Reform?Ban?limit?.......Get your heads out of the araganite

[mkirda]

The first place to start with any reform., is to accurately assess the current state of affairs There is sizable collection for this hobby in only about seven countries: Fiji, Philippines, Jakarta, Bali, Solomons, Tonga.

Kalkbreath,

You lost me... When exactly was it that Jakarta, the capital of a country called Indonesia, ceded from said country and formed its own separate entity? Isn't that what Aceh was trying to do, and is now embroiled in civil war?

{snip} our involvement is so tiny that its insignificant. Cleaning up our image, the needless fish deaths and the quality of product is what we should be focusing on ...........

How about focusing on the rather significant amount of damage that our hobby does do to the reefs? As well as how we could better prevent needless fish deaths and increase the quality of fish. Once we get those licked, and only then does this hobby deserve to a concerted campaign to clean up our image.
The way it stands right now, we are a target. There are people in power who want this trade to end. Being in the industry, I really can't get over how you consistently fail to understand this. You blame everything on the food fishermen, yet fail to admit that one MO cyanide fisherman is too many... To most of us here on the list, Kalkbreath, that makes you complicit in this dark side of the trade.

Let me put it this way: If you order from PI or Indo and you are not importing directly from one of two importers, you are getting fish that are juiced. Maybe not all of them, but a sizable percentage. This in not 'insignificant', as you claim. Each of those fish represent a dead patch of coral. Or eel-rubbings, as you like to call them.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Caterham]

In parts of Indonesia the collecting of slow-to-reproduce corals is too thorough to be sustainable. Researchers have reported that collectors have taken all of the Elegance corals from some regions. The same is true for sea cucumbers removed for the Asian food market.

John,

Could you please let me know which species you are referring to when you are talking about "slow to reproduce corals"? If collection is too thorough to be sustainable then what number would be sustainable? Please provide me with some data.

As far as Elegance corals being completely removed from some regions, who are the researchers? What are their names? Who do they work for? Where does the budget come from? Can you provide me with a link to the data? I would love to see it because I am very interested in the sustainability of reefs.

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[mkirda]

John,

Could you please let me know which species you are referring to when you are talking about "slow to reproduce corals"? If collection is too thorough to be sustainable then what number would be sustainable? Please provide me with some data.

Carterham,

John will probably not have said data in-hand.
Your best bet is to contact Eric Borneman directly- He wrote the hobbyist article, he helped gather the data for it.

One example of a slowly reproducing coral is said Elegance Coral. You might take one and be able to frag it, but it sure doesn't regain the size it had very quickly. They are also apparently not too common, as I have yet to see one in the wild, even after diving in areas where they are said to inhabit.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Caterham]

Mike,

Thanks so much for your reply. I already spoke with Eric at length recently in Chicago at IMAC.

Perhaps John could answer a few of the other questions about the researchers. That would be great! Thanks again in advance.

 

[John_Brandt]

Caterham,

The presenter of the data at MACNA was Dr. Andrew Bruckner of NOAA, as I mentioned previously. You can try to get a copy of the report from him at [email protected] .

The corals that are commonly harvested with a slow reproduction rate are mostly the large-polyp stony corals. They tend to be slower growing than the small-polyp corals and are less prolific overall. Additionally, collectors often will harvest an entire colony (head) whereas with a small-polyp coral (esp. branching) they may simply break off a section.

Andy presented quite a bit of data on many species from many locations. I think he may have data on all species under CITES from Indonesia.

Andrew W. Bruckner
NOAA Fisheries

Topic:
"The Stony Coral Trade in Indonesia: An Assessment of Sustainability"


Abstract:

Indonesia is currently the world's largest exporter of stony corals for ornamental markets, with an annual trade of about 2 million colonies of stony coral and live rock. To date, Indonesia is the only country that has developed management mechanisms for stony coral resources that includes a quota for the annual harvest of corals, established for each taxa for each of the 10 provinces where harvest is permitted. The management plan for Indonesia has general guidelines for the sustainable utilization of coral resources. However, concerns have been raised that the export quotas established by Indonesia are not based on available scientific information on the biology, distribution and abundance of the taxa, or the amount of harvest that the resource can support.

NOAA Fisheries in collaboration with TRAFFIC Europe is conducting an analysis of the stony coral trade in Indonesia, to provide guidance in the development of complementary management approaches. The initial component of this project is focusing on specific taxa of corals that are currently under trade suspension in the EU , which make up close to 50% of the total annual quota allocated by the CITES Authorities of Indonesia.

In this study, we assessed the distribution, abundance, population demography, habitat requirements and life history characteristics of the taxa in trade. We also examined the patterns of coral utilization, including the numbers of collectors, locations of collection and the amount and type of harvest. The goals are to map the distribution of the harvested taxa and describe the condition of the resource, to determine ecologically sustainable collection guidelines. Preliminary information from the Spermonde Archipelago, South Sulawesi, and recommendations on possible constraints that should be placed on current harvest levels is presented.

 

[Caterham]

Thanks for the info John!

