Anyone have an update about EASI?

[clarionreef]

1 % from industry?
That includes the exporters, the importers, the dealers, the manufacturers, the magazines, PIJAC and any other member of the industry in combination?
1 %...?
That sounds like the industry I know alright.
Most industry members do spend a fair amount of money on advertising. If you could 'trick' them into doing something good with the advertising benefit I bet they'll give more.
You know like refridgerator magnets, a sticker or something to hang on the wall. That stuff counts for way more to most then just giving to actually work on the problem.
No wonder there is a drumbeat for closure of the trade periodically.
Steve
ps. Nets and net training are not the answer to what problem?
The collecting problem or the use of poverty and injustice to promulgate the aquarium trade?
It depends on the scope of your mission.
By hemming and hawing and blowing the training for so many years, it appears that a Filipino 'nationalism and revulsion' is emerging at the mis-use of the issue to make hay for foreigners.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Industry, means: Hagen(Canada), Aquarium Systems (USA), Segrest farms(USA) and OFI(Europe). We got free advertising in FAMA.

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

The one hundred collectors that got the nets got net training by Ferdinand. Now, he, Ferdinand knows that nets and net training is not the answer to the problem.

Jaime,

I cannot answer for Ferdinand on this, but it seems to me that your statement is misleading at best. I don't think you can say that "nets and net training is not the answer to the problem." Period, End of Sentence. I think you could say that "Nets and net training are only part of the answer to the problem." or "Nets and net training are just pieces of the larger puzzle." and be right on the mark.

The way you phrased it, you sound like another esteemed member of this forum. I'll take it that this was not the way it was intended.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, It is too bad that when you actually agree with Ferdinand, that you choose to misquote the intent of Ferdinand's posting. The truth is that net-training is part of the solution, but that other components are also necessary for success in reforming the aquarium trade (as you yourself have stated previously).

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike and Peter,

Please let me clarify, nets and net training by itself is not the answer to the problem. You know very well that I've mentioned and considered all the other issues that must be addressed. I mean wholistic approach, that has been my point of view since day one. It hasn't changed. Sorry if you understood something different.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

I am not going to argue what Ferdinand said. The message is there and each one can get his/her own conclusions.

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, Thanks for the clarification.

Peter

 

[clarionreef]

But...
Some of us talk to the 'Ferd' every day...

 

[Suriden]

I don't think that anyone who has worked in the region seriously believes that nets and net training are a silver bullet that will single-handedly make the industry sustainable, or that it is even necessarily the 'best' first step. It is, however, a great aspect to highlight and hopefully get some action on in this forum.

It's one of the things that has immediate impacts on hobbyists, and on those in the N. American (import) end of the trade. Net caught fish = lower mortalities in the importers tanks and also in the hobbyists tanks. It's often easier to get people involved in things that impact them directly rather than on issues like reducing corruption in Indonesia (another necessary step for the long-term sustainability of the trade, but with less direct short-term impacts on hobbyists & importers).

Suriden

 

[mkirda]

issues like reducing corruption in Indonesia

How about just in the state of Illinois? :wink:
Or the city of Chicago? :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are absolutely right, of course.
What do you do when the chief of police in a given barangay is the main importer and distributor of cyanide? Can't exactly go to the police to report him. And all the net training in the world will have little effect. These political realities do dictate where training has a chance of actually succeeding.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Anyone,
If you have just discovered that corruption and social injustice exist along side environmental degradation? How did you find out?
Was it thru Google?
This intrinsic part of the landscape was always there. The intelligence of using a worthwhile key, ie the Trojan horse model is far more worthy then you know.
Your value and entry into a village comes from the specific benefits to divers and their famileis that some now say is not enough because it doesn't adress All the ills of the hemisphere. To profess that the 'big thinking and big picture comes first' has it backward.
Fix it up in the first divers household and the clan will follow.
Fix it nicely with the clan and they will bring the village and the mayor along.
Fix it up in the village and the next towns mayor and divers will take note.
Fix up a little string of villages and the layers of doubt, suspicion, corruption and impediments slowly start to fall away.
Get the "bigger" picture now?

