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naesco

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As it is evident that Bush has got our friends into another Viet Nam, he and his Republicans will soon face the wrath of the American electorate.

Now than is the time to prepare the evidence to prosecute both the American and Philippine cyanide cartel.

So as promised, REEFORM will begin to gather evidence and present it to federal prosecutors for determining whether there is sufficient evidence to bring charges under the Lacey Act against those who deal in cyanide.

Similarly, the Philippine justice system will be presented with evidence of those who deal in cyanide.

In addition we will be preparing a list of witnesses including expert witnesses.

We all have a patriotic duty to report those who are in violation of Lacey. My role will be to gather the information to present to the appropriate federal prosecutors offices.

On a confidential basis, please provide me with any and all information so that those who ignore the law for their own profit may face justice.

Thank you in advance for helping to stop the destruction of reefs.

Oh yes, I see that the World Womens Hockey Gold Medal was won by Canada for the eighth straight time in their defeat of the US team.
 
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Good luck!!! You been told countless times why this can't work, but hey, go ahead and give it a whirl. Maybe a canadian will have better luck then America's top emvironmental lawyers whom have all ready looked into this and failed to find concrete, solid, legal evidance to get any convictions. Guess it's time for my sig to return.
 
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naesco":291cuzem said:
As it is evident that Bush has got our friends into another Viet Nam, he and his Republicans will soon face the wrath of the American electorate.

Now than is the time to prepare the evidence to prosecute both the American and Philippine cyanide cartel.

So as promised, REEFORM will begin to gather evidence and present it to federal prosecutors for determining whether there is sufficient evidence to bring charges under the Lacey Act against those who deal in cyanide.

Similarly, the Philippine justice system will be presented with evidence of those who deal in cyanide.

In addition we will be preparing a list of witnesses including expert witnesses.

We all have a patriotic duty to report those who are in violation of Lacey. My role will be to gather the information to present to the appropriate federal prosecutors offices.

On a confidential basis, please provide me with any and all information so that those who ignore the law for their own profit may face justice.

Thank you in advance for helping to stop the destruction of reefs.

Oh yes, I see that the World Womens Hockey Gold Medal was won by Canada for the eighth straight time in their defeat of the US team.
:lol:


http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47952
 

naesco

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GreshamH":1z70reca said:
Good luck!!! You been told countless times why this can't work, but hey, go ahead and give it a whirl. Maybe a canadian will have better luck then America's top emvironmental lawyers whom have all ready looked into this and failed to find concrete, solid, legal evidance to get any convictions. Guess it's time for my sig to return.

Instead of being critical why don't you do something positive and provide me with the names of those who you know are contravening the Lacey Act.
Than we will let the prosecutors decide whether there is sufficient evidence.

Take a stand against those who break the laws of the land.
 
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Anonymous

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naesco":3h2l6ueh said:
GreshamH":3h2l6ueh said:
Good luck!!! You been told countless times why this can't work, but hey, go ahead and give it a whirl. Maybe a canadian will have better luck then America's top emvironmental lawyers whom have all ready looked into this and failed to find concrete, solid, legal evidance to get any convictions. Guess it's time for my sig to return.

Instead of being critical why don't you do something positive and provide me with the names of those who you know are contravening the Lacey Act.
Than we will let the prosecutors decide whether there is sufficient evidence.

Take a stand against those who break the laws of the land.

:lol:

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47952
 

naesco

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Vitz is that the stars and stripes I see behind the puppy?

Do your duty. Report those who choose to be part of the cyanide cartel.

Further, there is nothing laughable about womens hockey.
 
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naesco":2zntf0eq said:
Vitz is that the stars and stripes I see behind the puppy?

Do your duty. Report those who choose to be part of the cyanide cartel.

Further, there is nothing laughable about womens hockey.

:lol:

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47952

have you even bothered to read the link?

next time i'll post the whole article-just so you understand what a sniveling snobbish little hypocrite you are :lol:
 
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Neasco, sorry but I worked for one of my nations top environmental lawyers who, along with several other top environmental lawyers looked into this years ago. They found that since there is no legal stateside CDT, they couldn't stage an attack via the Lacey Act.

I know zero about Reeform other then they (you) have spouted nonesense for months now. If you, Reeform, ever tell me/us more about you and your campaign, maybe, just maybe you'll recieve more support from me/us. Until such a time, Reeform has no business asking me, or anyone else for that matter, to join them in there fight.

BTW, I don't know anything about the US cyanide cartel so I can't be of any assistance. I have never worked with or for anyone who sold cyanide or cyanide captured fish nor do I have any evidance of said activities.
 

naesco

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Vitz when the going gets rough I can count on you to take the low road.
Gather some courage and do something about putting these guys in goal.

