Industry must now face the wrath of the law

[Anonymous]

might i ask why anyone currently believes that a cdt may be implemented here in the near future?

did i miss something on the news?

 

[clarionreef]

ACTUALLY PETER,
IT WOULD BE GREAT TO SEE EVEN AN "EFFORT" MADE BY THE PHILIPPINE OR INDONESIAN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO GET SERIOUS.
Our old friend in charge of the Bureau of Fisheries response to the aquarium trade [ and MAC employee ] has in several years kept BFAR passive while "MAC handles it all". That is in fact the federal response. It costs nothing and takes responsibility and a headache away from the boss...so far.
Only the local governments aren't 'fooled by it' and all the leadership in protecting reefs from illegal fishing is coming from them.
Indo is still in the shadow of the 'Suharto effect', ie. the ruination of the federal bureaucracy by cronyism and flagrant corruption.
It has only been a few years since his fall from power and the 'culture of self service and looting on duty' is still there.
Indo is even futher behind the Philippines in giving lip service to coastal protection. Again, all the exciting initiatives are coming from different local governments and municipalities.
Unfortunately, the export permit system is in the hands of the 'revenue focused' central bureacracy and they sanction the ruination of their own patrimony with every document they issue. Imagine if you will if Florida strived to protect green sea turtle while the federal government allowed the exportation of its meat.
At some point, Filipinos and Indonesians gotta get real and work to insure their own futures and not leave it in the hands of a foreign based, bookkeeping oriented NGO. Its their country and our folks are just passing thru on per diems enjoying themselves.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I should have said "among other things" in my 1st post when refferring to why the environmental lawyers decided not to follow thru.

Don't worry Neasco, I'll warn him about you right now

Peter, why say associated? I worked for him, not along side him. I had NOTHING to do with their legal pursuits or possiable court cases, nor do I really know much details about them (and even if I did, I couldn't reveal it to you) I fed fishes, changed water, bagged fish, acclimated fish, set-up facilities for them and did general employee duties. I didn't do any legal leg work, research the "cyanide cartel" or anything of the those sorts. I didn't even handle any money. I didn't even really work for EcoVitality, I worked for Project Goodfish that was run by EcoVitality. EcoVitality has a much broader scope of activities then just MO. I don't think their even involved in MO issues any longer.

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, I tend to agree with you. I was hopeful that some of the rhetoric by Indonesian officials about implementation of coastal zone management and protection of coral reefs presented at the International Coral Reef Symposium in Bali in 2001 would be implemented. Such is not the case. While the Philippines has been given 100's of millions of dollars for fisheries programs and conservation of marine habitats, it likewise has squandered the funds. Nothing much concrete has come from these efforts. An exception might be the work done by Dr. Alan White and his colleagues with regard to CZM funded through US-AID. So, most of it has failed.

At this point hard decisions need to be made by the USA. I think a ban on trade with Indonesia should be implemented. Not just fish but everything. Indonesia is a hotbed for Muslim extemism anyway and this will likely get worse anyway.

As far as the Philippines, there is a slim hope. Perhaps there is a small group of government officials that have benefited from training in CZM, and the legal changes such as decentralization may allow them to finally enforce their laws and start protecting and managing their marine resources.

I agree with Steve that MO resources belong to the exporting countries with the coral reefs. It is not ours to rape and pillage to support the marine trade and marine aquarium hobby. There is a rising tide of distrust and resentment against the aquarium trade and the foreign interests who profit from it. Let's not forget this. Bans to the aquarium trade will likely come sooner from their end rather than the consuming countries.

Petr

 

[naesco]

might i ask why anyone currently believes that a cdt may be implemented here in the near future?

did i miss something on the news?

It is right around the corner.

 

[JennM]

Jenn no one is suggesting that hearsay is admissable. But your indirect knowledge and your experience is evidence. Let the prosecutors decide whether it is useful in their investigation. Jenn, who are the importers and wholesalers that you have heard are part of the cyanide cartel. This confidential information will be forwarded to the appropriate authorities.

I "know" nothing. Every importer I have EVER dealt with swears on a stack of Bibles that *they* only import net caught fish. Statistically I know that is impossible for some of those importers, but I can't prove it either. I haven't "heard" anything from anyone specific, except broad generalizations that experience has taught me to agree upon.

If, as Peter says, a CDT is implemented here, then somebody has some recourse, but for the moment, I don't know any more than the next guy, "officially".

Why don't you use your own experience in the industry to out the cartel? Hmmm?

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

might i ask why anyone currently believes that a cdt may be implemented here in the near future?

did i miss something on the news?