Wholistic egg-heads put divers to sleep during the "social development as it interfaces with ecological degradation theory".
Showing the fisherman a better way to make money is what paves the way and enables the presentation of the more wholistic message. The more esoteric the message, the more talent you need to teach it. Any fool can give a complicated lecture.
It takes a teacher to make people actually pay attention, feel it relevant and understand it.
Pardon me for getting it right the first time.
Steve

 

[ferdiecruz]

To All,
While Steve aptly said everything price structure and links to reform if we want to save the supply that comes from here we need to face up to the problems this industry has spawned. We all have to move and not wait for the Government to take action. If we wait then I am afraid we are going to face a bigger problem. The reality of a total ban. It might even have a domino effect in the Indo-Pacific area. Indonesia is slowly waking up to the reality of their situation and their corals. I know I have been working there too. The MAC Philippine Coordinator knows the situation here very well. That is why even if we are at odds at times on methods, approaches and implementation schemes we try our best to meet and discuss issues as tiring and exasperating as it may be to the both of us. We need to show that reform is trying to move in one direction no matter what.

Jaime, if I claimed that after training a hundred I suddenly arrived at a conclusion that net training alone is not going to work would really show me to be very naïve and stupid. If I am then I have no business helping this industry. I will just be doing more damage than good for it. Issues must not be distorted for one persons gain. We should not look under every nook and cranny to look for faults to shoot down one another for personal gains. You know, I know thousands of collectors and a lot of sites but one thing I have to admit I was a strong believer of a strong net training and premium pricing as a way for a successful reform. I still believe in a strong net training and premium pricing but that kind of outlook has changed to a wider scope that needs to be included in any reform after running it through an actual model several times. Our basis is results of an ongoing study we are doing. Dante and I will talk about it in the MO.

We are trying to be very objective and we feel that all of us meaning organizations, the entire industry that honestly cares over there must find ways to straighten out this mess. Whenever I participate in this forum I see to it that it is base on what we see, what we have studied and experiences we have gone through in the field and not base on emotions. We hope to have a constructive output from this forum when issues are discuss. We hope to have opinions formed and suggestions good or bad coming in. Suggestions like what Steve is making should be considered. Criticism are suppose to and hopefully should be constructive. If organizations or people do not like to be criticized and admit to their mistakes then there is something wrong with them. Mistakes can be corrected if they own up to it. I still believe things are not really that hopeless. But we are already seeing signs that if we do not put our acts together the ax will fall and it might fall on us here late this year. We need to be solution oriented.

We know the Government needs to participate seriously in the reform movement. But are they not asking themselves if it is a worthwhile cause for them to support this industry? Is it going to be worth the time and money spent by the government when there are more pressing problems that this country has to face? So criticizing them will do no good. They might as well get rid of this irritant. We better understand the present mindset of some politicians, people in line agencies, Local Government Units, and influential concerned citizens? These people are acquiring a deeper sense of comprehension and understanding of the situation of our marine environment. These are people who are not parrots, who would squawk out words and phrases that others try to inject into their minds in support of this industry. They make matters worse. (Supporters of this industry that have vested interest and really do not know what they are talking about.) This new breed are the people who do not feel the burden of the “compadre or utang na loob” system (friendship or debt of gratitude) to influence their decisions. This group is growing in numbers all over the country. Some of them are aleady thinking that this is just to supply the hobby of the capricious rich in the western world while the country remains poor. Questions are being asked again; what actual contribution is the ornamental trade giving to this country’s economy as against destruction? In terms of dollars earned by this country it is not even a drop in the bucket and in terms of warm bodies relying on this industry versus population it is nil. In terms of destruction it is gigantic. It threatens the food security of the country. Already some sectors of the government and a segment of the private sector are starting to think that this industry is just a huge nuisance with a bigger potential for more destruction against the dollars that comes in. That NGO’s are in for the money only and western concepts being ram down our Filipinos throats does not fit our mentality so programs fails. That the reform we have is just a “moro-moro” all over again. The outlook that it would be easier to squash this problem by a ban is starting to take shape again. Ban the trade and make it an example to the live food fish trade might be the ultimate thing that will happen. I have talked to some of these people. That is why I feel the urgency for those who want this industry here to survive to move but in the right way. We need to link-up the reform programs and go in one direction augmenting each other if we want this industry to survive. Forget “turfing” or superstars or we are gong to be in bad shape. Remember IMA was hard put to defend this trade in the past during a congressional hearing to enact a law to ban the trade. IMA and the PTFEA almost knelt down and promise that the industry will reform. Where is it now? That was years ago.

