Reform?Ban?limit?.......Get your heads out of the araganite

[Kalkbreath]

The first place to start with any reform., is to accurately assess the current state of affairs There is sizable collection for this hobby in only about seven countries: Fiji, Philippines, Jakarta, Bali, Solomons, Tonga and maybe one IM forgetting........ Thats five countries out of about 100+ Pacifc Island Countries! Now also take into account that on five of these countries, actual collection takes place on only a few collection sites..{example}; The country of Fiji is a group of about 1200 individual islands............... of these 1200 islands, fish collection for this hobby takes place on only five or so{and live rock on only one island!}{one out of 1200!} There is no way that collecting {even over collecting} can have any effect on the remaining 750 islands of Fiji.........some hundreds of miles away! This Ratio of" islands" vs. hobby" collection islands" is repeated in Tonga {800 to two} The islands of Vanatu,.....The Solomon islands .........Ponope, etc. Reform cant begin until we as a hobby realize that it is impossible for our hobby to have a wide reaching effect out on the reefs.........but we as a hobby can have a far reaching effect in the homes and storefronts,with our living displays. Seems lately that .....................in order to aggrandize the noble efforts of MAC and such, We have been vilifying ALL hobby collectors as a whole and over stating the effects collecting pet fish. has on the reefs of the world. Overstating the effects current collection has on the vast Indo Pacific islands is a foul method to gain attention........... When presented the mathematical facts, {there are over 80,000 islands in the Indo Pacific and only about 30 of those 80,000 have any hobby collection! } it is clear to see that, as great as it would be if we could save the day......... and the reefs ........our involvement is so tiny that its insignificant. Cleaning up our image, the needless fish deaths and the quality of product is what we should be focusing on ........... :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Why thats right Kalk,
Except for a fair bit of Indo and the Philippines.
I never heard much clamor for "REFORM" per se in the South Pacific.
Although its true Hotel interests in Fiji don't have much use for fisherman, as they don't in Hawaii or the Keys. [ although those same hotel interests sure do subsidize a great deal of food fishing. They like fish production, they're just against fisherman]
The trade is not so far ranging afield in the South Pacific as it is in SE Asia. Hardly any region of the Philippines is free of the trade now that Mindinao is 'stuck into it'. Much of the bad rep goes away if its just legal fishing with nets. Then the trade is much more defensible to eco groups that market themselves as remedy for disaster...for a fee.
Its not the trade that gives fuel for the fire so much as cyanide use in the trade.. That is what we're most famous for.
Converting cyanide fisherman will go a long way toward making the trade appear to be a positive alternative to destructive food fishing and a boon
to village economies.
The question of sustainability has always been muddled by the cyanide question. Only without its 'interference" can we really get a handle on how sustainable fish collecting really can be.
Steve

 

[DustinDorton]

I can't remember for sure, but didnt someone do a presentation at macna recently about the state of coral collecting in Indonesia? I think it was Eric Borneman, or maybe he was working with someone else. They sure made it seem like the collection was a lot more wide spread (at least in indonesia) than just a few islands.

Anyone else remember?



Dustin

 

[John_Brandt]

I can't remember for sure, but didnt someone do a presentation at macna recently about the state of coral collecting in Indonesia? I think it was Eric Borneman, or maybe he was working with someone else. They sure made it seem like the collection was a lot more wide spread (at least in indonesia) than just a few islands.

Anyone else remember?



Dustin

Dustin,

You probably are remembering MACNA XIII in Baltimore where Dr. Andrew Bruckner gave a presentation on the Indonesian Stony Coral Trade http://www.masna.org/past-macnas/M13/Bios/bruckner.htm .

Andy was actually filling in a speaker spot for Dr. Barbara Best of USAID, who works with the USCRTF. Barbara was unable to attend. Andy works with NOAA Dept. of Fisheries and he gave a detailed account of the trade by species. Of course Kalkbreath is wrong; corals are taken from a great number of reefs in Indonesia. The total number of individual pieces harvested for the international trade from Indonesia is likely to be in the hundreds of thousands annually.

