Anyone have an update about EASI?

[naesco]

On another note, how much do the truly ethical importers rely on P.I. and Indo. fish anyway?

You mean you don't know this industry inside and out? I got the feeling you had the answers all ready hence your call for an outright ban of PI MO exports. PI makes this industry, you think people make a living selling ORA clowns, Tongan anthias or Fiji firefish? The last one was an inside joke (inside the industry joke) as other countries may have firefish, but they don't have many at all. When they catch firesifh in Fiji, they feel they've caught something really special. What do you think they'll charge for this special Fiji Firefish?

So does this justify the continued use of cyanide and the destruction it causes to the reefs of the Philippine and Indonesian people?
I cannot believe that you would even consider to justify this carnage because it is good for industry.

 

[naesco]

The only thing that needs to be banned, is hobbyists calling for a ban for PI to stop MO exports.


BTW, Canada has added to the reform movement as well, CIDA comes to mind. I'll let you all figure them out.

This is a typical response of an industry in trouble. Continued denial that there is a cyanide problem, trivializing sincere hobbyists effforts in industry reform and ignoring the fact that there is a growing reform movement within the Philippines itself will end in the demise of the industry.
Joining the movement for reform in every way and assisting the Philippine people with their marine resource conservation and helping them repair the damage industry has already caused is a far better survival strategy.

 

[MaryHM]

Silly questions like how do know or prove that cyanide is happening don't merit a reply. Sorry.

Sorry naesco, but when you're trying to convince international governments to institute a ban on marine ornamentals because of cyanide use, then questions like how do we know or prove that cyanide is happening now DO merit a reply. In fact, they are of the utmost importance. Governments aren't likely to ban entire industries because of one scientific study (the only one I really know of is Peter's) that details cyanide use specificially within the marine ornamental industry. "Details, details" you say. The devil is in the details, Wayne. It's easy to see the big picture- heck, any idiot (well, almost any idiot ) can see the big picture. It's all of the details though that must be looked at as well- whether anyone wants to or not. Especially when you're talking about something as all-encompassing as a ban.

 

[Anonymous]

Um Neasco, your really believe I'm pro-cyanide and industry? I was pointing out HOW much PI based this industry is. We are built on PI. If I felt banning PI exports would help, I'd be first in line, but I know a simple ban won't help anything.

Of course I'm not justifing cyanide use Neasco, DUH!!! Come on man, if you haven't gotten the jist of what I'm about, your head must be ten shades of brown from being, well you know.

BTW, when did I EVER, in my entire life, even remotely say something along the lines of "what cyanide problem, theres no cyanide used."? I'm not in denial Neasco, sorry.

 

[clarionreef]

Ye gads fellow importers!
Look what happens now if we don't fix this thing!
All we had to do was just train our people and supply them w/ the right materials. Fix it and be done with it as we have done with Filipino divers in the other countries we sent them. They don't miss their cyanide bottles anymore cause they had training and netting.
So failing the responsible and easy course of action, we are now beset on all sides by critics and reformers [ both in the Philippines and Canana ] calling for a ban on the trade until it can civilize and regulate itself properly.
Besides the simple answer of training people, all sorts of complicated and esoteric remedies will be called for increasingly.
Today one called for a surcharge to generate funding to 'repair the damage'. If the value of healthy reef was juxtaposed to damaged reef...comparitive invoices would show millions of unrealized income generated in every province. Imagine the cost of reparations and restoring blue tang generating reefs near Manila again! A billion or two perhaps?
As a longtime pariah in my own trade for calling for reform...I always thought we should actually do it ... and do it in house. If it is done by outsiders and amatuers, it will cost 100 times more and never be finished or done right. Alas....the call was not heeded.
I'm with you Naesco...tax the industry and close em down! Wait, if we close em down how do we tax em? To get tax revenue, they need to keep dealing in cyanide fish since the reformers have not been effective in training divers. Then the revenue will be ill-gotten money!
So, you can't tax cleanly til the industry is actually clean.
Chicken and egg thing is'nt it?
Lets just support village training one by one.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Neasco, the US doens't have a corner on the MO fish imports. All continents on the planet, except for one, recieve MO exports from PI. The US may consume around 1/2 of them, but MANY other countries are to shoulder the blame just as much. Have you gotten your own country in order yet? Is Canada banning PI exports? Simple answer, NO CANADA STILL RECIEVES CYANIDE CAUGHT FISH!! Have you been able to get the Canadian wholesalers and retailers to stop buying cyanide captured fish? Why not? Has your failure in getting your own country in order caused you to cross the border?