It is right around the corner.

as around the corner as everything else you've said is around the corner?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Americans and others...
Take nothing not sold to them willingly.
The exporters of the country in question must get a clearance for every single shipment with the central authorities in fisheries.
By doing this the government is saying all is fine and legal.
The exporters who sell cyanide either directly or thru financing their middlemen are the ones most culpable and premeditated in this whole affair. Americans do not front money for the purchase of cyanide drums. to break down and distribute to fisherman.
FISHERIES IN THE PHILIPPINES COULD NOT ONLY LAY DOWN THE LAW TO THE EXPORTERS...THEY COULD EASILY SPONSOR TRAINING OF DIVERS THRU THEIR OWN FISHERY EXTENSION OFFICES THRU OUT THE LAND. This infrastructure already exists.
But alas, they have shirked their duty in favor of a logbook system supposedly embued w/ the power to teach, train and standardize hundreds of villages to march in lockstep to one drummer...and deliver a quality product properly collected.
In frozen food industries with modern ships and icing facilities this scheme can perhaps work.
Live fish from poor outlaying villages...no way.

Making hay out of other peoples problems has long been the hallmark of marine research in the Philippines and Indonesia. It may have been good for the researcher and grant recipient but the lives of the fisherman remain the same.
There is a growing spirit of nationalism that may start the thinking of resouce management for the good of the people instead of simply generating cash to run central bureaucracies.
BFAR [fisheries in the Philippines] has terrible habits to break and the Marcos era is far enough in the past to not be so blameable anymore for continued incompetence and shortsighted policy making.
There is an election in the Philippines coming and there may be big shakeups. If the current BFAR chief goes...MAC loses its inside man and ornamental fisheries may move forward again in a more pro-Filipino way.
Lets hope so.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Wayne,
Have you not understood anything?
The issue of cyanide collection is what it is because it is endemic to the chain of supply out of the most critical supply area...S.E Asia.
If you buy fish from the places that form the basis of the trade...you are no doubt bringing tainted fishes in. That means reporting everyone...including the list of Canadian, German, Japanese, Dutch, Swiss, Italian, French, Belgian, Hong Kong, Chinese, Taiwanese, British, Spanish , Norwegian and Swedish importers.
America is a bigger place and therefore a bigger market...but in proportion to size....the non Americans are every bit as 'reportable' and culpable as anyone.
The primary accomplice to the inequity on the importer end would have to be the agency clearing the illegally imported livestock. Once they clear em...they are verified legal. If the agency in question is remiss...then go after the agency.
If illegal aliens bother you for example, like the 9-11 hijackers that were issued renewals on their visas 10 months after the terrible events...would not your 'wrath' be directed at the agency that certified the killers AND THEIR renewals?
Philippine fisheries know full well how endemic the problem is as do the Indonesian authorites. They all certify the 'crime' and enable its export.
Still...you are out to lunch on the basic point of the inability to verify that the legal product....was taken illegally. Its a chance...and only a chance that there will be a test agreed to by US Fish and Wildlife and utilized by fish and wildlife to look for something illegal that the Philippine and Indonesian governments have not requested help on. Understand?
If they actually request assistance to help enforce their laws and alert the US Fish and Wildlife Service thru the proper channels...then perhaps.
But...then you have the huge task of trying to convince the Fisheries services of trying to confiscate property of importers who can claim they were duped and that no intent to circumvent law was made. And this is even if the test for thiocyanate would be admissable as a proof of sodium cyanide collection of fish and the KNOWING selling of those fish. If you receive sour milk form the store, how is that your fault? "I was duped" the importer will claim and besides...I'm certified! Look! Heres my "get out of jail free card"...I mean certification documents!
If this was so simple that even you could figure it out...believe me, genuine reformers would've already gone into action on it long ago!
Helping to solve the problem ...[AMDA NET FUND] for example...instead of trying to squeal on people of a single importing nation and punish them thru an impossibly complicated and doubtful scheme would be a better use of your need to contribute.
You will never have importers shaking at the sound of your name...[ the best chance of that ever happening was when Atty. Howard Latin drew a bead on them] but you could help to equip and train some divers so that this issue will become obsolete.
Steve

No Steve we have to take aim at the cyanide cartel and have them suffer the full wrath of the law.
To suggest that other nations may be involved is irrelavent. Good work starts at home: rooting out the wholesalers, importers, exporters and retailers who are part of the cartel is the only way to rid the planet of this cancer.

Kudos to you for your net efforts Steve but you and others on this forum's best role is to provide the information necessary to prosecute those who blatently defy US law.
It is not squealing on them it is having them face fair American justice and having them pay for breaking the law. It is your and everyones patriotic duty.
Nor Steve need you delve in the legal system for the legal system has the resources to do just what is necessary to gain a conviction.

