The Right Way to Go!

[Kalkbreath]

Come on Advantage.........say something with substance

you mean like this...

How many hour of the day do you spend squating in the water after show fish ...... "netting" after Clarions Angels?

As I continue to pound keys.....(not walking the walk, but hey I'm a true insomniac as Kalk most likely is to)

...I very much do respect your collection .......and product .......even though you wont sell to me any longer :wink: {holly cr**p it 4am!}I gots to go nite nite :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

"open the door, you let flys in"

 

[JennM]

Ad, I'd say that Jeff is Mid-20s to Mid-30s in chronological age.

Jeff, there won't be any coral to collect and sell in stores, accorting to management plans and sustainability guidelines (*snicker*) if it's all been squirted to death. The only PI coral I've seen in the last few years were huge, bleached DEAD coral heads that some guy was selling out of a truck.. "They were imported under CITES"... I put the boots to him.

I'm not all over food fishing, because that is not my livlihood. I hardly think I can pick a sliver out of the eye of another industry, when there is a log in the eye of my industry.

Nobody denies that the food fishing industry is destructive. So is clear-cutting the forest, urban sprawl, and acid rain. There isn't enough of me to go around to solve all of the world's problems, so I have chosen to try to make the most difference in my own industry.

Picking holes in another industry doesn't fix mine. However if my industry can be fixed, then there is an example to show to other reef-related industries.

I'm sure I'm wasting keystrokes.... I am not sure why I bother answering you, Jeff. I just wonder sometimes if you really believe this stuff, or if you just get a charge out of pissing people off?

Jenn

 

[mkirda]

If you had seen greater cyanide damage .........Just like someone knowing where bigfoot or nessie is located ....you would have made sure you captured the image......Actually this image could very well be cyanide.........And it illustrates how little the damage usually is ......and how it does not effect even the other side of the coral head .

Kalk, the point was to take pictures of net-fishermen in action. (FOR THE SIXTH TIME) Not to take pictures of dead or dying corals.

Based on your argument, you are now admitting that cyanide collection kills coral then, right?

Wow, I feel like I have accomplished something!
This deserves a Sticky!

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

If you had seen greater cyanide damage .........Just like someone knowing where bigfoot or nessie is located ....you would have made sure you captured the image......Actually this image could very well be cyanide.........And it illustrates how little the damage usually is ......and how it does not effect even the other side of the coral head .

Kalk, the point was to take pictures of net-fishermen in action. (FOR THE SIXTH TIME) Not to take pictures of dead or dying corals.

Based on your argument, you are now admitting that cyanide collection kills coral then, right?

Wow, I feel like I have accomplished something!
This deserves a Sticky!

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Actually I am agreeing that it can kill coral when a huge concentration is used .{Like every time food fishermen squirt.}...what you showed was a blemish on a large coral head......Not quite the" blanket of white death "..... Next time you are out filming net collectors , how bout just for fun ........Do something the reeform movement has never accomplished .......Capture on film , the REASON NET FISHING IS an issue!

 

[Kalkbreath]

Ad, I'd say that Jeff is Mid-20s to Mid-30s in chronological age.

Jeff, there won't be any coral to collect and sell in stores, accorting to management plans and sustainability guidelines (*snicker*) if it's all been squirted to death. The only PI coral I've seen in the last few years were huge, bleached DEAD coral heads that some guy was selling out of a truck.. "They were imported under CITES"... I put the boots to him.

I'm not all over food fishing, because that is not my livlihood. I hardly think I can pick a sliver out of the eye of another industry, when there is a log in the eye of my industry.

Nobody denies that the food fishing industry is destructive. So is clear-cutting the forest, urban sprawl, and acid rain. There isn't enough of me to go around to solve all of the world's problems, so I have chosen to try to make the most difference in my own industry.

Picking holes in another industry doesn't fix mine. However if my industry can be fixed, then there is an example to show to other reef-related industries.

I'm sure I'm wasting keystrokes.... I am not sure why I bother answering you, Jeff. I just wonder sometimes if you really believe this stuff, or if you just get a charge out of pissing people off?

