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Reform?Ban?limit?.......Get your heads out of the araganite
- Thread starter Kalkbreath
- Start date
PeterIMA":6a216ys6 said:John, Is that a sexist comment?
Blue Hula has informed me by email that she has a Ph.D. in marine resource ecology from McGill University. Other details about her education and experience she can provide, if she wishes.
Peter Rubec
No Peter, it was not a sexist comment. Blue hula never identified herself here in the forum. Seeing you refer to blue hula as a her was therefore surprising.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
"Surprising?"
As in ..."cover up everyone theres a girl in here! " Or what?
Forgive us Blue. Some of us don't get out much.
Steve
As in ..."cover up everyone theres a girl in here! " Or what?
Forgive us Blue. Some of us don't get out much.
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
So Blue...
What are you wearing?
delete...delete....self delete....how do you self delete!!!???
What are you wearing?
delete...delete....self delete....how do you self delete!!!???
Enough! I wish to retract my comment that the estimate of 350 fish (all aquarium fish species) averages about 350 fish/sq km/yr. She is in the ball park. Let me explain.
I shall be referring to a study titled "Resource Biology of hte Bolinao Coral Reef Ecosystem by J. W. McManus, C.L. Nanola, Jr., R.B. Reyes, Jr. and K. N. Kesner published by the ASEAN/US Coastal Resources Managemet Project through the International Center for Living Aquatic Resources Management (ICLARM) in 1992. The study was conducted in collaboration with faculty members and students from the University of the Philippines Marine Science Institute.
I have visited the area of Santiago Island near Bolinao in 1986. The village of Binabalian on Santiago Island is where Steve Robinson conducted net-training in 1984. My observations from my short visit were published in an article in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987. So, I have direct knowledge of the area.
Santiago Island has a reef flat area with a surrounding barrier reef. Outside the fringing reef is a reef slope area going into deeper water. Depths over the reef flat generally don't exceed 20 feet and have mixed coral heads over calcareos sand. There are also seagrass beds over the reef flat. I was able to observe and photograph the collectors using barrier nets both on the reef flat area and in about 60 feet of water over the reef slope outside the fringing reef. I noted in my article that the reefs were heavily degraded by destructive fishing including the use of explosives, cyanide, and harvest of corals for the curio trade. I observed small-scale fishermen using gill nets, hook and line gear, and fish traps over the same areas.
The ICLARM study team implemented intensive monitoring of all the various fisheries in the area starting in 1988. The study ran to 1991. In addition to the aquarium fishery and the food fishery gears just mentioned the report monitored drive-in nets, and spear fishing based on landings. They also conducted trawl surveys over the seagrass beds in the lagoon. They also reported on yields from stationary fish corrals, and karakod seining.
Some comments about blast fishing. It noted that the most common device is a bottle filled sodium nitrate altenating with layers of pebbles. Cord type fuses are used obtained from commercial sources. The blasts kill all sizes of fishes. It reduces coral cover and has long term effects on fish production. I observed the pits scattered over the bottom and heard numerous exposions in the distance during my visit. McManus reported about 10 blasts per hour.
A variety of fish poisons are used in Bolinao, but the most prevalent was the use of sodium cyanide. It is harmful to the corals and other fish in the vicinity. The study noted that no yield rate estimates were made for blast fishing or the use of cyanide. Hence, the yield figures I will present were obtained from monitoring the other gear types previously mentioned.
The majority of fishing tended to be within 2.7 km from shore in an area of about 42 square kiliometers (sq. km). About 95% of the yield came from this area. The monthly production mean of 10 metric tonnes (t) translates into an annual production of 120 t. or yield of 2.7 t/sq km/yr. This contrasts with other studies ranging up to 26 t/sq km/yr at other locations in the Philippines. So, the site is heavily degraded by destuctive fishing and overfishing.
It should be understood that reef fish communities are diverse and complex. There is variable recruitment by the various fish species. Even where adult fish were absent or had become very rare, there was recruitment of juveniles from offshore reefs (possibly very far away) or form reefs in deeper water below the range of hookah diving.