Gresham what are you saying?
Are you saying that you know nothing?
 
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naesco":2rxg04a5 said:
Vitz when the going gets rough I can count on you to take the low road.
Gather some courage and do something about putting these guys in goal.

Gresham what are you saying?
Are you saying that you know nothing?

well now- let's see about canada's low road.....

April 5, 2004
New Demand Drives Canada's Baby Seal Hunt
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS

CAP-AUX-MEULES, Quebec, March 30 — Commercial hunting of baby seals is back and even bigger than when it stirred a global outcry two decades ago.

Horrified by the clubbing of infant harp seals, animal rights advocates swayed public opinion against the hunt. Environmentalists joined the campaign, fearing that the species was being depleted. World sales collapsed. Even Canada reacted with revulsion and began stiffening regulations on the kill.

Now, Canada has lifted the quota to a rate unheard of in a half century, buoyed by new markets in Russia and Poland, and changing environmental calculations. A recovering market has turned into a quiet boom.

Here on ice patches of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the hunt looks nearly as brutal as ever. For as far as the eye can see, dozens of burly men bearing clubs roam the ice in snowmobiles and spiked boots in search of silvery young harp seals. With one or two blows to the head, they crush the skulls, sometimes leaving the young animals in convulsions. The men drag the bodies to waiting fishing vessels or skin them on the spot, leaving a crisscross of bloody trails on the slowly melting ice.

On the trawler Manon Yvon, one hunter, Jocelyn Theriault, 35, said, "My father hunted for 45 years, so I was born with the seal." His colleagues utter a sarcastic "welcome aboard" as they throw the skins on their 65-foot boat. "We do it for the money," Mr. Theriault said, "but it's also a tradition in our blood."

Animal rights advocates aroused the world in the 1970's and 1980's with grim films of Canadian seal hunters clubbing white-coated seal pups not yet weaned from their mother's milk and then skinning some alive. That campaign — complete with photographs of Brigitte Bardot snuggling an infant seal — succeeded in shutting down American and European markets and forcing a virtual collapse of the hunt.

But over the last six years, Canada's seal hunt, by far the world's largest and commercially most valuable, has undergone a gradual revival that has virtually escaped world attention. That trend is making an extraordinary jump this year, when the federal government will allow the killing of up to 350,000 baby harp seals, or more than one in three of all those born, largely for their valuable fur.

That is an increase of more than 100,000 from recent years, and the largest number hunted in at least a half century.

Rising prices for the skins and contentions that the growing seal population is contributing to a shrinking codfish population have eased the revival of an industry once roundly seen as barbaric. Meanwhile, tougher hunting rules, including stiffer regulations to avert skinning the seals alive, have muted the effort to stop the hunt and eased the consciences of Canadians.

"This slaughter that everyone thinks has disappeared is back with a vengeance," said Rebecca Aldworth, an antihunt advocate with the International Fund for Animal Welfare.

A majority of the seals killed are under a month old, she said, and, "at that age, the seals haven't eaten their first solid foods and have not learned to swim so they have no escape from the hunters."

The seal hunt never completely shut down. After the United States banned the importation of all seal products in 1972 and the European Union banned the importation of the white pelts of the youngest pups in 1983, killings fell to as low as 15,000 harp seals in 1985, mostly for meat and local handicrafts.

Embarrassed by all the publicity accusing Canada of inhumane treatment of animals, the government banned killing whitecoats — the youngest pups up to 12 days old. Now only the seals who have shed their white coats and become "beaters," at about three weeks old, are killed in these waters for their black-spotted silvery fur. The killing of those young seals has so far raised fewer hackles, although critics say hunting methods have not been substantially changed.

The surprising rebound of the hunt off the Îles de la Madeleine and the northern coast of Newfoundland, where the harp seals migrate south from the Arctic every spring to give birth and then mate again, results in large part from a robust revival in the price of sealskin.

Seal products remain banned in the United States, and they find only limited acceptance in most of Western Europe. But new markets have emerged in Russia, Ukraine and Poland, with a fashion trend for sealskin hats and accessories. Fur experts expect the Chinese market to grow, perhaps raising prices higher.

"Markets are good, acceptance is growing and prices are well up," said Tina Fagen, executive director of the Canadian Sealers Association. She said the price for a top-grade harp sealskin had more than doubled since 2001, to about $42, approaching the prices of the early 1970's.

But the revival is also made possible by a Canadian seal population that was replenished during the long hunting slump. The Canadian harp seal population has tripled in size since 1970, according to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, to more than five million today.

