how to get rid of ich when you cant get the fish out of the tank

[marrone]

I think this was already answered but you really need to remove the fish from the tank, and then treat them and leave the tank fallow, otherwise you're never going to get rid of the problem. Now you can hope that with all the corals and filter feeders, water movement, overflows, and filter socks will take some of free floating Ich out of the tank that the level of ich will stay low, and your fish can live with Ich at that level, but usually in the end it just leads to fish dying.

 

[coralcruze]

Marrone, will you at least answer the originally Post on how to treat a fish with ICH in a reef tank without removing the fish. Since you have all the answers in this trend.

Marrone can't answer this because for him there is no TREATMENT of ich in a reef tank.

To him there is only prevention of infestation. However he clearly believes that stress has absolutely no bearing on a fishes ability to fight off ich.

To him strengthening a fishes immune response is a futile attempt to fighting Ich. However, he admitted that he never used microbe-lift. i used it in my reef with SPS and full of inverts and it worked to save a fish which is now thrieving. Will it work every time? I'm unsure... but i will not hesitate to try it again in the future if I see Ich.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with strengthening a fishes immune response and to your point, garlic extract is a great way to do this as is many other great products like selco and amminos and others.

 

[piranhapat]

That's not answering his question. He said he can't catch the fish. So no other solution except remove the fish. So he's a goner than....single fish in the tank can't fight it off your saying. I guess you never had a fish with Ich or Velvet that survived with other than your treatment options. I had success with copper most of my time. But also had success by strengthen some fish immune system where I couldn't remove than from reef tank.

 

[coralcruze]

That's not answering his question. He said he can't catch the fish. So no other solution except remove the fish. So he's a goner than....single fish in the tank can't fight it off your saying. I guess you never had a fish with Ich or Velvet that survived with other than your treatment options. I had success with copper most of my time. But also had success by strengthen some fish immune system where I couldn't remove than from reef tank.

so true Piranhapat. and a good point that keeps getting lost/ignored. we know that in order to get a fish out of a reef you have to break a reef down and take rock out in order to net it. Someone mentioned you can net the fish at night. Thats telling of thier level of success, in my tank I have so much sps growth that If I were to try this I would break chunks of sps swinging a net around. which I'm not willing to risk doing. This person making such a comment probably has little success with corals and has little growth if they have so much room swinging a net around. i also grew all of my sps from frags being glued directly to my live rock. so removing rock with the now fully grown colonies would not fair well for the corals.

Its impossible to get certain fish out of a "successful reef" with live rock and a simple net and not cause some destruction to the reef. I have however been able to trap the fish by baiting a compartment or soda bottle. this is far less destructive to the reef but relies on the fish still feeding which we know a fish with a bad case on ich will not eat. so thats out the window.

 

[marrone]

That's not answering his question. He said he can't catch the fish. So no other solution except remove the fish. So he's a goner than....single fish in the tank can't fight it off your saying. I guess you never had a fish with Ich or Velvet that survived with other than your treatment options. I had success with copper most of my time. But also had success by strengthen some fish immune system where I couldn't remove than from reef tank.

Actually that is answering the question, and it's the best thing to do in the long run. Yes, you can have some fish that will be able to fight off the Ich, and live, but in general most of the time you end of losing a lot of fish and it still a problem when you adding new fish. People feed things like garlic and these other products, which claim to build up a fish immune system, but don't actually kill the Ich, or put something in the fish slime that the Ich doesn't like so it wouldn't reattach, most of the time lose fish but a few may make it. Now did the fish survive from those things or was it something else, most likely they would have survived being fed regular food and those things had nothing to do with the fish surviving. The answer is that if it works sometimes, or once in a while, most likely means that it's not working and it was something else. So if he can't get the fish out of the tank he basically he could do what you said, try and feed the fish and hope that it makes it.

 

[coralcruze]

To the OP:

I will add if a fish that has Ich is eating and keeps eating. it WILL make it no HOPING required here. When it stops eating is when you have to hope.

Lastly as Marrone mentions above feeding IS IN FACT a form of boosting a positive immune response in a fish. so yes absolutly feed a varied diet and nothing at all wrong with garlic supplimentation or selco or amino acids and vitamins despite of what some may think. It can only help a situation like this and WILL aid in boosting immunity to many pathogens/parasites that do exist in all of our tanks. If nothing else garlic is a great way to get those pesky and finiky and yes even sick fish to start eating again.

If yu are wondering how to implement this... depending on what you plan on feeding you can let the feed soak in these solutions. My fish go nuts for garlic and I use it when I introduce a new food to the fish. they just cant get enough of the smell.

 

[lnevo]

Actually in regards to garlic. It is not as harmless as you think...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2352039

I see absolutely nothing wrong with strengthening a fishes immune response and to your point, garlic extract is a great way to do this as is many other great products like selco and amminos and others.

 

[lnevo]

Furthermore garlic does not strengthen the immune system directly. It stimulates appetite and its eating well that builds the immune system. Just to clarify...

People feed things like garlic and these other products, which claim to build up a fish immune system, but don't actually kill the Ich.

 

[homegrowncichlid]

Skimming over, I'm not exactly sure over the details discussed (quite enthusiastically I might add) , but I have a link I can post about fish immunity, which makes reference to a scientific journal dated 1998, which I have also read. This should clear up your debating in regards to stress and immunity?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/
Treatment Option 1: Natural Immunity
"As with Cryptocaryon irritans, it has been demonstrated that fish can develop immunity to Amyloodinium ocellatum after several non-lethal exposures, and that this immunity can last for at least six months (Cobb, Levy, & Noga, 1998). "

Here is the link to the journal article, which describes the procedure.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...inoflagellate_Parasite_Amyloodinium_ocellatum
ABSTRACT The dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum, which causes amyloodiniosis or ?marine velvet disease,? is one of the most serious ectoparasitic diseases affecting warmwater marine fish culture worldwide. We demonstrated that tomato clownfish Amphiprion frenatus can develop strong immunity to infection following repeated nonlethal parasitic challenges. The protective response is long-lived and directed against the trophont stage of the parasite.


