Industry must now face the wrath of the law

[PeterIMA]

Vitz, I was involved with a university professor in writing several scientific proposals to obtain funding to refine an existing test for measuring thiocyanate in MO fish. Two grants were obtained and the research is being conducted. USFWS and the MAC were notified.

I believe that a CDT is needed in the importing countries. It could also be applied in exporting countries. This would serve to level the playing field and shift the trade toward net-caught MO fish.

Before this could happen US agencies like USFWS would have to either endorse it or adopt it for law enforcement. It is still a long way from being ready to support regulation of the MO trade.

I would like to think that the industry can reform itself and that such a test is not needed. But, the lack of progress by the MAC and the lack of willingness to reform by the trade will eventually force implementation of regulations tied to some form of CDT.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz, I was involved with a university professor in writing several scientific proposals to obtain funding to refine an existing test for measuring thiocyanate in MO fish. Two grants were obtained and the research is being conducted. USFWS and the MAC were notified.

good to hear

I believe that a CDT is needed in the importing countries. It could also be applied in exporting countries. This would serve to level the playing field and shift the trade toward net-caught MO fish.

agreed

Before this could happen US agencies like USFWS would have to either endorse it or adopt it for law enforcement. It is still a long way from being ready to support regulation of the MO trade.

this is what i thought, as well

I would like to think that the industry can reform itself and that such a test is not needed. But, the lack of progress by the MAC and the lack of willingness to reform by the trade will eventually force implementation of regulations tied to some form of CDT.

or, the cdt may never be needed to be implemented :?

Peter

i'm just trying to figure out what, other than his mental state, is leading naesco to believe and state that a cdt is 'right around the corner'. :wink:

i'd imagine it would take a fair amount of time, to finalize the accetable testing method to everyone's satisfaction (given that the one recommended seemed to be unacceptable by mac, who also seemed to place the onus of backing up the claim that the cdt then being recommended was scientifically acceptable after it seemed to have already been accepted by the scientific community as meeting top standards)

it would also take a fair amount of time for its actual implementation, after all interested parties gave it the o.k.

there is also the issue of the other importing countries accepting the test, and enforcing it via laws/penalties/ fines

one of the key issues naesco seems to be unaware of is that if only the u.s. adopts these fine practices, it still doesn't solve the problem at the source on it's own, especially if the rest of the world keeps on allowing cyanided livestock to be imported into their own countries

if we stop the purchase-the only effect it may have is to drive prices further down for europe and the far east MO retailers/importers, due to the desire of the exporters to lose as little volume of trade as possible




is there any chance you can divulge who at f&w would be able to confirm being notified of your honorable intentions/work?

 

[Anonymous]

I keep thinking about "The Wrath of Kahn" movie when I see this thread's title.

Thats what we though at our office :lol: Whens the ear bugs gonna start appearring?

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
The difference in a test for thiocyanate being 'developed' by scientists and 'utilized' as an official enforcement tool by the US Fish and Wildlife Service is no small distance as Peter has pointed out.
Jumping the gun and predicting the wrath of Khan gives us a window into your chronic pre-celebratory way of wishful thinking.
The taking up of serpents and speaking in tongues euphoria from a wing-nut faction of the Protestant church comes to mind.
I'm looking for a value in the ultra positive thinking mode instead of lets actually get to work and solve the problems at the source. The notion that the fear factor will compell these people to change their ways is also far fetched. Even with the 'support' of MAC by the cartels...the changing of things in the field has hardly happened at all.
The cartel sees little they cannot master in their own land. They have always 'handled' the goverment and the foriegners who come to change them. They end up changing the foreigners instead!
Instead of fixating on police actions...I'd rather be pro-active and fixate on the social development of illegal fisherman...for the good of those same fisherman. Saving reef productivity and insuring sustainable practice must be a priority instilled in them if anything is to work.
This friendlier, pro-people orientation can actually work and offers a way out. The assumption that there will come a day when you can drop the hammer on the exporters and importers is a very far off and far fetched gamble. There already has existed tests for cyanide in the Philippines and the exporters just went along unfazed.
By the time the Fish and Wildlife Service would ever do what you wish... 4,000 divers could be trained already.
The belief in the need for the 'CDT hammer' does not imply much faith in the MAC process now does it?
I too 'wish' we had this capabilty and that the Fish and wildlife service would use it now...but, I find it hard to become so hopeful and enraptured so prematurely. Waiting for this dooms millions more coral heads as the years will tick by in the mean time. Waiting for MAC dooms millions as well. They estimate 5 to 10 years for their plan to work and repeat this estimate each year. Stuck in the starting gate...the countdown has not even begun.
Thousands can and could've been trained in the past year already. Its just too bad that so many thinkers on this cannot get it thru their heads that direct social training and education of fisherman is what actually works best and cheapest.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Wayne wrote,
"Good work starts at home".
Since he is Canadian...I look forward to hearing more of the good work with Canadian importers and retailers.
Steve

Americans are more than friends and neighbours, they are family and we will do it together.

