Why fish??

[clarionreef]

Mike,
No need to explain...The only good fish supplies left, especially those with indicators species and representative species tend to be in Muslim controlled Mindinao...just a reminder that future trainers need to come increasingly from Muslim ranks. And why not? Its their fishing area, their homeland. They have first rights to the resource of course and may enjoy those rights in perpetuity if we train and teach the wisdom of doing so for THEIR benefit. Then, and only then, will we have a right to profit from the produce.
Steve
PS. Sometimes argumentation and debate, equalize wise men and fools. But at least here its not hidden from view like the politics of the trade in general. I've always been amazed at how afraid many Americans are of exercising their own freedoms.

 

[dizzy]

Steve
PS. Sometimes argumentation and debate, equalize wise men and fools. But at least here its not hidden from view like the politics of the trade in general. I've always been amazed at how afraid many Americans are of exercising their own freedoms.

Steve,
There is a lot of truth and wisdom in the above paragraph. Free speech is what made our country great. Let the light of truth blind those who would do their dealings in the dark.

MG

 

[clarionreef]

Mitch,
Thanks, but whatsa matter? Did I kill another thread?
If so, I'm worried. I think I've killed as many as Kalk.
Sorry,
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Hey! I dont kill threads.......I shape them! :twisted: Only four threads end in my name......{well five now} :wink:
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[flameangel1]

Peter,,

I am tired of dealing with an intrangient aquarium trade and marine hobbyists that don't know or in most cases don't care. If the truth hurts, too bad.

I just read this comment from you and AGREE wholeheartedly !!!!
As a retailer and owner, I decide what I do and do not sell and to who I do and do not sell. And I really am fed up with the many comments about- "we need such and such fish because the hobbyist demands it " !!!
Well, tough !!!
If one has ethics and morals- they will just abide by them and not cater to the money/demand aspect of running their business, for a bunch of people who dont care to learn the facts.

Yes, I love my customers-but will and do explain why such and such is not available or why I refuse to stock it. Thank heavens, 95% of the customers listen and agree and are grateful for the information.
That 5% that give me a bunch of s#@&- can go elsewhere !!!!

Pretty darn soon, both hobbyists and LFS/dealers etc, are going to learn that this is a LUXERY hobby and not a neccessity of life !!!!!!
(sorry for the rant here)

 

[flameangel1]

on another note here-
- Kalk--WHEN you come back from your exploratory excursion to the Philipines and your big study on the actual facts of what is going on in this industry over there-- then and ONLY then-do you have any basis for the facts you are constantly harping on !!!!!!!!

As you refuse to accept the facts from those who have been there first hand-- YOU really MUST go over and see for yourself !!!!!!!!

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Flameangel,

I appreciate that there are retailers (and even some hobbyists) that care about the sustainability of coral reefs. As Steve Robison said during the first Philippine net trainings (in 1984) "The reefs are like a coconut tree, cut down the tree and there won't be any more coconuts." Likewise, destroy the reefs and we lose the reef fishes that support the marine aquarium trade. There are many problems with the reefs and the trade, but hopefully we can do our part to save the reefs, the reef fish communities and the marine aquarium trade. While I am a fisheries scientist, I am also a marine hobbyist. So, I care.

There is a need to reform the MAC standards and the MAC Certification process. Today, I posted an email stating that a meeting is needed to air differences and find solutions/compromises concerning the problems.

I proposed that we could meet associated with the ITEMS2 Conference to be held March 24-27th in Manila, Philippines. It is too soon to say whether others are willing to support this idea. The Conference will bring together the scientistis and managers for coastal zone management and fisheries management concerned about such topics as Marine Protected Areas, Underwater survey techniques for assessing coral reefs and reef fish populations/communities etc. I proposed that persons such as yourself in the trade (retailers, wholesalers, importers), associated with MAC, with conservation groups, representing the collectors, and the exporters (yes even concerned hobbyists) needed to meet. The issues are sustainability of coral reefs and tropical coastal ecosystems, as well as how the trade can help solve these problems. This coud be a separate meeting or session held associated with the Conference for all concerned about the future of the reefs and the aquarium trade.

Peter Rubec

 

[Mike King]

Peter,
I will be at the ICRI Items2 meeting as will Paulie and Ray from American Samoa.

Mike

 

[dizzy]

Peter,

I doubt the average retailer can afford such a luxury trip to PI. Some people get free rides and others have to pay their own way. Probably IMAC in Chicago in May would be more opportune for most US retailer/wholesalers. I think the industry is struggling or maybe it is just us, but I have seen better times in years past.

Mitch Gibbs

 

[Kalkbreath]

Im still waiting for ONE of the Chicken littles to show any prof of what they rant, A whole "movement" has Has taken up arms without ever seeing one shred of prof or evidence.......anyone here, ever seen the so called massive distruction? If so ,why after twenty years have not these people shared this first hand experiece with ONE set of underwater photos?Funny how they never have a camera when they need it........ Because like the big foot, its hard to capture an image that is not there....
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[Kalkbreath]

Also,keep in mind............Most, if not all the coral was killed in the Maldives ,with the bleaching event in 97. Not only did all the dead coral become covered with green algae.......the fish respond with the highest population increase ever, {more food} Call any of the dive shops in the Maldives, and ask them first had what the years following the bleachings witnessed. Then ask yourself, what would cause the Philippines reefs not to respond the same as the Maldives reefs?
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[kylen]

So the answer to all of this is to sit back and do nothing??? Leave the standard practice of rampant cyanide use in place??? Why not use ethical practices to catch fish to ensure that the reefs and the fisherfolk are protected? To ignore what is presently going on is utterly irresponsible.

