Why fish??

[Kalkbreath]

Peter,Take a look at any living reef coral , in the wild or in a wholesalers tank.. Every single reef building coral is growing on a dead coral..........{ excluding lagoon corals} Scientific studies which state that cyanide harmed reefs take LONGER to recover then reefs blasted to bits .......Is silly. The Warm water bleached reefs of 1997 have fully recovered in many locations........... lava killed reefs in Hawaii fully reclaim and with MORE diversity, in four years.....Even artificiall reefs come to life in a few short years! As long as the reasons a reef was there in the first place{ clear clean warm waters , amble light, and something to grow on" Its only when there are other activities also harming a reef ,that it does not recover in a few short years. There are many locations in the red sea and Jakarta which corals killed by Cyanide were reclaimed by new recruits within a year. There is a reason why corals in the Philippines dont recover quickly like they do elsewhere............
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[Anonymous]

Peter,Take a look at any living reef coral , in the wild or in a wholesalers tank.. Every single reef building coral is growing on a dead coral..........{ excluding lagoon corals} Scientific studies which state that cyanide harmed reefs take LONGER to recover then reefs blasted to bits .......Is silly. The Warm water bleached reefs of 1997 have fully recovered in many locations........... lava killed reefs in Hawaii fully reclaim and with MORE diversity, in four years.....Even artificiall reefs come to life in a few short years! As long as the reasons a reef was there in the first place{ clear clean warm waters , amble light, and something to grow on" Its only when there are other activities also harming a reef ,that it does not recover in a few short years. There are many locations in the red sea and Jakarta which corals killed by Cyanide were reclaimed by new recruits within a year. There is a reason why corals in the Philippines dont recover quickly like they do elsewhere............

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, You sometimes make some sense. Please clarify what you know about cyanide use in Jakarta, Indonesia and the Red Sea. Have you been there? Is what you are saying based on personal observations or heresay?

When I stated that the recovery (regeneration) time of coral reefs from cyanide is prolonged (greater than 30 years for 50% recovery) I am not talking about how long it is for some corals to start to return (although that is of interest). I am talking about how long it takes for the full diversity of corals to return to the site and achieve 50% of their diversity over what was there before cyanide use. Some soft corals come back quickly because of their dispersa mechanisms and high growth rates. Other types such as Large Polyp Stony (LPS) corals can take a very long time to recolonize and regenerate since they grow very slowly. I also don't think you should generalize about recolonization from global warming effects to what is required following cyanide fishing.

Peter Rubec

 

[dizzy]

Likewise, a study of the Bolinao Reef by McManus and co-workers and another by Saila et al. estimated the time for cyanided reefs to recover to be longer than the time for recovery from dynamite fishing. Peter Rubec

Peter,

What is the logic behind the above thinking? If the cyanide damage was more widespread or more complete it might make sense. If all corals within a one mile x one mile areas were dead due to cyanide in one place, and all corals within a one mile x one mile area were dead and blasted flat in another place, do you think the blasted area would recover quicker? It sure doesn't seem like they would to me.

Mitch Gibbs

 

[PeterIMA]

Mitch,

First I should clarify that both studies were simulation models that took into account coral growth rates, dispersal of planula larvae etc. One study concluded regeneration from dynamite fishing would be faster than regeneration from cyanide fishing. The other concluded the reverse (reefs cyanided would be faster). However, both predicted a slow recovery (see my definition of what that means). I am not sure that your analagoy makes sense or not. My own observations of the Bolinao reef in 1986 (reported in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987) certainly impressed me that the reefs were almost completely dead within the barrier reef off of Santiago Island near the town of Bolinao. The studies by the International Centre for Living Marine Resources (ICLARM) with students from the Universitt of the Philippines were done from about 1988 to 1991 (if my memory about the ICLARM report by McManus et al. is correct). The models predicted a slow recovery. All I can say is that from speaking with Dr. McManus recently (now at the University of Miami) he told me that the reefs had not recovered (yet). There is now extensive cage culture of fish and invertebrates being conducted in the area, which presumably provides some jobs for the former fishermen. My point is that the models predicted a slow recovery and this appears to be what is happening. Both cyanide fishing and dynamite fishing was being conducted over the same area, so it is somewhat difficult (in my mind) to separately quantify which was more important over the other. Both dynamite fishing and cyanide fishing are very destructive (more so than people on this bulletin board seem to realize).

Peter Rubec

 

[dizzy]

Peter,

I have never been to the Philippine Islands or Indo to see the destruction first hand, but I am on the side that believes destructive fishing is very bad.

Hopefully not every last coral is killed in a given area before the divers of death move on. I'm not trying to say cyanide is better than dynamite either. All I'm saying is that it seems like recovery would happen quicker if the coral reef was still intact. Especially if there were some corals that survived in the area.

Mitch Gibbs

 

[MaryHM]

Here's part of the problem- the continued fraudulent claims that cyanide is not an issue anymore. This is what we hear from retailers across the country continually. Read their comment on cyanide. http://www.salth2ohq.com/questions.asp


Someone please contact them and set the record straight. Frankly, I'm running out of energy...

 

[MaryHM]

Bless my soul! Not two minutes later did I come across another one!!
http://www.reefkeepers.org/visions/an_o ... tement.htm 3rd paragraph

This is what we're up against. An industry that insists on spreading mythinformation to create a "feel good, non-guilty" marketplace.