The claim that collectors will go hungry or turn to other form of destructive fishing when a ban is initiated is only a myth, nothing else. When there is a ban, collectors either go into another kind of livelihood or admittedly some would go into dynamite fishing. That is why there are also bans now on the use of hookah in the local government units’ level. Some Local government units are already claiming that it is easier to spot and hear a water spout and explosion. So it is easier for law enforcements to do their job. E.g. In a community I have worked in there are more than 3,000 fishermen as against 27 ornamental fish collectors. When this 3000 fishermen had a bad season the blame fell on the heads of these poor collectors even if they were all using nets. Even with actual net demo the public did not believe in the use of nets. The solution they arrived at; a ban. They still have bad fishing seasons but now the blame is on ornamental and live food fish collectors that encroach in their areas (unconfirmed encroachments). When there is no actual encroachment they blame it on anything under the sun. In these areas collectors lives still continues with all the complaints and grumblings but there is no ornamental or live food fish collection activity anymore.

Contrary to what others might say there is no rosy picture here. No easy solution. No miracle. Some LGUs’ if they accept ornamental net-training would do so because temporarily some funds will be spent in their communities and when it fails then they are not blamed having not actively participated. If something really bad happens like cyanide use they just withhold permits or terminate the program never again to open in their area. Other LGUs’ would accept simply because BFAR would suggest it but with a lot of cynicism. Others will flatly turn down BFAR’s suggestion and BFAR cannot do anything. The stigma is still existing so; if there are rosy description of LGUs’, communities and collectors clapping their hands and feet in accepting the program something funny is going on and in the end this kind of program fails to the disadvantage of the industry. It takes a lot of hard work and the right approach even within the community itself to get the real thing going even just to overcome temporarily the impression people have of this trade giving you time to gain grounds in your sites to make the program take roots. I do not think we can afford to make mistakes now. There were too many in the past.

For those who think it is impossible for a ban to take place should all learn from what happened here when the two last USA military bases were removed from this country. Millions of people and the economy of two cities were highly dependent on these bases. During the debate to remove or extend the lease of these bases millions and millions of people were clamoring saying that removing these bases will be catastrophic. Millions will go hungry, displaced and crime rate will go up. It was claimed that the negative impact on the economy of these two cities will bring it to its knees. That even neighboring towns and areas as far as Mindanao where some vegetable was part of the chain of supply to these bases would be greatly affected. Though millions were for the retention of the bases the majority did not. Most of these in the majority really did not care or know the real issues involve and others were not directly affected. The bases are gone now, people have move on to other livelihood. These places have not perished. They still face the same problems of eking out a living but life has still gone on. Crimes have even gone down and the cities are even cleaner and more orderly. Health problems have gone down. This is now being cited as an example by people who want to ban this trade and I have to admit they have a very strong argument.
Ferdinand

 

[dizzy]

Ferdie,
Thank you very much for giving us such an honest assessment of the real situation in the Philippines. I would rather hear bad truth than good lies any day. Anyone who earns a living from this industry needs to wake up to the realities you have presented to us.
Mitch

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Ferdinand,

You are a person who knows very well the trade of marine ornamentals in the Philippines. You have great experience as an ex-exporter, also as trainer because of the experience you had in the past as staff, working with MAC and IMA. The experience you got during the years working with NGOs is something that will help you to be part in a different way of your brand new NGO, EASI. No doubt you know thousands of collectors and had the opportunity to train hundreds of them, before the last delivery of nets result of the campaigns in this and other forums. You have been considered, by some, as the last hope this trade has.