What say you Steve.

Let us spend this Easter weekend deciding that instead of posting endless posts of reeform topics, that we will begin to rid industry of its dirty little secret and put and end to the cyanide cartel once and for all.

 

[Anonymous]

steve

what effect on the overall exporting of MO fish worldwide do you think a stateside implemented cdt will have?

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne wrote,
"Good work starts at home".
Since he is Canadian...I look forward to hearing more of the good work with Canadian importers and retailers.
Steve

Americans are more than friends and neighbours, they are family and we will do it together.

What say you Steve.

Let us spend this Easter weekend deciding that instead of posting endless posts of reeform topics, that we will begin to rid industry of its dirty little secret and put and end to the cyanide cartel once and for all.

i thought it was the passover weekend :wink:

 

[naesco]

Jenn
I can understand your post. When I first posted that prosecution was the only answer to the cyanide cartel I would have liked to have proceded immediately.
However, both the war in Iraq and the election of Attilla the Hun in California ocurred and as a result the right wing Bush support soared. Many said it would have been impossible to get anything going at that time and I listened to that advice.
Now that, as predicted by the rest of the world, Iraq is a total failure the opportunity exists for America to show leadership in important things like saving the reefs. IMO industry has two options. Support reeform or face closure.

As for blowing smoke you need to know that I never inhaled.

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz,
Its just all fantasy today so why not?
If the USFWS invoked the test and it resulted in confiscation of fish...it would be significant. However...they confiscate coral at LAX every single week and it makes people pay better attention to coral taxonomy in the creation of export invoices.
Testing for and finding positves to thiocyanate 'implies' that cyanide was used in collection...implies. I don't know if that would hold up in a court of law to support the confiscation of property.
When MAC scared the importers with the threat of USCRTF lowering the boom...they were suddenly more supportive of field training. When that was seen to be an empty threat...the heat was off and so was interest in reform.
America is half the industry and as it goes will go many others...especially in Europe. But my own fisheries people at SFO say none of this will ever happen...never. The chance to approve something so indirect as a test that 'implies' cyanide collection by a diver...not the exporter or importer is doubtful. Exposing the agency to lawsuits over confiscating property based on a nebulous premise makes this notion DOA as far as he was concerned.
Steve
PS.
Now, the MAC thing is seen as painless public relations and advertising and the big guys are thinking...why not? Couldn't hurt.
Besides, since only facilities are being certified...it says to customers that your shops equipment is good and the tanks are clean. [Cyanide fish are freely mixed in these facilities and its considered OK...Even though by becoming certified you pledge to clean up the supply and support netcaught fish!] ...All empty hogwash, greenwash and window dressing and the butt of many jokes now.
MAC has joined the system and is basically seen as P.R. for hire...and providers of 'get out of jail free cards...ie. certification.
If there ever were a USFWS CDT in place...the MAC certifications would be used as proof of 'non intent' to do wrong. The blame would be on 'unknown divers'...

 

[clarionreef]

Dirty little secret?
It is not.
The whole world knows about it now.
Deciding what to do over Easter?
I will not.
I decided decades ago to train divers to eliminate the need for negative sanctions; ie.CDT or certification and other police actions.

