Livestock guarantee...is this acceptable?

[John_Brandt]

I'm glad you don't care for my tanks.

Scott

Owner Imagine Ocean

Me too :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I think I have made a decision. I will offer no guarantee on saltwater fish, but I will date each fish when it comes in and also indicate if it's eating or not. I will explain to customers the risk involved in keeping these animals, and to make certain they have the correct environment for them to live in before they make their puchase. I also have no problems holding an animal for a week if it's just arrived. A have a few big-spending customers (around 5) that understand these parameters already, so it wouldn't apply to them. However, I think that's a good policy to ensure that we don't have the potential to get burned.

Thanks to all for their input.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

To quote the seachem test kit "Nitrate (NO3-) is relatively non toxic but it is advantageous to control it under 20 mg/L.

NO3 at levels >than 30 ppm have been shown to inhibit the production of planulae in pocillopora corals (can't cite the paper but IIRC that data was published in 2001) and I've always operated under the practice of keep it as low as possible - anything 30ppm or higher is indicative of a poorly functioning ecosystem or a brand spankin new system.

 

[JennM]

I think I have made a decision. I will offer no guarantee on saltwater fish, but I will date each fish when it comes in and also indicate if it's eating or not. I will explain to customers the risk involved in keeping these animals, and to make certain they have the correct environment for them to live in before they make their puchase. I also have no problems holding an animal for a week if it's just arrived. A have a few big-spending customers (around 5) that understand these parameters already, so it wouldn't apply to them. However, I think that's a good policy to ensure that we don't have the potential to get burned.

Thanks to all for their input.

Peace,

Chip

Here's a bit of advice -- If you agree to hold the animal for X number of days, and those days pass, and you haven't heard from the customer, place the animal back up for sale. I've had a few people bail on me after I've held stuff for them, and they don't bother coming back to get it within the set time, and when they do come back they've changed their mind. It only ever happens on something I could have sold 5 times over in the meantime :roll: However for simplicity I have opted not to take a deposit - because if it dies, jumps, or whatever, then there isn't money going back and forth... Some shops take a non-refundable deposit to hold, right now I don't.

Jenn

 

[Fish World1]

Here's a bit of advice -- If you agree to hold the animal for X number of days, and those days pass, and you haven't heard from the customer, place the animal back up for sale. I've had a few people bail on me after I've held stuff for them, and they don't bother coming back to get it within the set time, and when they do come back they've changed their mind. It only ever happens on something I could have sold 5 times over in the meantime :roll: However for simplicity I have opted not to take a deposit - because if it dies, jumps, or whatever, then there isn't money going back and forth... Some shops take a non-refundable deposit to hold, right now I don't.

Jenn

I agree with that. I've had people bail on me on numerous occasions. I also never take a deposit.

As far as the original question. I don't offer a guarantee on saltwater. I don't know of any store in this area that does.

 

[mkirda]

NO3 at levels >than 30 ppm have been shown to inhibit the production of planulae in pocillopora corals (can't cite the paper but IIRC that data was published in 2001) and I've always operated under the practice of keep it as low as possible - anything 30ppm or higher is indicative of a poorly functioning ecosystem or a brand spankin new system.

30ppm nitrate? That is higher than you would find downwater from a sewage treatment plant!!!

Yes, fish usually survive in nitrate this high, but many corals will not.
P. damicornis is the dandelion of the reef. It is a great opportunist, and typical first colonizer in disturbed areas. It will handle higher Nitrate than many other corals.

Frankly, I think nitrate levels above 1ppm are HIGH when talking about many corals. These levels have been shown in numerous papers to cause stress, typically manifesting itself by low levels of gamete production, or complete lack thereof...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JennM]

Ah but we aren't talking corals - we are talking fish. I've seen people running nitrates off the scale - beyond any test kit I've seen, and the fish are fine, but IMO it's a time bomb waiting to go off.

Some corals actually seem to do better with a bit of nitrate in the water, ditto with clams. Also, when hobby grade test kits read 0, odds are there is some nitrate in the water, just that the test kit is not accurate enough to detect it.

Clams do well with a bit of nitrate too... but that's another post.

Jenn

 

[John_Brandt]

Clams do well with a bit of nitrate too... but that's another post.

Jenn

And they do even better than that when there is a bit of ammonia.

 

[mkirda]

And they do even better than that when there is a bit of ammonia.

Baby clams need ammonia in order to survive.
I recall this from reading some of the early Tridacna rearing papers.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

30ppm nitrate? That is higher than you would find downwater from a sewage treatment plant!!!