Jenn

The coral you save today from having a small white spot ......will be blasted white tomorrow .....by that other little sliver of an industry........And the more attention you give trying in vain to end the tiny bit of cyanide still being used to collect our fish .........the less attention the real killers receive.....

 

[JennM]

Following that logic, Jeff, I guess I should just send a whole freight container of cyanide to PI? :roll:

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

I ordered fish from a trusted supplier this week. What are YOU doing to make it stop?

Your "Everybody's doing it" attitude ended a long time ago.

At the very least, try to stop being part of the problem, if you can't bring yourself to be part of the solution.

Jenn

 

[mkirda]

Actually I am agreeing that it can kill coral when a huge concentration is used .{Like every time food fishermen squirt.}...what you showed was a blemish on a large coral head.

It was a substantial portion of a coral about 18" across if my memory serves me correctly. Tell me. What food fisherman would bother squirting cyanide into an Acropora head that small?

.....Not quite the" blanket of white death ".....

By using quotes, you are stating that I uttered those words.
This is a bald-faced lie.
I have never used that statement, unless it was to tell you that I never said such a thing. The only person making this claim is.... Kalkbreath.

Next time you are out filming net collectors , how bout just for fun ........Do something the reeform movement has never accomplished .......Capture on film , the REASON NET FISHING IS an issue!

Kalk, this is more cyanide apologist propaganda.
There is lots of photographic evidence of coral reef devastation.
In many of the published photos I've made, you can see dead corals on the reef, covered in slime algae. All you have to do is look.

I find it quite ironic that after eight months of arguing this stupid point, you admit that cyanide kills corals, then demand that I provide you with more evidence. Again, I'll be happy to. Just pay for my flight(s) and the cost of the diving. I'll throw in the film for free.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Following that logic, Jeff, I guess I should just send a whole freight container of cyanide to PI? :roll:

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

I ordered fish from a trusted supplier this week. What are YOU doing to make it stop?

Your "Everybody's doing it" attitude ended a long time ago.

At the very least, try to stop being part of the problem, if you can't bring yourself to be part of the solution.

Jenn

I am the solution .......I am the only person within the reeform that is actually fingering the real perpetrators ...........If the next twenty years are again spent chasing a myth..........the reefs will vanish.........As for what i am doing ..........sixty days from now the intire industry will sea what I am up to........ :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Actually I am agreeing that it can kill coral when a huge concentration is used .{Like every time food fishermen squirt.}...what you showed was a blemish on a large coral head.

It was a substantial portion of a coral about 18" across if my memory serves me correctly. Tell me. What food fisherman would bother squirting cyanide into an Acropora head that small?

.....Not quite the" blanket of white death ".....

By using quotes, you are stating that I uttered those words.
This is a bald-faced lie.
I have never used that statement, unless it was to tell you that I never said such a thing. The only person making this claim is.... Kalkbreath.

Next time you are out filming net collectors , how bout just for fun ........Do something the reeform movement has never accomplished .......Capture on film , the REASON NET FISHING IS an issue!

Kalk, this is more cyanide apologist propaganda.
There is lots of photographic evidence of coral reef devastation.
In many of the published photos I've made, you can see dead corals on the reef, covered in slime algae. All you have to do is look.

I find it quite ironic that after eight months of arguing this stupid point, you admit that cyanide kills corals, then demand that I provide you with more evidence. Again, I'll be happy to. Just pay for my flight(s) and the cost of the diving. I'll throw in the film for free.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

The photo you captured was surely not the work of food fishermen ........the size of the plume was far too small........If what you found was twenty meters wide and the coral actually dead instead of harmed .......then you would have found the handy work food fishermen . The blast destruction photo that was also in your artical is also what food fishermen leave intheir wake................Still more worried about the small spots on corals?

 

[JennM]

I am the solution .......I am the only person within the reeform that is actually fingering the real perpetrators ...........If the next twenty years are again spent chasing a myth..........the reefs will vanish.........As for what i am doing ..........sixty days from now the intire industry will sea what I am up to........ :wink:

AHA!! So "you" are the "we" that Naesco always refers to in Reeform!!!



Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

But I can't hold my breath for sixty days.........