Your recollection of Eric being part of this presentation is because he had much to contribute on the topic from his seat in the audience. Andy and Eric are good friends and often collaborate, or at least correspond on these things.

 

[clarionreef]

Hey Dustin,
The only reason we haven't lost more 'reformers' is because we lay off the coral trade [for now] and do not discuss what it has done in the depth that Eric has.
There is a ring, a concentric ring of damage and depletion that spins out from the staging areas of Jakarta and Bali. Another is just beginning in Manado, Sulawesi in the North.
From futher away and in the case of some corals, especially elegans...deeper... from futher and deeper comes to us the coral supply that runs the trade.
Since the reef trade is less interested in fish per se, I think it has tolerated the rumor of reform in fish supply.
The reef trades very survival however, owes itself to a single country that has anchored the huge majority of supply...Indonesia. The recent emergence into a struggling Democracy however portends a shakier future for carte blanche coral wild supply that fueled the rapid growth of this trade. Look around you. Democracies hardly tolerate this activity.
There is a race, hidden in plain sight between coral farms ability to produce for the trades needs and the increasingly difficult to sustain and secure wild, crow bar and pry iron coral supply.
Fiji produces a distant second in tonnage and the Solomons and Tonga...a barely on the radar screen 3rd. Thats it! 3-4 countries. Take em away and the coral trade collapses.
Indonesia and Fiji ... What do you know of the countries fishery policies and trends that hold the trade in their hands?
Not a business to bet the farm on I think.
I hope the coral farms can win this race and produce enough to keep the trade alive before the world catches up to the effects of the trade in wild coral. That is an expose that is still not written as it was with aquarium fish.
What Borneman has hinted at is only a tip of the iceberg.
Said enough. Steve

 

[John_Brandt]

I have been told of first-hand eyewitness accounts of the use of cyanide to collect fish for the aquarium trade within the boundaries of The Komodo National Park. Please look closely at the section on "Threats" in this website: http://www.komodonationalpark.org/

 

[PeterIMA]

With regard to the coral trade, I agree with Steve Robinson. We urgently need to replace wild harvest of corals with farmed corals. The countries listed still issue CITES permits. I forsee a tightening of the issuance of CITES permits, and more enforcement from the importing countries (which require CITES documentation). Coral farming (at least for SPS corals) in the wild is very feasible and should replace wild harvest. One problem with this is that at present CITES considers corals cultured (grown from frags) in the ocean as "Wild Harvest". So, there is a need for ocean reared corals to be redefined.

Peter Rubec

 

[Kalkbreath]

I have been told of first-hand eyewitness accounts of the use of cyanide to collect fish for the aquarium trade within the boundaries of The Komodo National Park. Please look closely at the section on "Threats" in this website: http://www.komodonationalpark.org/

READ the link again .....the aquariums are in seafood markets ...{.the seafood industry takes fifty time more live fish then the hobby!}

 

[John_Brandt]

I have been told of first-hand eyewitness accounts of the use of cyanide to collect fish for the aquarium trade within the boundaries of The Komodo National Park. Please look closely at the section on "Threats" in this website: http://www.komodonationalpark.org/

READ the link again .....the aquariums are in seafood markets ...{.the seafood industry takes fifty time more live fish then the hobby!}

Here's the entry from the Komodo National Park website:

CYANIDE FISHING :