In Appendix I. the study noted that there were 545 species of food fish and aquarium fishes monitored as being caught by the small-scale municipal fishers. The density of all species as numbers per 1000 square meters (per sq km) estimated on the reef slope was 132.3. On the reef flat the density estimated was 467.89. The density over seagrass beds estimated by trawling on the reef flat was 314.34 fish per sq km. Based on visual census techniques along transects the most prevalent Family was the wrasses (Labridae) comprising 31.74% and damselfishes (Pomacentridae) comprising 15.07% of all species. Surgeonfish (Acanthuridae) comprised 11.99% of the total. Generally speaking the more prevalent species were found in the first 1-5 meters depth in comparison to deeper zones 5-16 m and 16-26 m.
Based on visual surveys there were 336 species of fishes observed. The visual census broke down densities for each species over A-coral and sand, B-corals and seagrass, C-seagrass, and D-Sargassum beds. So it is possible to estimate the population of each species over these zones within the reef flat and slope areas (although the numbers were not bumped up to the total area of each of the bottom habitat types).
The total densities (Numbers per square kilometer) for all 336 species was A 405.63 fish over Coral and Sand, B- 661.13 fish over Corals and Sand, C- 409.60 fish over Seagrass, and D-395.19 fish over Sargassum. The total densities of all species was 398.89 over the Reef slope. The roller beam trawl total was 1,257.38 fish per sq km.
The study does not make a distinction between food fish and aquarium fishes. I will spend some time breaking this apart and report on it at a later date.
Based on the figures I just presented, Blue Hulas estimate of 350 aquarium fish per sq km per year is not unreasonable (it appears to be within the right order of magnitude). More analyses are needed however for extrapolations of densities for marine aquarium fishes nationwide. Basically, I believe it is better to extrapolate up from the areas of reef zones (or benthic habitat areas) based on some estimate of their degreee of degredation than to extrapolate backwards from export numbers and the total area of coral reefs.
The numbers exported do not give an estimate of the population numbers within the fish communities from which the fishes were harvested. So, we do not know the rate of exploitation from these data [e.g. we do not have an estimate of the fishing mortality (F) or the total Annual mortality (A)]
Peter Rubec
I shall be referring to a study titled "Resource Biology of hte Bolinao Coral Reef Ecosystem by J. W. McManus, C.L. Nanola, Jr., R.B. Reyes, Jr. and K. N. Kesner published by the ASEAN/US Coastal Resources Managemet Project through the International Center for Living Aquatic Resources Management (ICLARM) in 1992. The study was conducted in collaboration with faculty members and students from the University of the Philippines Marine Science Institute.
I have visited the area of Santiago Island near Bolinao in 1986. The village of Binabalian on Santiago Island is where Steve Robinson conducted net-training in 1984. My observations from my short visit were published in an article in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987. So, I have direct knowledge of the area.
Santiago Island has a reef flat area with a surrounding barrier reef. Outside the fringing reef is a reef slope area going into deeper water. Depths over the reef flat generally don't exceed 20 feet and have mixed coral heads over calcareos sand. There are also seagrass beds over the reef flat. I was able to observe and photograph the collectors using barrier nets both on the reef flat area and in about 60 feet of water over the reef slope outside the fringing reef. I noted in my article that the reefs were heavily degraded by destructive fishing including the use of explosives, cyanide, and harvest of corals for the curio trade. I observed small-scale fishermen using gill nets, hook and line gear, and fish traps over the same areas.
The ICLARM study team implemented intensive monitoring of all the various fisheries in the area starting in 1988. The study ran to 1991. In addition to the aquarium fishery and the food fishery gears just mentioned the report monitored drive-in nets, and spear fishing based on landings. They also conducted trawl surveys over the seagrass beds in the lagoon. They also reported on yields from stationary fish corrals, and karakod seining.