I have used this principle to induce herd immunity in my tank, by having immune carriers (chromis and zebrasomas) develop an effective immunity (or resistance if you would like) to the specific ich strain in my tank. Once asymptomatic, I was able to add non-resistant fish, one at a time, and induce immunity in them, until the ich population died out naturally within 9 to 12 months.

 

[coralcruze]

Furthermore garlic does not strengthen the immune system directly. It stimulates appetite and its eating well that builds the immune system. Just to clarify...

I agree.. I don't think anyone here said that garlic directly strengthens the immune system. It does so indirectly by stimulating the fish to eat and it does this quite effectively. When you have a fish that is not eating and you can use a suppliment like garlic to get the fish to eat to save its life, why not do so? should we not use garlic and allow the fish to wither away from starvation? is this better? This immediate action of getting the fish to eat takes all presidence over any ill effects that garlic may have LONG term (as your link seems to suggest).

I plan on continuing to use garlic as a >suppliment<. I have seen nothing but positive results from it.

 

[MikeC]

Is garlic still good for vampires ?

 

[coralcruze]

Skimming over, I'm not exactly sure over the details discussed (quite enthusiastically I might add) , but I have a link I can post about fish immunity, which makes reference to a scientific journal dated 1998, which I have also read. This should clear up your debating in regards to stress and immunity?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/
Treatment Option 1: Natural Immunity
"As with Cryptocaryon irritans, it has been demonstrated that fish can develop immunity to Amyloodinium ocellatum after several non-lethal exposures, and that this immunity can last for at least six months (Cobb, Levy, & Noga, 1998). "

Here is the link to the journal article, which describes the procedure.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...inoflagellate_Parasite_Amyloodinium_ocellatum
ABSTRACT The dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum, which causes amyloodiniosis or ?marine velvet disease,? is one of the most serious ectoparasitic diseases affecting warmwater marine fish culture worldwide. We demonstrated that tomato clownfish Amphiprion frenatus can develop strong immunity to infection following repeated nonlethal parasitic challenges. The protective response is long-lived and directed against the trophont stage of the parasite.


I have used this principle to induce herd immunity in my tank, by having immune carriers (chromis and zebrasomas) develop an effective immunity (or resistance if you would like) to the specific ich strain in my tank. Once asymptomatic, I was able to add non-resistant fish, one at a time, and induce immunity in them, until the ich population died out naturally within 9 to 12 months.

excellent info. thank you for sharing...

 

[lnevo]

I agree.. I don't think anyone here said that garlic directly strengthens the immune system. It does so indirectly by stimulating the fish to eat and it does this quite effectively. When you have a fish that is not eating and you can use a suppliment like garlic to get the fish to eat to save its life, why not do so? should we not use garlic and allow the fish to wither away from starvation? is this better? This immediate action of getting the fish to eat takes all presidence over any ill effects that garlic may have LONG term (as your link seems to suggest).

I plan on continuing to use garlic as a >suppliment<. I have seen nothing but positive results from it.

I agree. You claimed garlic was harmless and marrone said that it was purported to increase immunity. I quoted the appropriate comments in both posts.

 

[reefs4life]

What an amusing discussion. I vote this thread of the week lol

 

[coralcruze]

I agree. You claimed garlic was harmless and marrone said that it was purported to increase immunity. I quoted the appropriate comments in both posts.

yes thank you.

 

[coralcruze]

What an amusing discussion. I vote this thread of the week lol

I agree with you... you are right, its quite amusing.

 

[b-ridge]

@coralcruze. How much did you dose and how big is your tank? I know you have to turn off all uv, carbon and skimmer for I think it's 10 days correct?

 

[ducati335i]

Coral cruz I been doing this for 15 yrs.. I put money on it that my reef tank :hug:s all over yours.. Put up some pix.. What kind of "cute and fuzzy teddy bear" do you have to be to not be able to catch a fish w the lights off when the fish can't see? Are you serious? Unless it sleeps in a rock, fish are caught in 20seconds.. Op where are you located? I'll get the fish out.. Does the op have his tank filled w Sps like coral cruze? Lmao stay on topic.. And let's see your tank pix.. I bet those will be copied off the internet as well.. I still can't get over not being able to catch a fish.. A simple fish outsmarts a human? Well maybe in your case!

 

[oh207]

Still enjoying the posts. It's good to have such healthy discussion.

 

[ducati335i]

Btw garlic does nothing for ich might as well pray.. You have corals in the tank and can't get the fish out..

Feed heavy, use filter socks, water changes.. And pray.. If the fish is strong enough he may fight it.. But it will probably always be in the system.. If what u are seeing is truly ich.. Any pics?

U cN also catch a fish when u feed.. All my fish eat out of my hand.. There is a reason for that... I also just caught my manderin in all but 30 sec the other day as it was in qt then placed in my other 40 gallon old tank that is fully stocked.. Caught it w a cup and my other hand.., I haven't had one fish I couldn't catch.. I have no idea what the hell you people are talking about... Let's see pix of the tank and why u can't catch him.. Sounds like you want a miracle cure.. Just get the damn fish out.. This isn't rocket science.