 

[Kalkbreath]

John,

Could you please let me know which species you are referring to when you are talking about "slow to reproduce corals"? If collection is too thorough to be sustainable then what number would be sustainable? Please provide me with some data.

Carterham,

John will probably not have said data in-hand.
Your best bet is to contact Eric Borneman directly- He wrote the hobbyist article, he helped gather the data for it.

One example of a slowly reproducing coral is said Elegance Coral. You might take one and be able to frag it, but it sure doesn't regain the size it had very quickly. They are also apparently not too common, as I have yet to see one in the wild, even after diving in areas where they are said to inhabit.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I already had this conversation with"HUGO" and I blew his doors off..........Why dont you email him and ask if he would like to join us again..........Last we spoke he could not come up with one shread to back up claims.........then he removed all my posts to boot?.........Too bad he could not defend himself or his positions..........Just mention the "Atlanta" thread of RC............

 

[Kalkbreath]

Caterham,

The presenter of the data at MACNA was Dr. Andrew Bruckner of NOAA, as I mentioned previously. You can try to get a copy of the report from him at [email protected] .

The corals that are commonly harvested with a slow reproduction rate are mostly the large-polyp stony corals. They tend to be slower growing than the small-polyp corals and are less prolific overall. Additionally, collectors often will harvest an entire colony (head) whereas with a small-polyp coral (esp. branching) they may simply break off a section.

Andy presented quite a bit of data on many species from many locations. I think he may have data on all species under CITES from Indonesia.

Andrew W. Bruckner
NOAA Fisheries

Topic:
"The Stony Coral Trade in Indonesia: An Assessment of Sustainability"


Abstract:

Indonesia is currently the world's largest exporter of stony corals for ornamental markets, with an annual trade of about 2 million colonies of stony coral and live rock. To date, Indonesia is the only country that has developed management mechanisms for stony coral resources that includes a quota for the annual harvest of corals, established for each taxa for each of the 10 provinces where harvest is permitted. The management plan for Indonesia has general guidelines for the sustainable utilization of coral resources. However, concerns have been raised that the export quotas established by Indonesia are not based on available scientific information on the biology, distribution and abundance of the taxa, or the amount of harvest that the resource can support.

NOAA Fisheries in collaboration with TRAFFIC Europe is conducting an analysis of the stony coral trade in Indonesia, to provide guidance in the development of complementary management approaches. The initial component of this project is focusing on specific taxa of corals that are currently under trade suspension in the EU , which make up close to 50% of the total annual quota allocated by the CITES Authorities of Indonesia.

In this study, we assessed the distribution, abundance, population demography, habitat requirements and life history characteristics of the taxa in trade. We also examined the patterns of coral utilization, including the numbers of collectors, locations of collection and the amount and type of harvest. The goals are to map the distribution of the harvested taxa and describe the condition of the resource, to determine ecologically sustainable collection guidelines. Preliminary information from the Spermonde Archipelago, South Sulawesi, and recommendations on possible constraints that should be placed on current harvest levels is presented.

What exactly does this demonstrate ? Lets assume two million corals is correct...........How many corals in a square mile? how manysquare miles of reefs in this region? How bout ONE example of ONE reef denude of coral anywhere? ONE photo?

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Befor you accuse Dr. Bruckner of the NOAA National Marine Fisheries Service (also a member of the US Coral Reef Task Force) of not knowing what he has documented in numerous publications, I suggest you read them. The latest was published in te book Marine Ornamental Species, Collection, Culture, and Conservation.

You continue to spread assumptions and misinformation that you can not substantiate. So, I challenge you to provide references to published scientifically documented information when you make your assertions. Repeating lies and more lies does not make them facts.

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

Kalk, Befor you accuse Dr. Bruckner of the NOAA National Marine Fisheries Service (also a member of the US Coral Reef Task Force) of not knowing what he has documented in numerous publications, I suggest you read them. The latest was published in te book Marine Ornamental Species, Collection, Culture, and Conservation.

You continue to spread assumptions and misinformation that you can not substantiate. So, I challenge you to provide references to published scientifically documented information when you make your assertions. Repeating lies and more lies does not make them facts.

Peter Rubec

You see Peter, sadly Kalk truly represents industry. They conitnue to have their heads in the sand until one day they wake up and the party is over.
Goverment will legislate them out of business.

 

[Anonymous]

naesco wrote:

Goverment will legislate them out of business.

could you please explain to me why any capitalist gov't would want to legislate the end of any multi billion dollar a year (internationally)industry/business?


:?

 

[Anonymous]

<hint>

look at the cigarette companies-gov't is still refusing to put an outright end to them, and they kill PEOPLE, not corals :wink:

 

[JennM]

You see Peter, sadly Kalk truly represents industry. They conitnue to have their heads in the sand until one day they wake up and the party is over.
Goverment will legislate them out of business.

You see, Naesco truly represents socialists. They continue to have their heads in the sand, believing that the "government" will take care of everything.



Keep fighting the good fight, Wayne -- makes me more glad that I moved

Jenn

 

[naesco]

naesco wrote:

Goverment will legislate them out of business.

could you please explain to me why any capitalist gov't would want to legislate the end of any multi billion dollar a year (internationally)industry/business?