Some comments about blast fishing. It noted that the most common device is a bottle filled sodium nitrate altenating with layers of pebbles. Cord type fuses are used obtained from commercial sources. The blasts kill all sizes of fishes. It reduces coral cover and has long term effects on fish production. I observed the pits scattered over the bottom and heard numerous exposions in the distance during my visit. McManus reported about 10 blasts per hour.
A variety of fish poisons are used in Bolinao, but the most prevalent was the use of sodium cyanide. It is harmful to the corals and other fish in the vicinity. The study noted that no yield rate estimates were made for blast fishing or the use of cyanide. Hence, the yield figures I will present were obtained from monitoring the other gear types previously mentioned.
The majority of fishing tended to be within 2.7 km from shore in an area of about 42 square kiliometers (sq. km). About 95% of the yield came from this area. The monthly production mean of 10 metric tonnes (t) translates into an annual production of 120 t. or yield of 2.7 t/sq km/yr. This contrasts with other studies ranging up to 26 t/sq km/yr at other locations in the Philippines. So, the site is heavily degraded by destuctive fishing and overfishing.
It should be understood that reef fish communities are diverse and complex. There is variable recruitment by the various fish species. Even where adult fish were absent or had become very rare, there was recruitment of juveniles from offshore reefs (possibly very far away) or form reefs in deeper water below the range of hookah diving.
In Appendix I. the study noted that there were 545 species of food fish and aquarium fishes monitored as being caught by the small-scale municipal fishers. The density of all species as numbers per 1000 square meters (per sq km) estimated on the reef slope was 132.3. On the reef flat the density estimated was 467.89. The density over seagrass beds estimated by trawling on the reef flat was 314.34 fish per sq km. Based on visual census techniques along transects the most prevalent Family was the wrasses (Labridae) comprising 31.74% and damselfishes (Pomacentridae) comprising 15.07% of all species. Surgeonfish (Acanthuridae) comprised 11.99% of the total. Generally speaking the more prevalent species were found in the first 1-5 meters depth in comparison to deeper zones 5-16 m and 16-26 m.
Based on visual surveys there were 336 species of fishes observed. The visual census broke down densities for each species over A-coral and sand, B-corals and seagrass, C-seagrass, and D-Sargassum beds. So it is possible to estimate the population of each species over these zones within the reef flat and slope areas (although the numbers were not bumped up to the total area of each of the bottom habitat types).
The total densities (Numbers per square kilometer) for all 336 species was A 405.63 fish over Coral and Sand, B- 661.13 fish over Corals and Sand, C- 409.60 fish over Seagrass, and D-395.19 fish over Sargassum. The total densities of all species was 398.89 over the Reef slope. The roller beam trawl total was 1,257.38 fish per sq km.
The study does not make a distinction between food fish and aquarium fishes. I will spend some time breaking this apart and report on it at a later date.
Based on the figures I just presented, Blue Hulas estimate of 350 aquarium fish per sq km per year is not unreasonable (it appears to be within the right order of magnitude). More analyses are needed however for extrapolations of densities for marine aquarium fishes nationwide. Basically, I believe it is better to extrapolate up from the areas of reef zones (or benthic habitat areas) based on some estimate of their degreee of degredation than to extrapolate backwards from export numbers and the total area of coral reefs.
The numbers exported do not give an estimate of the population numbers within the fish communities from which the fishes were harvested. So, we do not know the rate of exploitation from these data [e.g. we do not have an estimate of the fishing mortality (F) or the total Annual mortality (A)]
Peter Rubec
{its because they fall over dead with even the smallest dose}
Kalk, you you keep saying to others:
YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!!!!!
I've told you almost 10 times now, mandarins aren't caught with juice, because of their massive ability to create slime, and "clam up", not allowing juice to enter their body. It has nothing to do with killing them.
Kalk, you you keep saying to others:
YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!!!!!
I've told you almost 10 times now, mandarins aren't caught with juice, because of their massive ability to create slime, and "clam up", not allowing juice to enter their body. It has nothing to do with killing them.
Then dont walk on the beach .........it contributes to habitat erosion:wink:kylen":ctd1f2zf said:Kalk,
Gresham is correct...you still don't get it. One squirt of cyanide is one squirt too many.
