More MAC

[Anonymous]

naesco wrote:

Peter,I am not interested in what happened in the past.

just a friendly point, lest you forget :wink:


'those who do not remember the past, are condemned to repeat it' :wink:

 

[PeterIMA]

Naesco, I also am interested in a cyanide testing procedure being implemented in the shortet time frame.

Four choices exist pertaining to the Philippines.
a) The MAC or someone else helps the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources(BFAR) to overcome whatever problems they have, and BFAR demonstrates they are doing the test properly.

b) Some other organization sets up an independent laboratory and conducts CDT testing.

c) Both a) and b) get implemented.

d) The situation stays the same and the reefs continue to be destroyed by cyanide fishermen.

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

Thanks Peter
You speak of several labs throughout the Phillippines.
Is there a 'portable test' available now?

 

[MaryHM]

Tim Tessier, owner of Seacare.org, an importer/wholesaler in Canada has responded to Paul's letter. It can be found at http://www.reefsource.com/Industry%20Is ... teiger.htm

 

[PeterIMA]

Answer to Naesco,

Jaime Baquero recently stated that a portable cyanide test should be implemented in the Philippines. Likewise, BFAR wanted IMA to implement a rapid field test. This approach is subject to the following problems.

a) First there are a number of companies selling low-cost field test kits that can measure cyanide ion in solution. Some that come to mind are those sold by Hach and by Merck. The catch is that the cyanide in fish is bound in their tissues. So the first problem is releasing the cyanide into solution (this generally requires dissolving the fish with either a strong acid or a strong base).

b) The second question might be-How does one dissolve the fish? Answer-By using the acid or base in some kind of apparatus like the reflux-distillation apparatus used by IMA.

c) The next question might be-Is there a field kit capable of dissolving the fish? Answer-No, this is best done in a laboratory by qualified chemists.

d) Another concern is that the field kits can not deal with interfering substances. So, even if the cyanide is in solution the kit may not give the correct reading (usually it is just presence/absence rather than a measure of concentration). The method used by IMA in the laboratory deals with interfering substances. Field tests probably would not stand up in a court of law to support prosecution of cyanide fishermen or cyanide distributors.

 

[naesco]

Peter thank you Just a couple of follow up questions.

1. Please expand upon the term interfering substances and how they might affect test results?
2.As I understand the audit fish that is killed for the test is ground up in a blender type apparatus, acid or base is used and then the test reagent is applied given a positive or negative reading. Why can this procedure not be done on site? Is it because it cannot be done with sufficient `correctness` to withstand legal criminal prosecution standards?
Thank you

 

[PeterIMA]

Naesco, I suggest you consult the posting I made on reefs.org at the begining of September. Briefly, the tissue is mascerated in a blender with sodium hydroxide. The slurry is added to a distillaton flask and magnesium chloride and another chemical is added (two chemicals one to deal with inteference by nitrates and the other to act as a catalyst). Then the flask is heated to near boiling and hydrogen cyanide (HCN) gas is released.The HCN passes through a reflux condenser at a measured rate (about 1 ml per second). Then the gas is recaptured in an absorber tube containing concentrated sodium hydroxide solution at pH 12-13. Then, lead carbonate is added to precipitate sulfides (that can interfer with cyanide readings with the ISE electrode). The cyanide ion selective electrode is used with a known volume of sodium hydroxide to measure the cyanide ion concentration while linked to an ISE meter. Corrections are made to determine the concentration of cyanide ion based on the original weight of the tissue sample in order to determine the concentration in milligrams per killigram (ppm). The concentration in ppm determined with the ISE meter is done against a four point calibration with known cyanide ion concentrations. Calibrations are done daily. The apparatus can not be used in the field (but can be done regionally at field laboratories). A fume hood and space is needed for the apparatus. Tests should be done by chemists. Short of having a mobile trailer with the equipment, this is not a field test.

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Development of the cyanide test was decades ago, however, instrumentation develoment has come a long way. Remember the days when a pH meter took up half your lab bench, and had to be moved by forklift. An instrument with the same sensitivity now is the size of a ballpoint pen.

These days technology developments allow me to believe that a portable and reliable CDT and method can be developed. It is a key factor in the certification process to take the test to the fish, instead of the other way around.

I consider the development of this CDT is a wonderful exercise for a foundation to fund. I believe this is one of the priorities MAC is working on. Instruments makers consider this as straightforward development exercise. The portable meters could be put in the hands of game wardens, roving inspectors, NGO swat teams- whatever. Buddy exporter and collector would then live in fear of a snap visit. The real purpose, of course, is to increase the cost of doing Bad business, so that people begin doing Good business. With a 90% mortality of cyanide caught fish vs. zero for hand-net caught specimenes, we only need shift this balance a tad.

Jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, If you don't know the subject area (cyanide testing) don't act like you do. Read my postings concering interfering substances then if you have something to say provide substantive infomation. Cyanide testing is not anthrax testing. Having a meter to detect cyanide is like present Ion Selective Electrode (ISE). It can provide reliable result only after you have dissolved the fish and dealth with interfering substances. Explain that if you can.