:?

Because industry is doing wrong, Vitz!

1. The industry is a party to the destruction of the reefs in Indonesia and the Phillipines by the use of cyanide. They are felons under the US Lacey Act.
2.The industy is a party to the reduction of levels of certain fish, coral and invertibrates below sustainable levels in certain areas.
3. The industry harvests fish coral and invertibrates for the hobby which they know has no chance of survival even in experts tanks.
4. The industry is blind to the above, does absolutely nothing to reform itself and therefor invites Government review and involvement.

IMO there is only two ways to stop this destruction.
1. In the case of cyanide, lay felony charges under the Lacey Act against the felons.
2. Invite the Government in to notify industry that they will 'shut down' the industry until corrective action is taken by them.

Even in the extreme right wing Bush administration, there are indididuals who will do the proper thing. I know they still have the death penalty but they still charge and convict felons for pollution violations, don't they?

Well Jenn, a while back what I have written would have made good sense to you. Read the above one more time. One of the good things about being a Canadian (even if you no longer live here) is to understand what is right and what is wrong.
"The Maple Leaf our emblem dear, the Maple Leaf forever,
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless, the Maple Leaf forever." :wink:

 

[naesco]

All right now, quit that humming, eh!
I can hear you and see you smile all the way in Vancouver

 

[Anonymous]

All right now, quit that humming, eh!
I can hear you and see you smile all the way in Vancouver

are cigarettes legal in vancouver? :?

 

[naesco]

All right now, quit that humming, eh!
I can hear you and see you smile all the way in Vancouver

are cigarettes legal in vancouver? :?

Yes except it is illegal to sell them to minors. Less than 10% of people in our Province smoke because it is bad for your health and heavily taxed.

Recently the Canadian Government legalized the use of marijuana. If you have under 13 grams in your possession it is OK. If you have 14 or more you are fined.

Also gay marriages are now legal and fully recognized. These unions have all the rights and obligations of any hetero marriage.

If you are a Muslim or of Middle Eastern extraction you are treated like any other Canadian. It is illegal to decriminated against anyone as a result of their religion or where they or their parents were born.

If you are sick, you have the right to full Medical care whether you are rich or poor, black or white etc. It would be a felony for a hospital to refuse anyone medical attention.

"My country is my cathedral. The northern skies its dome.
They all call her Canada, but I call it home.
The mountains, the lakes, the forests. Are friends I have known.
They all call her Canada. But I call her home" :wink:

 

[naesco]

Its OK to feel the lump in your throat, eh!
Just keep on humming, smile; you may be separated but you are still one of us.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, Befor you accuse Dr. Bruckner of the NOAA National Marine Fisheries Service (also a member of the US Coral Reef Task Force) of not knowing what he has documented in numerous publications, I suggest you read them. The latest was published in te book Marine Ornamental Species, Collection, Culture, and Conservation.

You continue to spread assumptions and misinformation that you can not substantiate. So, I challenge you to provide references to published scientifically documented information when you make your assertions. Repeating lies and more lies does not make them facts.

Peter Rubec

Then lets debate those specifics.......YOU tell me what findings Leeds YOU to believe what you do.......Explain how collecting from less then 1% of the worlds reefs can effect the remaining 99%? I last read a study that concluded collecting on {one} of FIJIs'1500 Islands means collection in Fiji is somehow unsustainable? Or how bout the study that found collection of fish from the Kona cost in Hawaii ..... "one section of coastline.....one ONE island, in the huge Hawaiian Island chain .....means collection in "Hawaii" is somehow unsustainable? ...WE have been doing it for twenty years with little effects ....Yes, if scientists limit the scope of a study to a small area of reef ....The researcher can get any finding he wishes.....Example; Scientists found that collecting 50% 0f the yellow tangs each week . Resulted in a 50% loss in yellow tangs ! {Yes its called MATH} But studies of nearby reefs found no noticeable declines? There is only so many places for fish to live......most fish die looking for a home.....reef Fish Populations dont naturely continually increase anywhere in the ocean.....but remain controlled by the lack of structure to hide in......We as a hobby simply relocate the fish that would otherwise surcum to the reality of homelessness........Ninety nine percent of all clown triggers die their first year...........even on reefs hundreds of miles away from mankind......We as a hobby simply relocate these fish to die else where......?{which is a completely different topic} :wink:

 

[mkirda]

Then lets debate those specifics.......YOU tell me what findings Leeds YOU to believe what you do.......Explain how collecting from less then 1% of the worlds reefs can effect the remaining 99%?

How the heck can we debate specifics when you continually pull numbers out of your rear end, Kalkbreath? That number, 1%, stinks to high heaven from the orifice from which it is pulled!

You continually talk about 'collection only takes place on one island'. Ignoring the fact that that island is the most inhabited one. And the largest one. You ask the people here to accept your assumption that all islands are the same size, and have the same amount of reef area around them. This is pure, unadulterated BS.

Made up numbers coupled with simplistic 'analysis' lead to completely wrong answers. You are a walking example of how to lie with statistics.

Regards.
Mike Kirda