So how many of the top ten collected fish are collected with juice? And explain ?GreshamH":2ch15wt8 said:{its because they fall over dead with even the smallest dose}
Kalk, you you keep saying to others:
YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!!!!!
I've told you almost 10 times now, mandarins aren't caught with juice, because of their massive ability to create slime, and "clam up", not allowing juice to enter their body. It has nothing to do with killing them.
Thank you for all your hard work Peter, Its a shame I have to be such a jerk to get the juices flowing on this board...................But Again my point is that we seem to know so little about what the problems are and are not? How can we fix something that so few {or anyone } has a complete grasp of? How manyfish do we as a hobby collect , is not that unreasonable a question.........Yet very few even hve the ability to tackle the question......... 8OPeterIMA":36dugagf said:Enough! I wish to retract my comment that the estimate of 350 fish (all aquarium fish species) averages about 350 fish/sq km/yr. She is in the ball park. Let me explain.
I shall be referring to a study titled "Resource Biology of hte Bolinao Coral Reef Ecosystem by J. W. McManus, C.L. Nanola, Jr., R.B. Reyes, Jr. and K. N. Kesner published by the ASEAN/US Coastal Resources Managemet Project through the International Center for Living Aquatic Resources Management (ICLARM) in 1992. The study was conducted in collaboration with faculty members and students from the University of the Philippines Marine Science Institute.
I have visited the area of Santiago Island near Bolinao in 1986. The village of Binabalian on Santiago Island is where Steve Robinson conducted net-training in 1984. My observations from my short visit were published in an article in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987. So, I have direct knowledge of the area.
Santiago Island has a reef flat area with a surrounding barrier reef. Outside the fringing reef is a reef slope area going into deeper water. Depths over the reef flat generally don't exceed 20 feet and have mixed coral heads over calcareos sand. There are also seagrass beds over the reef flat. I was able to observe and photograph the collectors using barrier nets both on the reef flat area and in about 60 feet of water over the reef slope outside the fringing reef. I noted in my article that the reefs were heavily degraded by destructive fishing including the use of explosives, cyanide, and harvest of corals for the curio trade. I observed small-scale fishermen using gill nets, hook and line gear, and fish traps over the same areas.
The ICLARM study team implemented intensive monitoring of all the various fisheries in the area starting in 1988. The study ran to 1991. In addition to the aquarium fishery and the food fishery gears just mentioned the report monitored drive-in nets, and spear fishing based on landings. They also conducted trawl surveys over the seagrass beds in the lagoon. They also reported on yields from stationary fish corrals, and karakod seining.
Some comments about blast fishing. It noted that the most common device is a bottle filled sodium nitrate altenating with layers of pebbles. Cord type fuses are used obtained from commercial sources. The blasts kill all sizes of fishes. It reduces coral cover and has long term effects on fish production. I observed the pits scattered over the bottom and heard numerous exposions in the distance during my visit. McManus reported about 10 blasts per hour.
A variety of fish poisons are used in Bolinao, but the most prevalent was the use of sodium cyanide. It is harmful to the corals and other fish in the vicinity. The study noted that no yield rate estimates were made for blast fishing or the use of cyanide. Hence, the yield figures I will present were obtained from monitoring the other gear types previously mentioned.
The majority of fishing tended to be within 2.7 km from shore in an area of about 42 square kiliometers (sq. km). About 95% of the yield came from this area. The monthly production mean of 10 metric tonnes (t) translates into an annual production of 120 t. or yield of 2.7 t/sq km/yr. This contrasts with other studies ranging up to 26 t/sq km/yr at other locations in the Philippines. So, the site is heavily degraded by destuctive fishing and overfishing.
It should be understood that reef fish communities are diverse and complex. There is variable recruitment by the various fish species. Even where adult fish were absent or had become very rare, there was recruitment of juveniles from offshore reefs (possibly very far away) or form reefs in deeper water below the range of hookah diving.