Lee, nice way to answer my questions buddy. I guess I'll give you the same. . That last sentance was my answer, no wait I change it, MAC is my answer to cleaning up PI.

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
If Greshams response were typical, it would've been no reponse.
Regular dealers don't respond, defend themselves or debate. Only people who really care are posting here on RDO...like Gresham.
For lack of a real cyanide dealer to talk to, don't take it out on real reformers who choose netcaught every day in practice....not just in 'talk and post' speeches.
Not all importers agree with the way things are you know...
The strongest case and action for reform has come from inside the industry actually.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz
Thank you for your interest, and comments on my recent post. As the post was addressed to Ferdinand, I want to address some of the points you raised after Ferdinand has had an opportunity to consider my posting and replies to the post.

naesco, the points i raised have nothing to do with ferdie responding.

it is YOUR opinions/assertions i'm questioning/challenging, not ferdie's

:?

 

[PeterIMA]

I spoke to Ferdie on his cell phone as he attended meetings with government officials. He told me there is a very strong desire in the Philippines to ban aquarium fish exports going on NOW. He stated that 65% of BFAR and 48% of DENR were in favor of an all-encompassing ban of live reef fish (presumably this would also include live food fish). I was not able to speak with him long enough to determine how he arrived at these percentages (was it by polling or some kind of vote)?

Anyway, it may all be over sooner than we think (in the Philippines). Importers may have to buy fish from Indonesia (cyanide-caught), Fiji or Tonga. SeaQuest, or ORA could increase their production and hobbyists could purchase a small selection of maricultured marine species (through PETCO). Perhaps if we are against buying marine fish, we can watch videos or screen savers of marine fishes with our computer. If this sounds funny, it is not.

There is very little time left for those who are "reeformists" and even for REEFORM minded folks to act. Likewise, those importers lurking here had better get involved. Support the MAC or attend meetings to support action (like net-training). Otherwise, start looking for other ways to make a living other than the MO trade.

 

[clarionreef]

..."otherwise...start looking for other ways to make a living other than the marine ornamentals trade."
Perhaps this will be heaven sent.
I wanna work for an ECO-NGO.
10 times the pay with 1/4 of the actual work...and a fraction of the talent and knowledge!
In fact, they have hardly ever been known to work up a sweat those guys! [except when attending conferences in Bali or Hawaii].
If it ever came to a shutdown, it would be because of the long running failures of the Philippine government and the NGOs servicing the issue as much as the trades fault. The trade hardly lifted a finger its true...hardly lifted a finger to interfere with the 'reform' groups while they were 'working'.
A shutdown would just validate the failures to reform what they barely understood. For standing by and laughing, the exporters and importers would finally pay the price.
Should'a trained the divers...shoulda just let us train the divers...
If a ban happens...it also means the Philippine government accepts their inability to do what they could've and should've. How did they let it come to this?
They have been corrupt for 40 years on it and inattentive for the past 4 or 5.
Heres the ban the trade battle cry..." Fail, loot, fail, go to expensive conferences, squander, fail,go to another expensive conference, flail, fail, go to expensive conferences, fail......OK lets ban it!"
Steve
ps. If it gets banned....there goes the gravy train...rats. Oh well...the shallower the commitment, the easier it is to just get another job in another industry that "needs fixing".