 

[Kalkbreath]

But I can't hold my breath for sixty days.........

You could if I was standing next to you and I was naked .... .... :lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

I am the solution .......I am the only person within the reeform that is actually fingering the real perpetrators ...........If the next twenty years are again spent chasing a myth..........the reefs will vanish.........As for what i am doing ..........sixty days from now the intire industry will sea what I am up to........ :wink:

AHA!! So "you" are the "we" that Naesco always refers to in Reeform!!!



Jenn

No, Im a totally new kinda reeformer ....... :wink:

 

[mkirda]

The photo you captured was surely not the work of food fishermen ........the size of the plume was far too small........If what you found was twenty meters wide and the coral actually dead instead of harmed .......then you would have found the handy work food fishermen . The blast destruction photo that was also in your artical is also what food fishermen leave intheir wake................Still more worried about the small spots on corals?

Oh, so now after eight months and a day, you recognized that gee, MO cyanide fisherman can kill corals as well...

Another STICKIE is called for!!!

Which article is this?

And, am I worried? Hell, yes. MO fishermen hit the same reefs repeatedly. The picture I posted showed a coral where 30% was not just bleached white tissue- the tissue was GONE. 30% of the coral was killed outright.
In MO cyanide capture, the corals get hammered repeatedly, killing a little now and a little later, then the whole coral is dead and algae covered. A coral head that can represent 4 to 5 years of growth can be killed by just a few small squirts. After it becomes covered in cyano and algae, the place on the reef it occupies is no longer good for further coral settlement either.

Yes, Blast fishing is more destructive- But you are taking words out of my mouth here. Why argue with me with points I have been the one to make? :wink: Food fishing with cyanide vs. MO fishing with cyanide- If you want to ask which one destroys more habitat overall, I couldn't answer. I've heard to research scientists go at it face to face on this topic, and walked away with the impression that both are bad and that it is difficult to say which one is worse overall. All because it depends on how the cyanide is being used in the food fishing end of things, and what species they are targetting.

But if the crux of your argument is to say that one is worse than the other, so the not-so-bad one should get off scott-free, I have to say that I disagree in the strongest of terms. To me, it is like arguing that this murderer should go free because he shot someone in the head, whereas because the second murderer stabbed someone repeatedly in order to inflict pain and let them die slowly, he should go to jail. Both are still murderers. Both should go to jail.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Mike, I agree that both cyanide fishing and blast fishing are bad. I also agree that it is pointless to blame the food fishermen for using cyanide, while trying to imply that MO collection with cyanide is "relatively" harmless. They all are guilty of contributing to the destruction of the coral reefs and the depletion of the fisheries (MO collection is a fishery just as much as food fishing).

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

To expand on Peters last post:

and this forum is dedicatd to MO related topics, not food fish. If I'm not mistaken, bringing up food fish is just a diversion to the problem we're talking about, cyanide fishing for MO's, SOMETHING THAT PARTAINS DIRECTLY TO THE INDUSTRY BEHIND THE HOBBY. Food fishing with cyanide is bad. OK. Drugs are bad. OK. Lets give the food fish a rest as we have no stake in their industry. I suggest those who want to continue to talk about food fishing, to please find a forum where others want to discuss it with you. Continually bringing it up, is just using it as an exscuse not to talk about WHAT OUR INDUSTRY IS DOING AND HOW WE CAN CHANGE IT. PM Dogfish Head, he seems to know Food Fishing quite well, maybe he can turn you onto a forum that discusses food fishing with cyanide.

 

[Dogfish Head]

Haven't posted in a long while (just "lurked") since I get the feeling that the opinions of people who are not aquarium fish traffickers are not valued very highly in this forum, but since someone asked for info on live reef food fish sources on the web, here are some:

There are indeed some resources on the live reef food fish trade online, although no discussion forums that I know of. SPC (Secretariat of the Pacific Community) used to have a list server, but I don't think it is active these days. Go to www.conserveonline.org and search for live reef food fish trade and you will turn up a lot of documents. The 2001 "Collaborative Strategy for the Live Reef Food Fish Trade" document has a lot of information, as do the posted papers from some workshops that MAC and TNC have organized as part of their live reef food fish standards projects (yes, I know, they are evil "Eco-NGOs"). The SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin has lots of articles on this topic, and links, but they haven't published an issue since April 2003. All past editions are available in PDF on their website. NACA has lots and lots of info on grouper aquaculture, and links as well.