Fishermen contend that the abundance of seals is hindering a revival of shrinking cod stocks since each adult seal eats an estimated ton of sea life annually. The fishermen get support from politicians who want to help revive economically depressed regions of Canada, and some scientists say their position is reasonable.

Animal rights advocates are revving up a campaign against the hunt, reviving calls for a tourism boycott of Canada and flying journalists over the ice fields to photograph hunters killing the seals. The New York Times did not take part in any of those flights.

A new generation of celebrities has taken up the cause, including Paris Hilton, Christina Applegate and Nick Carter of the Backstreet Boys pop group. At the last Sundance Film Festival, some people wore a new T-shirt that said, "Club sandwiches, not seals."

But so far the outrage has not echoed the way it once did, in part because Canada outlawed the killing of the youngest pups to follow Western European import guidelines and stiffened rules and enforcement to ensure that seals are killed quickly and not skinned alive. The government requires novice seal hunters to obtain an assistant's license and train under the supervision of veterans for two years before qualifying for a professional license.

The government this year added a requirement that hunters thoroughly examine the skull of the seal or touch the eyes of animal to test for reflexes to guarantee a seal is brain dead before skinning.

"The industry needed to be cleaned up and it was, though perceptions persist," said Roger Simon, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans area director for the Îles de la Madeleine.

Some prominent environmental groups that opposed the hunt in years past because of concerns over the sustainability of the Canadian harp seal population have dropped their active opposition. Greenpeace, once one of the most active groups against the hunt, now says it is satisfied that Canada is not allowing infant whitecoat seals to be killed.

But Mads Christensen, a Greenpeace seals expert, said he was concerned about this year's large hunt. "We don't have enough science, and that calls for caution," he added.

Canadian officials say they will regularly review the seal population and adjust the hunt accordingly. "If you are going to have an annual harvest you have to maintain a sustainable number," said Geoff Regan, the minister of fisheries and oceans, in an interview. "We are going to come up with these numbers on the basis of what the herd can sustain."

Seal hunting is worth about $30 million annually to the Newfoundland economy, which has been hurt by the collapse of the cod fishery. About 5,000 hunters and 350 workers who process skins rely on the industry. Hundreds more hunting jobs are created in Quebec and Nova Scotia.

"I love it that the market is back," said Jason Spence, the 32-year-old captain of Ryan's Pride, a fishing boat that set sail from Newfoundland a few weeks ago for the seal hunt in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Arguing that hunting seals is no worse than "people taking the heads off chickens, butchering cows and butchering pigs," he added, "People are just trying to make a living."



people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, naesco take care of your own back yard before you think of trying to correct others, EH?

Your country is an embarrasment to conservation efforts,and proper wildlife management efforts, thanks to their addiction to the almighty dollar,


:roll:
 
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Hello, earth to neasco. If what I said isn't clear enough then I don't know what will get thru to you. YES neasco, that is what I said. I have no 1st hand, second hand or thand hand information that would be of any help to anyone. Think about this for a minute neasco, don't you think I'd have all ready presented that type of information to the proper authorities? How would I benifit from protecting my compitition? Don't you think that would be THE FIRST THING I'D DO WITH ANY EVIDANCE THAT WAS LEGALLY SOUND? Everything I've HEARD, HEARD is the KEY WORD hear neasco, has been second and third hand information, not something any US LAWYER would ever touch with a 10' pole.

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again, why don't you start with reforming your own counrty? The US doesn't have a patend on cyanide captured fish, PLENTY find there way up there. If you can't even get your own country clean, what makes you think that you can do it down here or that anyone will even listen to you? The canadian market is much smaller, you can't even stem that flow. Where'd your fish come from wayne?
 

JennM

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Hey Naesco -- when you are finished cleaning up the blood on the ice floes off the Grand Banks, and you can jig for cod again and actually catch one, and the Belugas are thriving again and reproducing in numbers in the St. Lawrence, then MAYBE just MAYBE you'll have the gumption to get on a plane and go see the "cartel" for yourself, and gather your own evidence.

Each of us here is doing what we can to further real reform (no extra "e" in reform), and the last thing we need is another windbag full of half thought out ideas and no industry experience, to waltz in and save us from ourselves.

The very fact that you expect to sit back on your laurels, and have us do all your grunt work for you, is laughable. Don't you think that if we had all those stacks of evidence, that somebody more learned than yourself, would have successfully prosecuted the case by now? Then there'd be no need for MAC or any other entity because the legal and judicial systems of all involved would be the watchdog, and there would really be tangible consequences for violations. Any "evidence" I might have is strictly empirical and wouldn't be worth the air it's written on in court - I have not been there, have not seen it, but I can only speak for what I brought in in the past, and what I bring in now, in the way of livestock, and that tells me plenty. However, it's all anecdotal - hearsay.