"Cyanide solutions are used extensively to catch live reef fish for consumption and ornamental purposes. The concentrations of dissolved poison are not meant to kill but only to tranquilize the target fish, which facilitates their capture. The live food-fish trade concentrates on the catch of groupers and Napoleon wrasse. The aquarium fish trade concentrates on a much wider variety of species of colorful reef fishes. Live spiny lobsters, are also caught with cyanide. Cyanide fishing is done by divers, using "hookah" compressors and hoses to supply air. A diver on a "hookah" compressor-hose descends 10-40 meters until he spots a target fish. He chases the fish into a crevice in the reef and then squirts cyanide from a plastic bottle into the hole. As the fish begins to weaken, the diver breaks away the coral around the hole, reaches in, grabs the fish, and slowly escorts it to the surface. The cyanide fishery for aquarium fish destroys large areas of corals, which are broken down after an area has been sprayed with cyanide and the target fishes have fled in between the corals. The use of hookah compressors is a key factor in cyanide fishing practices."

Some part of your nervous system isn't working right Kalkbreath; it may just be an optical problem. It clearly states that aquarium fish collecting is problematic there.

 

[Kalkbreath]

With regard to the coral trade, I agree with Steve Robinson. We urgently need to replace wild harvest of corals with farmed corals. The countries listed still issue CITES permits. I forsee a tightening of the issuance of CITES permits, and more enforcement from the importing countries (which require CITES documentation). Coral farming (at least for SPS corals) in the wild is very feasible and should replace wild harvest. One problem with this is that at present CITES considers corals cultured (grown from frags) in the ocean as "Wild Harvest". So, there is a need for ocean reared corals to be redefined.

Peter Rubec

Look , there is no reef in the world thats in ill health due to hobby collection...........a small number of lagoon habitats in Indonesia have been over collecting LPS corals......but no reefs .......sps collection consists of small tiny intact colonies {most of which would be over grown in a few years by the huge plating corals that dominate most SPS reefs.........The total amount of hard coral listed on CITES annual report could entirely fit in two Walmart tractor trailers....... Two tractor trailers removed from the Walmart distribution center would be hard pressed to notice ....................Two tractor trailers of coral removed from one of the reefs in the Fla Keys would be hard to notice...............Two tractor trailers of coral removed from ONE of the1500 islands in FIJI would be hardly noticeable .................BUT two tractor trailers A YEAR removed from the entire INDO PACIFIC ? Get a grip........one Adult parrot fish eats many tons of coral a year! And there are millions of coral eating parrot fish out there..........do some math :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

I have been told of first-hand eyewitness accounts of the use of cyanide to collect fish for the aquarium trade within the boundaries of The Komodo National Park. Please look closely at the section on "Threats" in this website: http://www.komodonationalpark.org/

READ the link again .....the aquariums are in seafood markets ...{.the seafood industry takes fifty time more live fish then the hobby!}

Here's the entry from the Komodo National Park website:

CYANIDE FISHING :

"Cyanide solutions are used extensively to catch live reef fish for consumption and ornamental purposes. The concentrations of dissolved poison are not meant to kill but only to tranquilize the target fish, which facilitates their capture. The live food-fish trade concentrates on the catch of groupers and Napoleon wrasse. The aquarium fish trade concentrates on a much wider variety of species of colorful reef fishes. Live spiny lobsters, are also caught with cyanide. Cyanide fishing is done by divers, using "hookah" compressors and hoses to supply air. A diver on a "hookah" compressor-hose descends 10-40 meters until he spots a target fish. He chases the fish into a crevice in the reef and then squirts cyanide from a plastic bottle into the hole. As the fish begins to weaken, the diver breaks away the coral around the hole, reaches in, grabs the fish, and slowly escorts it to the surface. The cyanide fishery for aquarium fish destroys large areas of corals, which are broken down after an area has been sprayed with cyanide and the target fishes have fled in between the corals. The use of hookah compressors is a key factor in cyanide fishing practices."

Some part of your nervous system isn't working right Kalkbreath; it may just be an optical problem. It clearly states that aquarium fish collecting is problematic there.