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

I may be wrong but I think what Jamie was thinking is the same as me.
We must not only move to fast track cyanide testing but we must also move to develope superior mobile test.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter,

Please, allow people to express opinions. Respect is important in this kind of exchange.

The only thing I am saying is that technology is moving really fast and that with all those developments there is a "possibility" to produce a portable and reliable CDT. Funding and a team of "experts" could do it.

Peter, please stop being arrogant.

jaime

 

[clarionreef]

Hey!
What is it with the Canadians on this board? You guys act more and more like Americans every day!
Save it for the bad guys...
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Development of the cyanide test was decades ago, however, instrumentation develoment has come a long way. Remember the days when a pH meter took up half your lab bench, and had to be moved by forklift. An instrument with the same sensitivity now is the size of a ballpoint pen.

. With a 90% mortality of cyanide caught fish vs. zero for hand-net caught specimenes, we only need shift this balance a tad.

Jaime

While I agree that , if we wanted to we could produce testing equiptment and spot testing that would place enough fear in the minds of the collectors to end juice fishing ........{ even testing ten percent of all imported fish ,would cost very little ,with the aveage cost of an PI fish being around a buck FOB} YET...... I again need to point out that the idea that net fishing has zero percent mortality is silly. { many fish are eaten while stuck in the barrier nets and many fish also end up with damage to the gills when stuck in the barrier nets, and that cyanide fish do not have a 90% mortality rate. While I do not support Cyanide fishing.......It is also false that corals die when cyanide is properly is use in the correct amount.{No I dont have a link, but I have talked with people who have used the same coral head repeatedly again and again with the juice....... with out harm. Please try to picture how hard it is to get fish to come out of the coral heads.{fishing in rock piles is one thing but live coral reefs is a maze of .branches and caves....yelling ,pounding the seafloor and prying the coral apart with a crowbar all work to some degree. But the juice is the most effective. ...What we need is a new eco-freindly juice....one that gets the fish out of the live coral without having to tear apart the coral with a tire tool!
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green crack plant

 

[MaryHM]

OK, Kalk, I'm gonna pin you down on this one. What is the name of the collector you spoke to and where is his collection area? I have been involved in this stuff for years and have never once spoken to a Philippine or Indonesian diver. They don't tend to carry around cell phones.

Do the patrons of your store know you are a cyanide proponent? Do you post it proudly on the door to your establishment?

 

[Anonymous]

kalkbreath wrote:

While I do not support Cyanide fishing...

where do you buy your fish from? :wink:

of course you do-liar :wink:

cyanide kills coral upon contact

but I have talked with people who have used the same coral head repeatedly again and again with the juice....... with out harm.

i'm pretty sure that's a physical impossibilty :wink:

i would also like to know who you've talked to :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
Is it therapy you're here for?
Seriously people...its like arguing with a KKK proponent. It only equalizes wise men and fools. Hes like aptasia. It doesn't matter how many times you defeat it...it keeps coming back.
The agenda that needs to be adressed has been waylaid dozens of times and is frankly ruining this board. I suggest that from now on we all simply let it go and stick to issues where people are more sincere and not just mindlessly contrarian.

Look, now look what you made me do. After scolding the Canadians for getting testy...I just did it myself. Hmmm...
I guess its easy to dismiss things that are not so near and dear to you as I did the CDT discussion. But as soon as someone defends the cyanide trade and monkeywrenches every discussion for no principal or nobler intention, I too got ticked off. I'd love to debate Kalk publicly and make a fool of him for all the world to see, but he just doesn't mean anything or stand for anything. It would be a pointless victory and a waste of time.
I guess flies, ticks and other irritants do serve a purpose though. Jaime, Peter...If I can't stifle myself, How can I ask you to?
Sorry,
Steve

 

[naesco]

With respect, ignore him

 

[Kalkbreath]

OK, Kalk, I'm gonna pin you down on this one. What is the name of the collector you spoke to and where is his collection area? I have been involved in this stuff for years and have never once spoken to a Philippine or Indonesian diver. They don't tend to carry around cell phones.

Do the patrons of your store know you are a cyanide proponent? Do you post it proudly on the door to your establishment?

Oh! they do have cell phones.... Maybe not from Fiji where your collectors are . I cannot tell you who this collector{or his cell phone number} is, because just like my conversations with many people in LA , they would not spill the beans.if they thought I was going public.......... I am not a proponent of juiced fish. but I will not alow false claimes to go un challenged........
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[Kalkbreath]

kalkbreath wrote:

While I do not support Cyanide fishing...

where do you buy your fish from? :wink:

of course you do-liar :wink:

cyanide kills coral upon contact

but I have talked with people who have used the same coral head repeatedly again and again with the juice....... with out harm.

i'm pretty sure that's a physical impossibilty :wink:

i would also like to know who you've talked to :wink:

Cyanide does not kill at lower levels.......its even naturaly in seawater1 Any one that has small reef fish in there store ,has possible cyanide fish. Fiji ,Red Sea, Tonga , Maldives and Hawaiii .dont even list most of the small blennies and gobies........because they are too hard to catch.
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Honda NH series

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Best thing to do is ignore and stop responding to non sense.

jaime