It is high - however I've seen plenty of aquaria in the Boston area with thriving corals at those levels. I've never really had a difficult time keeping them well under 10 but many a customer sells me corals that come outa 20-30ppm water.

With regards to hold policies -ours is a 10 day hold, no deposit. However we do not hold animals sight unseen. I.e. if someone calls or sees we have something instock via our website then I may be persuaded to hold it for a few hours until they can get there - but otherwise they have to physically eyeball the animal and confirm they want it. After 10 days - if no word from the customer it goes back up for sale without further notice.

We rarely run into the issue of having to hold an animal until it looks better because most new arrivals are Q'd for 5+ days (I don't normally bother to Q shipments from ORA since their mortality rate is usually 0-0.01%) - animals in Q are kept out of sight of the customers - so we don't have to worry about questions etc.

 

[John_Brandt]

I'll have to look at the instructions at the shop because I don't know the answer to the question off the top of my head. (At least I can admit that...hmmm?)

Generally the problem I rule in or out is the presence of total ammonia and nitrite, which stems from overfeeding despite my advice to the contrary. Not very often a sudden death occurs that could be blamed on high nitrate, as my test measures it, but every now and then I get someone come in who has declined a water test, because all his current fish are healthy, buys a new fish, which becomes stressed upon arrival and may die some time in the first week to 10 days. My conclusion is that the existing livestock has become accustomed to the high nitrate levels as they rose over time, and the newcomer cannot handle the change.

(Do I pass?)

Jenn

Not passed yet.....

I'd like to know what you consider high nitrate level (and I need to know the nitrate as total nitrogen or nitrate ion designation). And I'd like to know where to find meaningful evidence that nitrate kills fish.

FWIW, I often see what appears to be false positives for ammonia and nitrite using the Tetra test kits.

Seachem measures the Nitrate values
Nitrate is NO3- not Nitrogen. to convert to Nitrogen then divide by 4.4

To quote the seachem test kit "Nitrate (NO3-) is relatively non toxic but it is advantageous to control it under 20 mg/L.


I'm glad you don't care for my tanks.

Scott

Owner Imagine Ocean

Scott, something tells me that you don't understand what I'm talking about.

There are two kinds of hobbyist nitrate test kits. One kind measures the nitrate ion (NO3). The other kind measures the nitrate component of the total nitrogen spectrum, often referred to as nitrate as total nitrogen or nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N). There is a meaningful difference in the level designation between the two types of kits.

So the SeaChem kit is suggesting that it tests for the nitrate ion (NO3), not nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N)?

 

[Smyerscough]

I'll have to look at the instructions at the shop because I don't know the answer to the question off the top of my head. (At least I can admit that...hmmm?)

Generally the problem I rule in or out is the presence of total ammonia and nitrite, which stems from overfeeding despite my advice to the contrary. Not very often a sudden death occurs that could be blamed on high nitrate, as my test measures it, but every now and then I get someone come in who has declined a water test, because all his current fish are healthy, buys a new fish, which becomes stressed upon arrival and may die some time in the first week to 10 days. My conclusion is that the existing livestock has become accustomed to the high nitrate levels as they rose over time, and the newcomer cannot handle the change.

(Do I pass?)

Jenn

Not passed yet.....

I'd like to know what you consider high nitrate level (and I need to know the nitrate as total nitrogen or nitrate ion designation). And I'd like to know where to find meaningful evidence that nitrate kills fish.

FWIW, I often see what appears to be false positives for ammonia and nitrite using the Tetra test kits.

Seachem measures the Nitrate values
Nitrate is NO3- not Nitrogen. to convert to Nitrogen then divide by 4.4

To quote the seachem test kit "Nitrate (NO3-) is relatively non toxic but it is advantageous to control it under 20 mg/L.


I'm glad you don't care for my tanks.

Scott

Owner Imagine Ocean

Scott, something tells me that you don't understand what I'm talking about.

There are two kinds of hobbyist nitrate test kits. One kind measures the nitrate ion (NO3). The other kind measures the nitrate component of the total nitrogen spectrum, often referred to as nitrate as total nitrogen or nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N). There is a meaningful difference in the level designation between the two types of kits.

So the SeaChem kit is suggesting that it tests for the nitrate ion (NO3), not nitrate-nitrogen (NO3-N)?

John, As usual you are trying to one up someone by distracting the reader from the real issue. If you really want to know what Seachem is suggesting why don't you email them at [email protected] I'm sure they will be happy to help you. Or better yet call them @ 678.961.2003.