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Threats to Biodiversity

<http://www.komodonationalpark.org/images/fishing.jpg> There are numerous threats to the biodiversity of Komodo National Park including human population pressure, tourism, the introduction of exotic species and poaching. However, the most potent threat lies in the destructive fishing practices that take place in and around the Park. These practices destroy the coastal environment at great economic costs in terms of coastal protection, fisheries and tourism.

To learn more about destructive fishing practices and the trade that supports them please click on one of the following topics.

Blast fishing
Cyanide fishing
Reef gleaning
Fish traps (bubu), Hook and Line and Gillnets
Over-harvesting
Live Reef Fish Trade

BLAST FISHING :

Fish bombs are mostly made with artificial (chemical) fertilizers such as ammonium- and potassium nitrate (NH4NO3; KNO3), which is mixed with kerosene in a bottle. Blast fishers hunt specifically for schooling reef fish, so that only a few bombs will assure a relatively large catch. After the charge explodes, diving fishers enter the water to collect the fish, which have been killed or stunned by the shock-wave from the explosion. The size of the coral area destroyed by a single blast is dependent upon the size of the bomb and the position of the explosion relative to the coral reef. A beer bottle bomb will shatter an area of stony corals approximately 5 m in diameter.

Many blast fishing operations use "hookah" compressors to collect their catch from the reef. Blast fishing is considered one of the most destructive anthropogenic threats to coral reef ecosystems. It has been estimated that the economic costs of this practice are US$100,000 per km2 on average in terms of coastal protection, fisheries and tourism. Moreover, there has been a loss of around 85,000km2 of coral reefs creating a total loss of US$8.5 billion.

CYANIDE FISHING :

Cyanide solutions are used extensively to catch live reef fish for consumption and ornamental purposes. The concentrations of dissolved poison are not meant to kill but only to tranquilize the target fish, which facilitates their capture. The live food-fish trade concentrates on the catch of groupers and Napoleon wrasse. The aquarium fish trade concentrates on a much wider variety of species of colorful reef fishes. Live spiny lobsters, are also caught with cyanide. Cyanide fishing is done by divers, using "hookah" compressors and hoses to supply air. A diver on a "hookah" compressor-hose descends 10-40 meters until he spots a target fish. He chases the fish into a crevice in the reef and then squirts cyanide from a plastic bottle into the hole. As the fish begins to weaken, the diver breaks away the coral around the hole, reaches in, grabs the fish, and slowly escorts it to the surface. The cyanide fishery for aquarium fish destroys large areas of corals, which are broken down after an area has been sprayed with cyanide and the target fishes have fled in between the corals. The use of hookah compressors is a key factor in cyanide fishing practices.

REEF GLEANING :

The fishery for abalone (mata tuju) has destroyed large areas of coral reefs in recent years. Many fishermen are digging through the reefs, using compressors and steel bar tools (the method is called 'meting'), in search of abalone and other marine invertebrates. The fishermen break down and turn over the corals (which are also trampled by them in the process) and leave behind them fields of near 100% dead coral rubble. Collecting invertebrates from reef flats is a traditional activity, which used to be focused on sea cucumber and carried out during very low tides. The high price for abalone and the availability of dive gear and 'hookah' compressors changed this into a more serious activity in the early nineties and initiated an increase in the total applied effort.

FISH TRAPS (BUBU), HOOK & LINE AND GILLNETS :

The use of bamboo mesh traps) is widespread in Indonesian reef fisheries. The process of setting and retrieving the trap is responsible for extensive destruction on the reef. To hide the traps in the reef, divers break off live coral to cover them. Traps set by simply lowering the trap from boat side via a buoyed rope are responsible for even more serious reef damage. These traps are often heavily weighted, and can destroy entire stands of corals during their installation.

The main yield category from the Park is fish (almost 95%). These fish are mostly caught by gillnets, and by trolling and bottom hook and lines. Demersal trolling lines or 'kedo kedo' are wiping out the coral trout stocks. Bottom hook and lines catch all predators and bottom longlines are decimating the sharks and large groupers. Gillnets kill indiscriminately, including turtles, dugong, cetaceans, and all species of reef fish. The fish stocks of the Park are seriously threatened by the use of gillnets and bottom longlines.