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, It is interestig that you would adopt the "its not us its them" argument. While acknowledging that (most) Filipino exporters have done nothing, and that the (most) US importers have done nothing (Steve's and Mary's companies are the exceptions), you attack the NGOs (presumably the MAC, IMA, and Haribon) by criticizing their attendance at expensive conferences (like MO I presume) even though these same conferences were attended by the trade that can't afford to fund net-training. How convenient.

If a ban in the Philippines goes into place, the NGOs can close offices in the Philippines and move a few staff to other locations like Indonesia. It becomes more of a problem for major exporters in the Philippines to close export facilities and swallow financial loss. However, I know that the ones most heavily into the cyanide trade have already opened export facilities in countries like Indonesia and Vietnam. Those companies will survive a little longer off of the revenue created by destroying coral reefs in other countries. So, there will be work for the REEFORMISTS to convince importing countries to ban imports from those other countries in addition to the Philippines. It is sure is nice for the cyanide cartels to create more opportunities for NGOs.

 

[dizzy]

Thank God for koi and water gardening season.
Mitch
PS
Peter, Ferdie seemed to indicate that if a ban happened it might also spread to Indo.

 

[mkirda]

Details Details it doesn't really matter. Cyanide kills the fish and kills the reef and everything that dwells in it and its use must stop now.

Naesco,

Really, you should pick up a copy of "Atlas Shrugged' and read it.
Heck, send me your address and I'll send you my copy!

If there is anything that you would take away from that book, it will be that:

DETAILS MATTER.

Your attitude is far more dangerous than you can possibly realize.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Steve, It is interestig that you would adopt the "its not us its them" argument.

Peter,

Steve is just railing at any convenient target at the moment.
The truth of the matter is more complex- He knows this.
Training alone is not a complete answer.
The fact that so many trainees backslid over time confirms this fact.
I know he understands this as well.

It is the necessary first step, the trainings and the post-capture handling and shipping skills upgrades. It gets money in the hands of the fishermen- This is what they understand. The next steps become increasingly complicated as it starts running into CAMPs and licensing and no-take zones and sustainability, possibly even habitat restoration, and Cyanide testing and enforcement.

These second and third steps are possibly more important than the first one in the larger scheme of things, but without the first step, they are just so much words on paper.

Personally, I think it rather ironic that you two fight (bicker?) over such things as whether #1 or #2 is more important, when both are possibly equally important and one cannot happen without the other. You need to bring a coherent message to MO and so far, it is not coming though as clearly as it could be.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Now Mike,
Its early and I haven't had coffee. There is no 'railing' in me but an observation I read again and see no need to edit.
"..but without the first step, they are just so much words on paper."
But thats it Mike. Thank you.
To simple to elaborate on.
Steve
PS.
The post I made was mainly derived from an observation that BFAR and the DENR in the Philippines used to be accomplices in the looting of their country...and then did little to accumalate the requisite credibility to say that they had done all they could and must therefore go for a ban...

ps. # 2
As an importer of conscience I must admit to not being able to defend the trade in general very well. I wrote..."For standing by and laughing, the importers will also pay the price."
Obviously the trade is the criminal here. I just wanted to point out that its 'representation' and 'mouthpieces', its P.R. firm and local police....have all been attracted to and envious of its cash flow to the point of awe. Complicity then followed.

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
He's not going to read it on command.
Why don't you just summarize it and with enough 'bait' in it to make him want to read it.
Throw in for example..."Oh why does he have to fight his battle, not against his enemies but against those who need him most?"