 

[MaryHM]

HOLY FISH POO-POO!! I just noticed that last one is from none other than Charles DeVito!! 8O

 

[dizzy]

Here's part of the problem- the continued fraudulent claims that cyanide is not an issue anymore. This is what we hear from retailers across the country continually. Read their comment on cyanide. http://www.salth2ohq.com/questions.asp


Someone please contact them and set the record straight. Frankly, I'm running out of energy...

Mary,
The above link don't work no mas.

Mitch

 

[MaryHM]

Highly interesting, cuz it worked fine and dandy last night. In fact, I showed it to Mike King. Basically it said that cyanide was eradicated decades ago and isn't a problem anymore.

 

[dizzy]

Mary,
I was able to use the link this morning. They were defintely making some outrageous statements about cyanide not being a problem anymore. I guess someone told them about this thread. I wouldn't think all that many stores are telling people that, but who knows. I have never heard any of the customers in this region saying that a store told them something like that. I guess we're just more honest here in the South.

Mitch

PS I don't consider Florida part of the South. Too many snowbirds.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Dont let me rub you all the wrong way..............but what proof do you have that cyanide fishing is occuring at the same rate{or at all} that it was ten years ago {when all the data and studies were conducted?} {or those simulations?} It would be quite easy to photograph freshley bleached sections of reef {corals}{ a sure sign of recent coral tissue loss?} Rather then decades old coral rubble...
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[Anonymous]

kalbreath wrote:

Dont let me rub you all the wrong way

:lol: :lol: :lol:


just get off the denial trip, and you would be half as aggravating as you are now :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Dont let me rub you all the wrong way

Too late for that

Just based on the consistant poor quality of fish I've seen comming from the Phillipines and Indo over the last 10 years (actually longer) and the rantings of Peter and Jaime who actually go and see and have no obvious reasons to want to lie to us about the situation. I don't know when Steve has last been to PI, but he made quite an impression on me at an early MACNA (I think it was III) when he talked about the Net Caught movement and brought PI exporter he was working worth who also talked some about the problems. I've got no doubt he was honest than and still has the contacts in PI to be giving us accurate info as well.

Over the last ten years wholesalers have, week after week bought these fish{.9 out of every 10 fish} ....there has been no shortage of fish during these 10 years and even MAC has chosen these collectors over any other place on the Earth......Never has anyone offered anything but rumors as to the widespread distruction........... by the collectors for this hobby. Even Peter, only has seen simulations?
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[PeterIMA]

KalK, Your aggrevation factor just went up. I think if you read my posting said I was there and saw it for myself. However, in reply to the question of time for the coral reef community to regenerate, I mentioned peer reviewed scientific papers. It is kind of like evolution, there is plenty of evidence, but we are not going be able to to see the process happening (because of the time scale being protracted).

When are you going to post or publish all of the pictures you must have taken on your trips to the Red Sea and Indonesia of all those cyanided reefs you supposedly observed first hand?

 

[clarionreef]

Hello ,
I just wrote a reply and misposted it over on the AMDA thread...please have a look.
If there is an assumption that the reefs are fine because plenty of fish are still coming in and filling the market its a silly one.
Multiplying catch effort, and at times geometrically increasing catch effort from more fisherman...deeper and futher afield can often keep pace with demand. The extra fuel consumption, diver deaths and debilities, rising prices for the more coveted stuff and poorer quality from increased bag time and ammonia exposure, [especially on blue damsels]
all need to be factored into any claims of ..."don't worry, be happy".
The reefs left behind to scrape and pressure still futher by poor local people not in possession of bigger boats...well these reefs are the real tragedy [ of the commons]. This is where the amplification of poverty continues and the crime is more apparent. But hey, we still get our fish somehow, right? So who cares.
It is exactly this old and obvious problem that brought UNICEF in one time in the early 80's to fund fishermans retraining under an Imelda Marcos program in some outlying areas where fish collecting was strong. As per tradition, the administrator embezzled the money and I resigned but it was clear as can be to me the rationale for the well intentioned project.
Alas...20 years later, same argument and same old story of no real training in areas of continuing depletion that attract few camermen because the is so little left to see! Little tourism, tropicals or fish protein... no problem on the reefs you say??
No, just a lot of poor, marginalised fishermen and their families trying to eeke out a living based on damaged reefs from many causes...one serious one of which was/is the institutional abuse of poison, supported without conscience by the international aquarium industry. Predictably diminishing returns on these reefs is the human cost of the problem.
But theres still plenty of fish on the wholesalers lists this morning you say? Well hail victory. Thank goodness...I thought there was a problem. Thanks for setting me straight.
Steve

 

[jamesw]

Hi Mary,

That article you posted from reefkeepers.org is WAY old. Here is a newer one (by Charles Devito) posted on our site:

http://www.reefs.org/editorial/index.html

That too was a while back, but not 1/2 decade old.

Cheers
James

 

[dizzy]

Who is Charles Devito? Is he an industry insider? Or is he a hobbyist on a mission? How do we know Charles Devito is even a real name? :?

 

[MaryHM]

James,

I don't see Charles refuting his previous cyanide comments in the link you gave. All he's doing is talking about overcollection.