OVER-HARVESTING :

The target fish species in the live reef fish trade commonly aggregate at specific sites to spawn. Groupers and Napoleon wrasse migrate many miles each season to these spawning sites. Spawning aggregation sites are extremely vulnerable since experienced fishers are skilled in locating them. Wiping out the fish on one aggregation site equals the elimination of top predators from several square miles of reef. Grouper and Napoleon wrasse spawning aggregation sites

Mangroves, seagrass, lontar palms, and other species have been over harvested in the past. Seagrass is collected for use as a food source and as an ingredient for cosmetics. There is a large external market for these products. Mangrove tress are used for fire wood. The palm trees are used to make furniture and buildings locally. The decrease in the seagrass population may lead to increased coral mortality and decreases in species dependent upon them for shelter and food.

LIVE REEF FISH TRADE :

The live reef fish trade has rapidly expanded from its epicenter in Hong Kong throughout South East Asia and beyond during the 1990s, and the demand for live fish is projected to grow even more in the future. By supplying the market with well over 50% of this volume, Indonesia is the largest supplier of wild-caught live fish food fish. Being an export oriented activity, the live reef fishery intensified because of the Indonesian monetary crisis. The present exploitation rate is much higher than can be sustained by Indonesia's coral reefs.

The main target fish species of the Hong Kong-based live reef fish trade are groupers and Napoleon wrasse, but at least 30 other species are also regularly found as live food fish at the Hong Kong market. Most of these fish end up in aquariums of expensive restaurants, where they are sold to consumers for up to hundreds of dollars (US$) per serving.

The live reef fish trade is the source of three of the major threats to marine biodiversity in Komodo National Park. Namely, cyanide fishing, over fishing of adults and depletion of juveniles. As mentioned before, cyanide fishing causes chemical damage to coral reefs through the use of cyanide solutions to stun and capture target fish species. Moreover, diving fisherman cause physical damage when they break away corals around the hiding places of stunned target fish.

High exploitation rates of wild populations of market-ready fish (adults and sub-adults) render it impossible for the wild stocks to recover. The most important target fish species are extremely vulnerable to over-fishing, because these species tend to aggregate for spawning at certain sites during certain seasons. Once the commercial fishery locates a spawning aggregation site, the fishery can extract a significant portion of the adult stock with little effort.

High exploitation rates of wild populations of fingerlings of target fish is also a large problem. the fingerlings are used to supply the developing grow-out fish culture industry. Wild-caught fingerlings are kept in fish cages until they reach marketable size.


<http://www.komodonationalpark.org/images/1pix.gif> <http://www.komodonationalpark.org/images/logo_djp.gif> <http://www.komodonationalpark.org/images/Logo_TNK_reduced.gif> <http://www.komodonationalpark.org/images/1pix.gif> This site is maintained by the Directorate General for Nature Protection and Conservation (PHKA) and The Nature Conservancy, Coastal & Marine Program - Indonesia. <http://www.komodonationalpark.org/images/1pix.gif> <http://www.komodonationalpark.org/images/logo_tnc.gif>
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[Kalkbreath]

They are talking on and on about food fish .............yes some where in there they MENTIONED aquarium fish ........

 

[John_Brandt]

They are talking on and on about food fish .............yes some where in there they MENTIONED aquarium fish ........

Yes they do. There is a problem with both live food and ornamental fisheries in Indonesia. The aquarium industry and some NGO's are, and will be, focusing on the problem of the ornamental fisheries there. Others will be working on the live food fisheries.