You now very well about all the injustices collectors have been facing for decades, you also know the damage the cyanide use is causing to coral reefs, you also know the Filipino government is NOT going to get on board to tackle the problem (of course the government has more immediate priorities than taking care of its poor people and natural resources). You also know that the majority of stakeholders of the MO industry do not care about what is going on. Seems to me almost everything is against any real reform.

My question is why to perpetuate this situation? Should we just keep ignoring the misuse of coral reefs and allow the majority of stakeholders of this trade to keep doing what they have done for over 20 years? How many more years are going to be necessary to see any change? Should be said that there is not hope in the Philippines and Indonesia?

 

[clarionreef]

Why worry?
MAC is on the job!~
They've only had about 7 years, give em a break.
Lolita, the L.A. importers, MAC all have the best of intentions do they not?
Steve

 

[naesco]

Ferdinand
Thank you for your honest assessment.

With the greatest respect I think you must take the next necessary step.

Your beautiful island reefs are being destroyed and the poor fishers blamed even though they get pennies for their hard and sometimes dangerous work.

Those responsible, the US importers and wholesalers that demand cheap fish will not do anything nor will their government . Both believe in their Divine Right to do whatever they want at whatever cost to satisfy their own selfish requirements. (eg. Iraq and oil)

To stop the destruction you and Phillipinos concerned about the destruction of their reefs, must push to stop the export of fish or do whatever can be done to convince the US govenment to stop the import untill such time as random cyanide detection testing (CDT) is the law.

Demonstrations by college students and environmentalists concerned about what is happening to the reefs at the premises of the Philippine exporters will bring awareness to the Phillipine public of what is happening to their most precious resource and force your government to act.

We in the hobby must support this just cause by ensuring monies are available to assist the fishers who will suffer temporary economic loss until such time has the CDT and required training is done. Monies should be available from all govenments to assist before your Island reefs are permanently damaged by the criminal wanton destruction of the precious jewels that surround your beautiful islands.

In order to change what is happening you must close the industry down first. Only then can the necessary changes occur that will provide healthy fish for export, sustainable reefs and allow nature the decades necessary to repair the damage that has already been done to your country.

Ferdinand, I have visited your beautiful country and talked with your countryman (the friendliest in the world) and I have seen with my own eyes the damage that has already been done.

You and your country must stop this destruction now. Nothing else has worked. Nothing else will work.

Thank you

 

[Anonymous]

Those responsible, the US importers and wholesalers that demand cheap fish will not do anything nor will their government . Both believe in their Divine Right to do whatever they want at whatever cost to satisfy their own selfish requirements. (eg. Iraq and oil)

That's quite a charge. Can you back it up?

To stop the destruction you and Phillipinos concerned about the destruction of their reefs, must push to stop the export of fish or do whatever can be done to convince the US govenment to stop the import untill such time as random cyanide detection testing (CDT) is the law.

Who is catching the fish?

Demonstrations by college students and environmentalists concerned about what is happening to the reefs at the premises of the Philippine exporters will bring awareness to the Phillipine public of what is happening to their most precious resource and force your government to act.

You expect college students to travel to the Phillipines? Much less "force a government to act?"

We in the hobby must support this just cause by ensuring monies are available to assist the fishers who will suffer temporary economic loss until such time has the CDT and required training is done. Monies should be available from all govenments to assist before your Island reefs are permanently damaged by the criminal wanton destruction of the precious jewels that surround your beautiful islands.

Who's catching the fish?

You expect paying customers to pay for not getting fish?

You expect the government to pay people to not do something?

 

[Anonymous]

Ferdinand
Thank you for your honest assessment.

With the greatest respect I think you must take the next necessary step.

Your beautiful island reefs are being destroyed and the poor fishers blamed even though they get pennies for their hard and sometimes dangerous work.



the reefs are not ferdie's, any more than they are yours,as well.i would suggest that you have as much responsibility to their health and viability as everyone else, including yours truly :wink:

Those responsible, the US importers and wholesalers that demand cheap fish will not do anything nor will their government . Both believe in their Divine Right to do whatever they want at whatever cost to satisfy their own selfish requirements. (eg. Iraq and oil)

i don't recall anyone claiming 'divine right', and how is the 'iraq' situation even remotely analogous, to the PI situation? i see far more differences between the two than there are similarities. could you please explain how you've arrived at this analogy?