 

[Kalkbreath]

The only wide spread problem is ONE; that we buy too many fish from one small collection area. and TWO: that we jump on bandwaggons without first learning what the truth is ...........Dont you find it odd that for all the thousands of "dead reefs" we sould have thousands of underwater videos beaming into the American housholds by greenpeace and MAC? Why is it that its always someones first hand account, but never with any solid proof to back it up? You dont feel silly ,having never seen even a photo of a Big Foot? As you swear up and down that its out there?
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[dizzy]

kalk,

I saw a special on efforts to restock corals around the Komodo Islands. The area had been blasted flat by the food fish guys. About all that was there was rubble, and they were taking large rocks from shore out to try and establish some hard bottom, to give the corals something to attach to. It was very sad because the blast fishing continues and educating these people against its use is not easy.

I actually believe an area that has been damaged by cyanide will recover much quicker than an area that has been blasted in such a manner. This is not to downplay the negative effects of cyanide, but it does demonstate the foolhardiness of switching the aquarium collectors over to food fishing, like would happen if aquarium fish collecting were to be banned.

Mitch Gibbs

 

[dizzy]

PS,

I think that special on the coral restocking in the Komodo Islands was on a program called "New Wave" on Discovery channel. Worth watching.

MG

 

[Kalkbreath]

kalk,

I saw a special on efforts to restock corals around the Komodo Islands. The area had been blasted flat by the food fish guys. About all that was there was rubble, and they were taking large rocks from shore out to try and establish some hard bottom, to give the corals something to attach to. It was very sad because the blast fishing continues and educating these people against its use is not easy.

I actually believe an area that has been damaged by cyanide will recover much quicker than an area that has been blasted in such a manner. This is not to downplay the negative effects of cyanide, but it does demonstate the foolhardiness of switching the aquarium collectors over to food fishing, like would happen if aquarium fish collecting were to be banned.

Mitch Gibbs

I agree! that is why I feel to overlook the real killers over the reef is ..........going to harm them even more.. It is very dangerous to have the public think that now with the aquarium industry out of business .......the reefs will be any better off .
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[PeterIMA]

Reply to Kalkbreath,

I dove coral reefs in various places in the Philippines and directly observed the effects of dyanamite fishing (huge craters among piles of coral fragments) and other methods of destructive fishing. Cyanided corals had bare bleached skeletons that were still standing. I described this in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987 with pictures that Don McAllister and myself took with an underwater camera during 1986 on the Bolinao coral reef. I would be happy to copy the article and send it to you. In 1988, I published a paper titled "The need for conservation and management for Philippine coral reefs" in the scientific journal Environmental Biology of Fishes, The paper described and documented the many factors (including cyanide) destroying Philippine coral reefs. The paper had images taken by Lynn Funkhouser. Lynn has been diving in the Philippines for over 20 years and is an excellent underwater photographer. Her images have appeared in various publications such as Ocean Realm. She has extensive photographic images of the effects of dynamite fishing, cyanide fishing, the damage caused by removing corals for the curio trade etc. The reason you don't see her images in aquarium magazines is they arn't willing to pay for enough for them.

As far as your accusation that cyanide fishing is localized near Manila this is pure BS. I wrote another paper for Marine Fish Monthly in 1987 (one of four I wrote for them that year) that described where the collectors lived and where they conducted their collecting (all over the country whereever there is coral reefs). This was based on information that I obtained from Victor Alabadeho a biologist with the Coral Reef Research Group within the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR). If you want to read any of these papers, send me an email (using your real name). It really gets me how someone like you can profess to know something, but won't even use your real name. If you are sincere, you shouuld identify yourself and identify the sources of your information.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec, Ph.D.

 

[Kalkbreath]

My point is, not that there is no cyanide damage.....its that the photos are always of blasted reefs........... dead and still standing reefs.{which is what we get with juice fishing} And I would love to see more photos of a cyanide killed reefs one year later?
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[kylen]

Kalkbreath,

Just because you personally are waiting to see pictures of reef destruction from cyanide use doesn't make continuing cyanide use acceptable. Even though cyanide may not contribute to reef destruction to the extent that other factors do, this practice should stop. It seems that you take the attitude that the end justifies the means...just a squirt here and there, but that's alright because the reef is still standing. It will come back in a year.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kylen, The time estimated for a dynamited reef to recover by 50% (study by Dr. Gomez of the University of the Philippines, was 38 years. Likewise, a study of the Bolinao Reef by McManus and co-workers and another by Saila et al. estimated the time for cyanided reefs to recover to be longer than the time for recovery from dynamite fishing. I can mail you the scientific papers if you need to see them.

Peter Rubec