Since you don't really care, it's probably best for everyone (yourself included) if you just stay out of the way. You are lucky you have this forum to distribute your views. Take your show over to RC and you'll probably get your establishment boycotted pronto :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Why not challenge my math? Do you think what I am pointing out, even though its the truth is best kept a secret? Why... ? Do you disagree that the seafood industry takes fifty times more wild clams then this hobby? Do you understand that the Asian markets take thousands of times more seahorses? Did you fail to notice that using simple math, one can cut through the smoke and mirrors and easily see that what this hobby removes in fish and coral is so tiny that one has to feel either quite silly or terribly defensive....when presented with the facts.?Perhaps one of the big boys lurking in the background .....can step up to the plate? Its time for the truth to rain down on this hobby....the days of scaring consumers and people within the industry are over.............

 

[Anonymous]

They are talking on and on about food fish .............yes some where in there they MENTIONED aquarium fish ........

Yes they do. There is a problem with both live food and ornamental fisheries in Indonesia. The aquarium industry and some NGO's are, and will be, focusing on the problem of the ornamental fisheries there. Others will be working on the live food fisheries.

Since you don't really care, it's probably best for everyone (yourself included) if you just stay out of the way. You are lucky you have this forum to distribute your views. Take your show over to RC and you'll probably get your establishment boycotted pronto :wink:

8O

 

[Kalkbreath]

They are talking on and on about food fish .............yes some where in there they MENTIONED aquarium fish ........

Yes they do. There is a problem with both live food and ornamental fisheries in Indonesia. The aquarium industry and some NGO's are, and will be, focusing on the problem of the ornamental fisheries there. Others will be working on the live food fisheries.

Since you don't really care, it's probably best for everyone (yourself included) if you just stay out of the way. You are lucky you have this forum to distribute your views. Take your show over to RC and you'll probably get your establishment boycotted pronto :wink:

Oh but I do care , I just dont want to have to lie to others to get my point across. See its clear that hobby reform is more about caring then helping.......and those two words are not interchangeable ..........Caring is of no use to a stony coral in your aquarium or on a reef .......It does not feel better knowing you care about it..........But helping......like actually doing that water change......trulely helps the coral .........Just caring ......leaves the water foul........... If we as the human race waste much more time "CARING" .........instead of directing our attentions tward actually helping the reefs ..........the real dangers to the reefs will continue to mount....:

 

[John_Brandt]

Kalkbreath since I don't take you seriously, you are kind of amusing to have around. You've probably noticed that I tend to avoid arguing with you.

There is no way to realistically challenge your math, because you don't use any. You roll out these bogus statistical scare tactics like bowling balls. WalMart trailers and estimations of coral harvest volumetrics are hardly fodder for genuine number crunching.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Have you ever actually done the math? you might be surprized! I had this CITES walmart trailer discussion many times with many big boys..........Ill make it easy for you since math seems to be clumbersom{like spelling and grammar is/are for me} ...........A box of coral the size of a washing machine is about one ton..............a Walmart tractor trailer cargo box holds about 100 washing machines if every inch is filled.........Thats 100 tons.......Next take the yearly CITES report of total export permits of Hard coral and estimate the aveage weight per peice...... and convert into tons.............then determin just how many Walmart tractor trailers are needed to contain this amount of hard coral?} Then subtract the amount of overstating CITES export permits contain {@ 40%} I only got 50% of my permitting allowed ! Then the real fun begins......... :wink:

 

[kylen]

I am sooooo dizzy. Please stop this merry-go-round. This argument, Kalk, is getting tiresome.

 

[John_Brandt]

Nobody can do math with that stuff. You have a bunch of averages, estimations and assumptions.

It wouldn't matter if you were right about the trailers anyway. Squirting cyanide on reefs for any purpose is harmful to the animals and plants that live there. Coral is a highly-renewable resource if collected responsibly and sustainably. In parts of Indonesia the collecting of slow-to-reproduce corals is too thorough to be sustainable. Researchers have reported that collectors have taken all of the Elegance corals from some regions. The same is true for sea cucumbers removed for the Asian food market.