When you've been there, got wet, seen it all for yourself and done your own dirty work, perhaps you'll glean a modicum of support from me or others here, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Heck, spend 6 months working in a LFS (immediate family does not count) or at a wholesaler, and that may move you up a peg or two on the respect-o-meter but until you get a clue about the industry, please don't think you can march in and fix it.

You have absolutely no idea what you are doing.

Jenn
 

PeterIMA

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Gresham,
I guess you are referring to the efforts by Howard Latin (an environmental lawyer) of EcoVitality (with whom you were associated) to create a case against US importers (for violating the Lacey Act) and against USFWS for not enforcing the legislation. About three years ago, three lawyers worked with Howard Pro-Bono for about six months and compiled information to support prosecution. They concluded they did not have sufficient evidence to prosecute a case (e.g., they needed a US-based cyanide test).

Situations change. There is a US-based CDT test under development. So, Naesco may be right and a case may still be filed against the part of the cyanide cartel that imports cyanide-caught fish from their business partners in the exporting countries. Lets at least admit that not all of the fault (guilt) lies with foreigners. We in the US, Canada, and Europe can support REEFORM by fingering those most guilty of supporting the cyanide-caught MO fish trade.

Peter
 

naesco

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The seal hunt was wrong when the issue was first addressed years ago and it is still wrong today.

Now let us deal with cyanide which not only kills the fish but also the reef and the critters that dwell therein.

Gresham send me as much information on the attorneys you worked with so that I can ensure they are one and the same as the ones I will be working with.because Peter is right.

Vitz just because you lose a hockey game does not give you the right to be smear my country. Lets hear from you about just who is part of the cyanide cartel.

Jenn no one is suggesting that hearsay is admissable. But your indirect knowledge and your experience is evidence. Let the prosecutors decide whether it is useful in their investigation. Jenn, who are the importers and wholesalers that you have heard are part of the cyanide cartel. This confidential information will be forwarded to the appropriate authorities.
 
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naesco":zmt9eczz said:
The seal hunt was wrong when the issue was first addressed years ago and it is still wrong today.

Now let us deal with cyanide which not only kills the fish but also the reef and the critters that dwell therein.

Gresham send me as much information on the attorneys you worked with so that I can ensure they are one and the same as the ones I will be working with.because Peter is right.

Vitz just because you lose a hockey game does not give you the right to be smear my country. Lets hear from you about just who is part of the cyanide cartel.

Jenn no one is suggesting that hearsay is admissable. But your indirect knowledge and your experience is evidence. Let the prosecutors decide whether it is useful in their investigation. Jenn, who are the importers and wholesalers that you have heard are part of the cyanide cartel. This confidential information will be forwarded to the appropriate authorities.


methinks i have the right to 'besmear' (?) anyone i choose :lol:

hockey is a game played by idjits, and watched by idjits-who's yer favorite team? :lol:

what gives you the right to besmear this country? :lol:

actually naesco, i think your just jealous that some americans are actually trying to be proactive on cyanide issues, while you go and help the brutal murder of hundreds of thousands of defenseless animals w/out so much as lifting a finger
 

clarionreef

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Wayne,
Have you not understood anything?
The issue of cyanide collection is what it is because it is endemic to the chain of supply out of the most critical supply area...S.E Asia.
If you buy fish from the places that form the basis of the trade...you are no doubt bringing tainted fishes in. That means reporting everyone...including the list of Canadian, German, Japanese, Dutch, Swiss, Italian, French, Belgian, Hong Kong, Chinese, Taiwanese, British, Spanish , Norwegian and Swedish importers.
America is a bigger place and therefore a bigger market...but in proportion to size....the non Americans are every bit as 'reportable' and culpable as anyone.
The primary accomplice to the inequity on the importer end would have to be the agency clearing the illegally imported livestock. Once they clear em...they are verified legal. If the agency in question is remiss...then go after the agency.
If illegal aliens bother you for example, like the 9-11 hijackers that were issued renewals on their visas 10 months after the terrible events...would not your 'wrath' be directed at the agency that certified the killers AND THEIR renewals?
Philippine fisheries know full well how endemic the problem is as do the Indonesian authorites. They all certify the 'crime' and enable its export.
Still...you are out to lunch on the basic point of the inability to verify that the legal product....was taken illegally. Its a chance...and only a chance that there will be a test agreed to by US Fish and Wildlife and utilized by fish and wildlife to look for something illegal that the Philippine and Indonesian governments have not requested help on. Understand?
If they actually request assistance to help enforce their laws and alert the US Fish and Wildlife Service thru the proper channels...then perhaps.
But...then you have the huge task of trying to convince the Fisheries services of trying to confiscate property of importers who can claim they were duped and that no intent to circumvent law was made. And this is even if the test for thiocyanate would be admissable as a proof of sodium cyanide collection of fish and the KNOWING selling of those fish. If you receive sour milk form the store, how is that your fault? "I was duped" the importer will claim and besides...I'm certified! Look! Heres my "get out of jail free card"...I mean certification documents!
If this was so simple that even you could figure it out...believe me, genuine reformers would've already gone into action on it long ago!
Helping to solve the problem ...[AMDA NET FUND] for example...instead of trying to squeal on people of a single importing nation and punish them thru an impossibly complicated and doubtful scheme would be a better use of your need to contribute.
You will never have importers shaking at the sound of your name...[ the best chance of that ever happening was when Atty. Howard Latin drew a bead on them] but you could help to equip and train some divers so that this issue will become obsolete.
Steve
 