Fishing for groupers with cyanide does indeed appear to be pretty widespread in Southeast Asia, although some researchers argue that it is the extreme overfishing, esp of spawning aggregations, that is the greatest problem, and cyanide just helps make that overfishing more efficient (although you don't need cyanide to catch them in an aggregration!) Napoleon wrasse are so dumb that one observer saw fishers in Kiribati catching them by hanging over the front of a banca and putting hooks in their mouths by hand, or so I heard.

Cyanide fishing is bad, whatever you are catching with it. I guess one difference between MOs and live food fish is that there is that there is more potential for pressure from MO consumers and traffickers to clean up the act since long-term survival is more of an issue for MOs (live reef food fish only have to live long enough to get to HK and get cooked), and there is more of an environmental sensitivity, or so goes the conventional wisdom, among western consumers than there is among consumers in HK and adjacent areas of southern China (where they eat all manner of wild creatures, no matter how endangered).

The MAC-TNC effort to get industry interested in best practice standards is an attempt to prove this conventional wisdom wrong by trying to show how people can make money on this fishery while doing it without cyanide and limits on effort (as is the case in the Australia plectropomus leopardus fishery). Given the fact that MAC is so reviled in this forum, you may dismiss this effort as just another money grab by some evil eco-NGOs, but I don't see anyone else out there actually engaging with the industry people and trying to get them to change.

At a minimum, the effort has at least gotten the World Bank and the government of Indonesia talking about the issue in the development of a big coral reef loan/grant that is being finalized for Indonesia.

Some people say "just ban the trade" in live reef food fish, but that view reveals considerable naivete about the capacities of the governments in Indonesia, the Philippines and Vietnam. They do not have the capacity, political will, or resources to even effectively enforce existing bans on illegal logging, terrestrial wildlife smuggling (which is an epidemic), etc. Indonesia is currently proposing completely closing the land border between Kalimantan and Malaysia as a last-ditch effort to stem the flow of illegal logs, but it won't work because Indonesia doesn't have anywhere near the capacity to police that border.

Live reef food fish catches and exports are not even really recorded by the government.

Hope this is all useful.

 

[Anonymous]

Did I decloak you, Dogfish Head? Excellent post!!

All opinions are welcome, thanks for the info. I've read the SPC site from head to toe many times a few months ago. Now thats a site filled with info.

I wasn't trying so quelsh anyones opinion. I was trying to get the topic back to what we can actually effect. We should all know the state of our planet and should strive to learn more about it. Theres many places on the net to find and talk about many different topics. This forum is about the industry behind our (MO's) hobby. I know we keep many of the same fish that are caught as food fish. I also know almost all fisheries on this planet are in poor shape. Some of the root problems are so massive that I wonder if we can ever get them under controll. But, now thats talk for another forum, sorry .

 

[Kalkbreath]

Mike, I agree that both cyanide fishing and blast fishing are bad. I also agree that it is pointless to blame the food fishermen for using cyanide, while trying to imply that MO collection with cyanide is "relatively" harmless. They all are guilty of contributing to the destruction of the coral reefs and the depletion of the fisheries (MO collection is a fishery just as much as food fishing).

Peter

Boat anchoring and recreational divers touching the coral also contribute to coral decline and even net collection of fish depletes fish stocks ......the question is how much ........there are many places where recreational divers and tourists have killed the live coral by touching it.........should these people go to jail just like cyanide fishermen ? ........Again the question is how much damage .....Food fishing with cyanide is fifty times greater then our industry .....even if every single hobby fish is juice collected {which only about ten percent are }Three million tiny reef fish verses 50,000 tones ? .........Thirty-six kilos of food fish are collected per capita in PI for export.......THATS 80 million times 36.Kilos .....Thats ten trash cans full of fish compared to one damsel .........Peter , what were the test results on green Chromis, clownfish, and damsels?What percent tested for present?