In Appendix I. the study noted that there were 545 species of food fish and aquarium fishes monitored as being caught by the small-scale municipal fishers. The density of all species as numbers per 1000 square meters (per sq km) estimated on the reef slope was 132.3. On the reef flat the density estimated was 467.89. The density over seagrass beds estimated by trawling on the reef flat was 314.34 fish per sq km. Based on visual census techniques along transects the most prevalent Family was the wrasses (Labridae) comprising 31.74% and damselfishes (Pomacentridae) comprising 15.07% of all species. Surgeonfish (Acanthuridae) comprised 11.99% of the total. Generally speaking the more prevalent species were found in the first 1-5 meters depth in comparison to deeper zones 5-16 m and 16-26 m.
Based on visual surveys there were 336 species of fishes observed. The visual census broke down densities for each species over A-coral and sand, B-corals and seagrass, C-seagrass, and D-Sargassum beds. So it is possible to estimate the population of each species over these zones within the reef flat and slope areas (although the numbers were not bumped up to the total area of each of the bottom habitat types).
The total densities (Numbers per square kilometer) for all 336 species was A 405.63 fish over Coral and Sand, B- 661.13 fish over Corals and Sand, C- 409.60 fish over Seagrass, and D-395.19 fish over Sargassum. The total densities of all species was 398.89 over the Reef slope. The roller beam trawl total was 1,257.38 fish per sq km.
The study does not make a distinction between food fish and aquarium fishes. I will spend some time breaking this apart and report on it at a later date.
Based on the figures I just presented, Blue Hulas estimate of 350 aquarium fish per sq km per year is not unreasonable (it appears to be within the right order of magnitude). More analyses are needed however for extrapolations of densities for marine aquarium fishes nationwide. Basically, I believe it is better to extrapolate up from the areas of reef zones (or benthic habitat areas) based on some estimate of their degreee of degredation than to extrapolate backwards from export numbers and the total area of coral reefs.
The numbers exported do not give an estimate of the population numbers within the fish communities from which the fishes were harvested. So, we do not know the rate of exploitation from these data [e.g. we do not have an estimate of the fishing mortality (F) or the total Annual mortality (A)]
Peter Rubec
Kalk, In my most recent paper in the book Collection, Culture and Cultivation I presented data summarizing cyanide testing on 12,852 food fish and 7703 aquarium fish specimens. Overall, 44% of the food fish specimens and 25% of the aquarium fish specimens were found to have cyanide present in their tissues. In the family Gobiidae, there were 13 genera representing 30 species of gobies tested (79 specimens tested). 24% of the gobies tested were positive for cyanide. In the case of blennies (family Blenniidae) there were 7 genera representing 11 species tested. Out of 53 specimens tested, 13% were found to have cyanide present. The dragonets (family Callionymidae) which includes the mandarine fish were represented by 2 genera with 6 species. Out of 109 specimens, 23% were found to have cyanide present in their tissues.
I have broken the data down further by species, but this was not presented in the paper because of inadequate sample sizes for species in the above genera.
Peter Rubec
I have broken the data down further by species, but this was not presented in the paper because of inadequate sample sizes for species in the above genera.
Peter Rubec
Kalk, Sorry, I forgot to provide data on damselfish (family Pomacentridae). There were 19 genera representing 111 species tested for cyanide. Out of a total of 1,807 specimens tested, 19% (345 specimens) were found to be positive for cyanide.
If you send me an email, I can email the paper to you. If you provide a mailing address I can mail a copy of the paper.
Peter Rubec
Email: [email protected]
If you send me an email, I can email the paper to you. If you provide a mailing address I can mail a copy of the paper.
Peter Rubec
Email: [email protected]
Kalk, What are the top 10 collected species that you are referring to? There were 625 species of aquarium fishes tested and 348 species of food fish tested (assuming no overlap for species found in both trades) for cyanide by the six CDT laboratories (based on analysis of half of the database). The CDT database contains test results on over 48,000 specimens tested from 1993 to 2001.
Peter Rubec
Peter Rubec
cortez marine":3jjlwkz7 said:So Blue...
