
Thats why I am so well suited to this particular assignment.
Steve

 

[Slamajamajama]

steve u have 12 posts on the board most just on this thread, why keep pressing...my nostrils are flared....im suspicious of any1 trying to feed me with a shovel than with a spoon
mike

 

[prattreef]

Mike,
It was suggested to Steve that MR was an interesting and forward looking Community ( among others) to approach about supporting this venture from the hobbyist side. I and others in the commmunity are excited by the potential and interested in participating. He has been encouraged to post here and share his considerable experience and expertise with us. There are many legitimate questions to be asked surrounding this complex undertaking, and I doubt he will shy away from any of them.

I see no pushing here other than the fact that there is a timeline by which the nets need to be purchased and delivered to PNG.

 

[jhale]

Personal issues? What? Did you think that joke was an attack? Sorry you viewed it that way.

Just so you know the know, Steve happens to be a VERY close friend of mine. He's been a mentor of mine for a decade. He's also my only ex-boss I utterly respect. He knows my comment was fully in jest, and he knows my references to the bone.

How would we know that was a joke?
I was not asking you to limit the information discussed in the thread, I was asking that it not deteriorate by name calling and fighting. Since you have set the record straight go ahead and make fun of each other all you want :lol:

I want to hear the info, the more the better in my eyes.

 

[prattreef]

"So are you saying that there is impending intrusion on these "Pristine Reefs" from other reef related industries and their very damaging practices? If so, what has kept them at bay all these years and what has changed to allow them to become a threat?"

Civilization is coming ...civilation is coming!
Now that Papua New Guinea has been a tourist destination for jet set divers ...a mining and timber country and a lobster and tuna country....for quite some time.... the experience with world commerce has helped open the eyes of a new generation of educated local people and they are driving PNG to lot of places quickly.
This momentum is building and if you want to keep it clean, you have to imprint people on better, sustainable ways from the very beginning.

Pristine reefs do exist there to be sure, but thats away from the villages for the most part and beyond where the village fishers can even go.
Why?
Because each village has its own territorial limit and cannot infringe on the neighboring villages reefs. Each village area has a collection management plan that forbids collecting beyond the boundary anyway.
Unlike the Philippine and Indonesian examples, [ where everyones mindset on this stuff comes from] the traditional village boundaries extent into the ocean in PNG limiting fishers to the finite square miles in their own back yards which must be taken care of so not to suffer depletion and destruction of the more advanced collecting societies.
Cyanide and coral destruction would be worse here as there would be no passage to other peoples reefs or to those pristine ones.

What we really have is a "pristine system" that can and should be spread to other countries. Especially countries where they have made a mockery of their own fisheries sector, laws and so called management schemes.
The for profit part of this is for the exporters to make whoever they may be...so long as they operate within the laws we take part in creating , monitoring and if need be revoking.
The law against ruining corals to collect will be a new mandate...a new standard that everything plays off of. Everyone in the chain will be guilty as the fishers contract and collect for the exporter who is willing to buy their fish and help set them up. Fishers and the exporter will work it more like in most countries where they depend on each other and not in the wild open flea market system of the Philippines and Indo.
It is the actualization of the oft theorized vertical integration of the chain of custody. Ie. staff divers working for and with the buyer who must work for and with the collector.
Coral breaking and poisoning threatens the permits upon which he activity depends and the exporter will have to work to keep his staff clean as well.
Anyone wanna be an exporter? anyone?
We at Eco Ez are a non profit org working as consultants for the government. We don't sell fish.

Steve

Thank you Steve for your thoughtful responses. I'm sure these answers lead to even further quetions. I hope others take the time to digest what you are offering up and further the converstion through additional questioning.