You and others know who these law breakers are. You know who the cyanide dealers in the Philippines are and perhaps where they keep their poison. Come forward and provide as much information as you have.
You will be part of the leadership that will end the use of cyanide in this planet once and for all.
Contact me, as others have, now.
Wayne

 

[naesco]

Americans and others...
Take nothing not sold to them willingly.
The exporters of the country in question must get a clearance for every single shipment with the central authorities in fisheries.
By doing this the government is saying all is fine and legal.
The exporters who sell cyanide either directly or thru financing their middlemen are the ones most culpable and premeditated in this whole affair. Americans do not front money for the purchase of cyanide drums. to break down and distribute to fisherman.
FISHERIES IN THE PHILIPPINES COULD NOT ONLY LAY DOWN THE LAW TO THE EXPORTERS...THEY COULD EASILY SPONSOR TRAINING OF DIVERS THRU THEIR OWN FISHERY EXTENSION OFFICES THRU OUT THE LAND. This infrastructure already exists.
But alas, they have shirked their duty in favor of a logbook system supposedly embued w/ the power to teach, train and standardize hundreds of villages to march in lockstep to one drummer...and deliver a quality product properly collected.
In frozen food industries with modern ships and icing facilities this scheme can perhaps work.
Live fish from poor outlaying villages...no way.

Making hay out of other peoples problems has long been the hallmark of marine research in the Philippines and Indonesia. It may have been good for the researcher and grant recipient but the lives of the fisherman remain the same.
There is a growing spirit of nationalism that may start the thinking of resouce management for the good of the people instead of simply generating cash to run central bureaucracies.
BFAR [fisheries in the Philippines] has terrible habits to break and the Marcos era is far enough in the past to not be so blameable anymore for continued incompetence and shortsighted policy making.
There is an election in the Philippines coming and there may be big shakeups. If the current BFAR chief goes...MAC loses its inside man and ornamental fisheries may move forward again in a more pro-Filipino way.
Lets hope so.
Steve

Part and parcel of REEFORM is to deal with those in the Philippines. I agree they are the main target. But, it is up to Philippine environmental movement to have them outed and arrested, tried and convicted and placed in gaol for the damage they have done to their countries reefs.

Stateside justice will deal with those who knowingly and willingly purchased cyanide caught fish contrary to the Lacey Act.

What will make this a reality is two happenings.
1. a Stateside CDT (in the works). This fact alone will force the smarter members of the cartel to clean up their act.
2. a change in the attitude of the government which will come after the next Presidential election. when Bush and the oil cartel are punished for the new Viet Nam we witness daily.

 

[naesco]

might i ask why anyone currently believes that a cdt may be implemented here in the near future?

did i miss something on the news?

It is right around the corner.

as around the corner as everything else you've said is around the corner?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Happy Easter, Vitz!

 

[Anonymous]

might i ask why anyone currently believes that a cdt may be implemented here in the near future?

did i miss something on the news?

It is right around the corner.

hmmmm...

well, i just fired off an email to the USFWS to see if they'll confirm your latest rumor :wink:

i'll wait to see what they have to say, given your miserable history of being mostly wrong when it comes to CDT implementation announcements :wink:

 

[PeterIMA]

Vitz, I did not say that USFWS has developed a stateside CDT, just that one is being developed.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz, I did not say that USFWS has developed a stateside CDT, just that one is being developed.

Peter

being developed independently of the usdfw, or w/out their awareness?

i would think they'd know about this developing situation, no? seeing as how they'd probly have to be the ones to implement the cdt here.(?)

naesco seems to be saying that a cdt is going to be implemented soon-it's 'right around the corner' :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Like their developing cold fusion?

 

[PeterIMA]

Vitz, They know about, so does the MAC.

Peter

 

[JennM]

I think for me, the biggest deterrent from even sharing any wild theories with you, Wayne, is that in my heart of hearts, I don't feel that you could actually DO anything about it, even if you had a photograph of the perpetrator with the smoking gun in his hand.

Your past history of blowing smoke has left few of us taking you seriously at all. Sorry - not meant as a flame - but that is my opinion and perception of you - you are a lot of talk and no action. Kinda like some NGOs we have known, eh?

You speak of "Reeform" in the plural yet you are the only known "member"... if a group can be a group with only one member.

Perhaps if your own agenda were known -- since you aren't involved in the industry, it makes me wonder why you would risk life and limb to do this? If it's for the "good of the planet" there are lots of other noble causes, in your own back yard as was pointed out...

It's getting really old and tired, IMO.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne wrote,
"Good work starts at home".
Since he is Canadian...I look forward to hearing more of the good work with Canadian importers and retailers.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz, They know about, so does the MAC.

Peter

can you offer any more info about this peter ?, all i've heard so far are your and naesco's cryptic allusions.

i understand that you are saying that a cdt will be implemented by f&w in the near future?

do you have the name of anyone from f&w that can confirm this?

 

[Anonymous]

I keep thinking about "The Wrath of Kahn" movie when I see this thread's title.