What are you wearing?
delete...delete....self delete....how do you self delete!!!???
Blue jeans and a Montreal Canadiens hockey shirt (go Habs go!).
The blue hula for those interested is Trachinops brauni - endemic species in Western Australia collected for aquaria.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Buuuyah!
Whoop, whoop!
er, sorry.
ps Trachinops...very cool fish .
Whoop, whoop!
er, sorry.
ps Trachinops...very cool fish .
Kalkbreath":9whud6d6 said:Once again neither of you have demonstraighted that this hobby is responsible for the few areas in which reefs are somewhat comprimised
I don't think there is actually any evidence I could possibly provide that would change your views. I've responded primarily so that the unsuspecting aren't gulled - or at least see that they shouldn't be totally complacent about the sustainability of their hobby / industry in terms of VOLUME of trade, and your generally unsupported allegations.
How you can refer to the "few areas in which reefs are somewhat comprised" is beyond me. The most extensive mapping effort of the world's reefs estimate that 97% and 85% of reefs in Phils and Indonesia respectively are at high risk (Reefs at Risk report). And exporters indicate themselves that they are having to travel further and further, and the list goes on in terms of the evidence that aquarium collection is a serious issue in contributing to the stress load on these ecosystems. Note, I didn’t say the ONLY problem, just one of them.
I can only say that there are none so blind as those who won't see.
Kalkbreath":9whud6d6 said:Yes, damsels live in the coral........but almost no collectors fish in the coral for damsels.....only in rock and coral rubble zones ........almost all of the top twenty fish are collected in non reef in eviroments. Clownfish ,damsels cromis gobies blennies{dart fish} are all collected in the rock zones {no not all ,but 90%}
My experience in both the Philippines and Indonesia is that collectors will take fish from whereever they can find them - rubble and reefs. Sorry state of affairs is that healthy reefs are few and far between.
It couldn't possibly be that these rubble zones are areas that once were reef but have since been converted to rubble by a combination of dynamite fishing, cyanide use, and silt and nutrient runoff from land?????
Please - what is the reference for 90% of fish coming from rubble zones?
Kalkbreath":9whud6d6 said:Yes, some fish are collected in the farr off islands {blue faces} but 80% of the fish are collected within 100 miles of of the two big airports.........
I'll say it again - yellow striped premnas, banggai cardinals, some perculas ... all caught from further than 100 miles from Bali. And yes, when they are in those remote areas where they still get fish, they take the damsels that these collectors have as well.
In the Philippines, should we mention Palawan ? It's a little further than 100 miles from Cebu and there was collection there in the early bloody 80's when I first started diving there.
Please again, on what basis do you say that 80% of the fish are collected within 100 miles????
Kalkbreath":9whud6d6 said:Steve Knows this and so does Cruz....{funny how they stay away when they know im correct?}
It couldn't possibly be because they've given up responding to you as a lost cause ?
Steve, Ferdinand ... any comments on the extent of collection in the Philippines ?
Kalkbreath":9whud6d6 said:If all 6 million fish are collected fron half thetotal islands in PI...12,000 KM2 ......... this means only 350 fish are collected per square kilometer!!! From a fish density of several MILLION per square kilometer!!!!!
Gosh, in Bohol you can swim for 20 minutes on many of the coral reefs, such as they are, and see no more than a dozen fish, mostly gobies. Whither the millions? Peter's estimates of amount of fish on degraded reefs sound a lot closer to the truth (and based on surveys!) - in that context, removing 350 fish per km (or anywhere between 100 and 1000) sounds like it could be a problem.
Blue hula
I'm curious how long Blue Hula will keep sparring with Kalk? It's not a fair fight even one of BH's arms tied behind her back. It makes me laugh.
I would like to ask Kalk, if the fish densities are several fish per square metre, and 80% of the collection is done within 100 miles of MNL, where are all my fish?
I would like to ask Kalk, if the fish densities are several fish per square metre, and 80% of the collection is done within 100 miles of MNL, where are all my fish?
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