I can get you a contact name of someone in their R&D dept. if you like.

I'm getting tired of doing your research for you


Scott

Owner Imagine Ocean

 

[Anonymous]

Can you guys chill out on the quoting of three or four posts - sheesh trim will ya it's annoying!

The Seachem info is right on their website:

http://www.seachem.com/en_support/kit_p ... itrate.pdf

 

[John_Brandt]

Here's a bit of advice -- If you agree to hold the animal for X number of days, and those days pass, and you haven't heard from the customer, place the animal back up for sale. I've had a few people bail on me after I've held stuff for them, and they don't bother coming back to get it within the set time, and when they do come back they've changed their mind. It only ever happens on something I could have sold 5 times over in the meantime :roll: However for simplicity I have opted not to take a deposit - because if it dies, jumps, or whatever, then there isn't money going back and forth... Some shops take a non-refundable deposit to hold, right now I don't.

Jenn

I agree with that. I've had people bail on me on numerous occasions. I also never take a deposit.

As far as the original question. I don't offer a guarantee on saltwater. I don't know of any store in this area that does.

Fish World - Jeff,

Welcome to reefs.org and the Industry Forum. Glad to have you with us!

 

[Bill2]

I'm finding this discussion quite strange. Many lfs take advantage of DOA policies that wholesalers have but are unwilling to "insure" the fish for 24hrs. LFS know the inhearent risks of shipping marine fish and corals cross country aren't they taking just as much of a risk as customers buying a fish for their tank?

Something to think about!

 

[Anonymous]

What DOA policies? Mary and ORA are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head and their stuff rarely dies. I've got a few where if there is a major issue and I ***** enough I will get a credit, but wholesalers usually as a rule offer no guarentee, and if I'm not mistaken MOST of the LFS's in this thread DO guarentee SW livestock.

 

[Bill2]

I might be mistaken then. I thought most wholesalers offered it.

When I talk about LFS I'm not taking about ones in here. You guys are cream of the crop I can't recall 1 lfs in LA that guarentee's their fish. You might get some credit if you are friends with the owner but that's about it.

 

[JennM]

I might be mistaken then. I thought most wholesalers offered it.

When I talk about LFS I'm not taking about ones in here. You guys are cream of the crop I can't recall 1 lfs in LA that guarentee's their fish. You might get some credit if you are friends with the owner but that's about it.

Many "offer" it but if you read the fine print, you have to do half an hour of math to find out just what you might be entitled to when you claim your DOA you absorb the first X% then divide the total invoice by 3%.... and then if you don't grumble and gripe they won't apply that to your next order. I got in a huge fight with ### (Initials) last fall over this, and of course the fired sales rep had not kept records... glad I do, and I had to fax my DOA reports over and over, and I still got short changed.

There is one Caribbean wholesaler who will credit DOA in full, right away, but the vast majority make it a complicated math game.

It's much easier to deal with places that rarely have DOA Sometimes if an order comes in, with just one or two DOA, I don't even bother to claim it - because odds are there is something in the order, so nice, that I can make a few extra dollars on it, and that more than compensates for the occasional DOA. There has to be some give and take - and I'm content with that.

I did have one shipment from my Hawiian/Marshall Islands guy that had something wrong - I don't know if they didn't pack enough oxygen in the bags or what, but one box of fish had a lot of DOA/DAA as soon as they arrived. He took care of me on this, and he's got a loyal customer.

I'd be leery about buying fish from a place that didn't have enough faith that they would live 24 hours. Unless the customer's water is out of whack (which voids the guarantee....), I wouldn't sell a fish that I didn't think would survive long term.

Jenn

 

[Bill2]

Thanks for clearing that up Jenn.

You wrote that you pledged your loyalty to some people that really helped you out when something went bad. I would think that this way of building loyalty would also work in the lfs realm. Not ever being a shop keeper I'm only going on my thoughts as a customer.

 

[Fish World1]

Thanks for clearing that up Jenn.

You wrote that you pledged your loyalty to some people that really helped you out when something went bad. I would think that this way of building loyalty would also work in the lfs realm. Not ever being a shop keeper I'm only going on my thoughts as a customer.

On salt water as I stated before I don't have a guarantee. I always quarantine fish and make sure they are eating and healthy before I sell them. I have replaced fish for customers before. It does build loyalty. I guess I should say I don't really have a written warranty, but I have no problem taking care of my customers.