Steve
ps.
My own favorite book which I know will not be read by many is the one that ruined my own economic motive power...
E.F.Schumachers SMALL IS BEAUTIFUL... 'Economics as if people really mattered".
It is a recipe book for those who need to immerse at the village level to understand what will actually work there.
Then of course David Werners WHERE THERE IS NO DOCTOR.
A health manual for village doctors that have little chance to get patients to the city hospitals. The insights there were priceless for me and gave me entry into a Mexican and then a Philippine village where I lived for years working with the people.
I have to smile to hear the wisdom of winning first at the village level glossed over as the mob goes to the area they are conversant in. Areas where the conventional experience is more relevant.
Mike...'training' is a lot more than a simplistic first step. Done right...[another couple of words glossed over too often ]...done right, it trains the trainer to be more confident in what could actually be achieved. As a result, he may not sell out the mission so easily to anti-village thinkers. Oh yes. Villagers are conveniently poor and to be cheated to make money for the middlemen and then the exporter. This process takes place in-country and is incomprehensible to those targeting the importers.
Subsidize the chain of inequity...sure, they do. Create it? No.
Thats a Marcos era artifact that needs cleaning by more village friendly people...to start.
My presentation at MO is about village policy. Failing there, I see no point in advancing to more intellectually interesting phases.
I know you understand this.

 

[Anonymous]

The fact that so many trainees backslid over time confirms this fact.

Huh, funny thing is, most of Steve's trainies did in fact, not backslide. NGO's grabbed a few of them for their own trainers, some left for collecting in other nations and the rest are netting fish in PI. Wonder why that was/is? Could it be they were givin the proper tools and knowledge? I wonder if the white nylon/misquito net trainings could say the same. If you gave me a twig for a pencil and told me it'll do the same job, it would drive me to use a different writting tool. You can't expect a harden cyanide diver to even listen to some city MBA neither, you have to be able to blend in with them AND walk the walk, ie. a commercial diver as a trainer. Just look at what programs failed, why they failed.

If there is such a clamor about shutting PI down, why hasn't any of this made any stir in LA or Manila? The people who do the most damage actually have the most connections.

MAC has a man in BFAR, in the directors office none the less. Being that Lolita is on the MAC BOD, why hasn't there been any cry from them? Sounds like another Coral Reef Task Force boogie man. The CRTF had no intention of shutting down the industry, yet a certain NGO said "the end is near, join and save yourself". Now we have yet another NGO saying "it's our way, or the highway". Sorry if I don't believe the hype.

Hey Mike, you fought tooth and nail over this a few months back (prior to Ferdie's new stance). You cited many things that would happen if the trade was banned. Now, you offer suggested reading and leave it at that
? What happenned to the poor villagers you were protecting? What or who changed your mind?

 

[PeterIMA]

Small is beautiful. I hope that when the reeformists meet at MO 04 that they will reach consensus to work together to solve these problems. I agree that net-training is a good place to start, but that a more holistic approach is needed. I believe that funding can be found to allow this to happen.

If the threat to ban is real, then efforts will be made to convince the PI governement that the alternatives are economically viable. That will necessitate the industry getting behind reform because it is in their economic interests. The tragedy is that this could have been done much sooner. We really are running out of time to implement the changes needed for a "sustainable" aquarium trade.

 

[mkirda]

Hey Mike, you fought tooth and nail over this a few months back (prior to Ferdie's new stance). You cited many things that would happen if the trade was banned. Now, you offer suggested reading and leave it at that ? What happenned to the poor villagers you were protecting? What or who changed your mind?

Gresham,

Nothing has changed my mind. A ban is a horrible idea for all the reasons I have already repeated ad nauseum. I offered Naesco a book to read as a lesson in life as to why his stance is so ill-considered and dangerous.
I have no illusions that he will actually take me up on my offer: His is a religious stance, not based on logic or reason.

Ferdinand's impressions of how BFAR and DENR officials feel are his impressions. I don't have any comment on them- Ask him for clarification, not me. I don't know that the second-party posting constitutes his 'stance'. It is not a step to be taken lightly, and I don't think he has voiced his stance publicly. I'll make no further comments on 'his stance' until such time that Ferdinand makes his stance public.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
P.S. Been enjoying my tank immensely recently.

 

[Anonymous]

Mike, thanks for the quick reply. I will await Ferdie's public stance on the issue, although I thought his posting suggested he was in favor of said ban. Sounds like your tank move was quite successful is your really enjoying your tank now.