To stop the destruction you and Phillipinos concerned about the destruction of their reefs, must push to stop the export of fish or do whatever can be done to convince the US govenment to stop the import untill such time as random cyanide detection testing (CDT) is the law.

what about the other gov'ts? european countries and the far east are also involved w/the demand side of the equation.do you think that cyanide isn't/won't be used if only the us stops as a consumer of MO fish ?

Demonstrations by college students and environmentalists concerned about what is happening to the reefs at the premises of the Philippine exporters will bring awareness to the Phillipine public of what is happening to their most precious resource and force your government to act.

public awareness does not guarantee any type of gov't action. sometimes gov'ts do things in spite of what their constituents desire.neither does demonstration guarantee public awareness, long term, on any appreciable scale

We in the hobby must support this just cause by ensuring monies are available to assist the fishers who will suffer temporary economic loss until such time has the CDT and required training is done. Monies should be available from all govenments to assist before your Island reefs are permanently damaged by the criminal wanton destruction of the precious jewels that surround your beautiful islands.

why do you assume the loss will be either temporary, or one that can be overcome by the present level of assistance available. can YOU guarantee adequate compensation? you seem fairly willing to be speaking for other people here. if no, or not enough aid is available, what would you then say to those whose economic situation deteriorate due to the actions you are demanding?

who do you think will subsidize the poor PI folks whos income you now want to remove? do you think that demanding closure of a livelihood source without your own well reasoned and viable plan to support those individuals affected is an adult and resonsible thing to do?

In order to change what is happening you must close the industry down first. Only then can the necessary changes occur that will provide healthy fish for export, sustainable reefs and allow nature the decades necessary to repair the damage that has already been done to your country.

please explain, in detail, why change cannot occur while the industry is running

do you imagine for a moment that you, or anyone else, can shut down the entire global trade in MO livestock?

Ferdinand, I have visited your beautiful country and talked with your countryman (the friendliest in the world) and I have seen with my own eyes the damage that has already been done.

You and your country must stop this destruction now. Nothing else has worked. Nothing else will work.

so you know for a fact that all alternatives that haven't even been tried yet are doomed to failure? how do you arrive at such a conclusion?

Thank you

 

[naesco]

Rover thanks for giving me an opportunity of clarifying my post

The US industry and the US government has done nothing to stop the import of cyanide caught fish into the US.
Likewise the Philippine industry and government have done nothing either.
Phillipino environmentalist and students need to publically demonstrate to force their govenment to impose export bans until such time as proper training, and a CDT is in place.
Once a ban is imposed by the Philippine government, our own governments should ensure that funds are available for training and CDT testing.
IMO, unless the export/import
of fishis immediately halted, nothing will happen, and the Philippines will continue to be raped of this resource.

 

[Anonymous]

Rover thanks for giving me an opportunity of clarifying my post

The US industry and the US government has done nothing to stop the import of cyanide caught fish into the US.

neither has the canadian gov't :wink:

Likewise the Philippine industry and government have done nothing either.
Phillipino environmentalist and students need to publically demonstrate to force their govenment to impose export bans until such time as proper training, and a CDT is in place.

what happens if the demonstrators are either arrested or killed? do you not understand that you aren't talking about a society w/the same gov't protections for citizens that you and i have the luxury of enjoying?

are you willing to provide bail, or medical attention to demonstrators families, is the gov't decides to be heavy handed w/those in their society who publicly dissent?

Once a ban is imposed by the Philippine government, our own governments should ensure that funds are available for training and CDT testing.
IMO, unless the export/import
of fishis immediately halted, nothing will happen, and the Philippines will continue to be raped of this resource.

again, what proof do you have that all viable methods/alternatives have ben already exhausted, and proven to have failed to work?