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Anonymous

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cortez marine":2fu7nitr said:
Wayne,
Have you not understood anything?

The issue of cyanide collection is what it is because it is endemic to the chain of supply out of the most critical supply area...S.E Asia.
If you buy fish from the places that form the basis of the trade...you are no doubt bringing tainted fishes in. That means reporting everyone...including the list of Canadian, German, Japanese, Dutch, Swiss, Italian, French, Belgian, Hong Kong, Chinese, Taiwanese, British, Spanish , Norwegian and Swedish importers.
America is a bigger place and therefore a bigger market...but in proportion to size....the non Americans are every bit as 'reportable' and culpable as anyone.
The primary accomplice to the inequity on the importer end would have to be the agency clearing the illegally imported livestock. Once they clear em...they are verified legal. If the agency in question is remiss...then go after the agency.
If illegal aliens bother you for example, like the 9-11 hijackers that were issued renewals on their visas 10 months after the terrible events...would not your 'wrath' be directed at the agency that certified the killers AND THEIR renewals?
Philippine fisheries know full well how endemic the problem is as do the Indonesian authorites. They all certify the 'crime' and enable its export.
Still...you are out to lunch on the basic point of the inability to verify that the legal product....was taken illegally. Its a chance...and only a chance that there will be a test agreed to by US Fish and Wildlife and utilized by fish and wildlife to look for something illegal that the Philippine and Indonesian governments have not requested help on. Understand?
If they actually request assistance to help enforce their laws and alert the US Fish and Wildlife Service thru the proper channels...then perhaps.
But...then you have the huge task of trying to convince the Fisheries services of trying to confiscate property of importers who can claim they were duped and that no intent to circumvent law was made. And this is even if the test for thiocyanate would be admissable as a proof of sodium cyanide collection of fish and the KNOWING selling of those fish. If you receive sour milk form the store, how is that your fault? "I was duped" the importer will claim and besides...I'm certified! Look! Heres my "get out of jail free card"...I mean certification documents!
If this was so simple that even you could figure it out...believe me, genuine reformers would've already gone into action on it long ago!
Helping to solve the problem ...[AMDA NET FUND] for example...instead of trying to squeal on people of a single importing nation and punish them thru an impossibly complicated and doubtful scheme would be a better use of your need to contribute.
You will never have importers shaking at the sound of your name...[ the best chance of that ever happening was when Atty. Howard Latin drew a bead on them] but you could help to equip and train some divers so that this issue will become obsolete.
Steve

why do you assume that naesco is interested in understanding anything? :lol:

he's made it pretty clear through his self imposed ignorance, arrogance, and hypocrisy that understanding anything is very far removed from his mind (and maybe from his ability, as well?) :wink:
 

clarionreef

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Hey !
I was trying to work him for a 50 dollar contribution here!
Then it would be 50 X more then what Reefform has ever done.
Earn the right to complain people!
Contribute something concrete.
'*****...donate...*****...give...*****...contribute' is a lot more productive then just '*****, *****, *****!'
Steve
PS. Besides....its a slow day!
Netcaught fish anyone???
 

PeterIMA

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Hey, Guys. How about the retailers sue USFWS? Then, the importers are not the ones taking the heat. Is that any better?

So what is my point? The point is that the Philippine goverment and Indonesian government can not be depended on to enforce their laws. We in the USA can influence whether or not US government agencies enforce US laws. Write letters to your Congressional reprentatives. Lets start here (in the USA). Wayne can do the same in Canada.

PS-Donating to the AMDA net fund is also a good idea.

Do something other than just posting on this bulletin board.

Peter
 

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