Several exporters out of Mexico were using drugs ; [quinaldine and isoprophlly alcohol ] to collect fish, especially blue spot jawfish and passer angels. By training 12 guys in the 80's...others got trained via fishermans osmosis. Today, quin is gone from Mexcio in commercial collection solely as a result of training divers properly. We need no tests nor MAC schemes there now.
In the Philippines, the same system can work. You fix a village or two, support their conversion with the right materials...and soon they all want it.
The problems are in the quality of leadership of people w/ the chance to do these things right. However. Their own cultural biases, backgrounds and unfamiliarity with tropical fish and actually doing things right in the field, lead them to go for an industrial, American style notion of reform. Bookkeeping, paperwork and testing....That may work in a country as ours. It hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of actually working in Indo or the Philippines.
The Way is clear, for the sincere. We have to be involved in the field end. The "anyway but working up a sweat and getting wet" notions will all fail.
Even in our countries we test divers, drivers and students AFTER we train them. Perverting the order and going straight for the testing and liscensing without the education and training...is indicative of cultural fear and ignorance or insincere motives...mainly financial.
The chance to be successful and get the show on the road is diverted by years of these Westernized notions and tactics of enforcement.
Pardon me for seeing it clearly from the beginning.
Steve

 

[naesco]

The Philippines Steve is where you are wrong.
Despite the efforts of concerned Philipinos, NGOs and individuals and despite millions of dollars nothing has been accomplished.
We are no better now than we were years ago and you more than most people know that.
Steve the efforts have failed and it is time to smash the cyanide cartel both within the Philippines and also their US partners and you know who they are. Why do you continue to remain silent. Name them! Put them all in gaol where they belong.

 

[clarionreef]

Silent?
Are you nuts?
The entire system is infected and all are tainted.
Its a much, much shorter list to name which importers don't import cyanide fish!
Then again. I explained this many times in many ways.
The serious problem is with your attention span and ability to retain information.
Silent indeed!
Where were you when I was getting death threats from the cartel in Manila for naming them in public?
Wayne...snap out of the trance and pay attention!
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

This is getting to be quite insulting neasco. You keep impying that we're hiding something. I HATE CYANIDE YOU NIT WI, IF I KNEW ANYTHING, I'D HAVE ALL READY TOLD THE PROPER AUTHORITIES. We remain silent do to the simple fact, or knowledge is not court worthy. Why do you keep impying that we know something that could be usefull in a court case?

You want to find the "cartel", pick up FAMA and blindly search for any wholesalers advertising in there. You can emliminate 1, possiably two of them, the rest mix their fish. But hey, thats common knowledge, something I guess you get up there.

 

[clarionreef]

So Wayne writes;
"Despite the efforts of 'concerned Filipinos , NGOs, and individuals nothing has happened and despite millions of dollars nothing has been accomplished."
So you now believe that Haribon, IMA and MAC have done nothing when you in fact have applauded all three?!
I'm confused.
Steve
PS. And why pick on the poor cyanide cartel if the NGO people are the ones who failed?

 

[Anonymous]

Ouch, neasco's brain bug is running rampent in the matrix. Damn you KHHAAAAANNN!

 

[naesco]

So Wayne writes;
"Despite the efforts of 'concerned Filipinos , NGOs, and individuals nothing has happened and despite millions of dollars nothing has been accomplished."
So you now believe that Haribon, IMA and MAC have done nothing when you in fact have applauded all three?!
I'm confused.
Steve
PS. And why pick on the poor cyanide cartel if the NGO people are the ones who failed?

No I did not say that or mean that.
They promoted training but cyanide is still the game.
Their efforts failed
IMO the only way to have things changed is to gaol the felons and net caught will be the game followed with the resultant demand in training.
Honesty will be monitored with a CDT.

 

[Anonymous]

The Philippines Steve is where you are wrong.
Despite the efforts of concerned Philipinos, NGOs and individuals and despite millions of dollars nothing has been accomplished.
We are no better now than we were years ago and you more than most people know that.
Steve the efforts have failed and it is time to smash the cyanide cartel both within the Philippines and also their US partners and you know who they are. Why do you continue to remain silent. Name them! Put them all in gaol where they belong.

Yes, lets gaol them, those dang felons.

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
You didn't say that?? :roll: :?:
HURRY...someone cut and paste the quote before he edits it!
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Ouch, neasco's brain bug is running rampent in the matrix. Damn you KHHAAAAANNN!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

The Philippines Steve is where you are wrong.
Despite the efforts of concerned Philipinos, NGOs and individuals and despite millions of dollars nothing has been accomplished.
We are no better now than we were years ago and you more than most people know that.
Steve the efforts have failed and it is time to smash the cyanide cartel both within the Philippines and also their US partners and you know who they are. Why do you continue to remain silent. Name them! Put them all in gaol where they belong.

You know, if Steve said that, Peter and jaime would be jumping all over him right now :lol: .