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clarionreef

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Below is a letter from the AMDA BOD to the general membership and the public at large.


Dear AMDA members,

During the past year your AMDA board of directors has worked to resolve two important issues facing our business. The first relates to the impact of marine ornamental fishing on the environment. The second centers on E-Commerce’s growth and its subsequent detriment to brick-and-mortar retailers – the predominant group within our association.

During the first part of 2003, your AMDA board worked to investigate the problems related to the acquisition of healthy animals for our retail trade. One of the charter responsibilities of the AMDA organization is to seek ways to protect the environment and create a sustainable fishery for the animals we sell in our shops. There are many facets to this mandate that involve wild caught and lab or farm raised animals for the trade. For now, we turn our attention to the wild caught part of our trade.

Since we are users of a resource and the resource found in the tropical areas of the world (of which the United States is not a part), we lack the necessary political leverage to effectively promote environmental protection. What we can do, however, is promote the purchase of fish from organizations or villages devoted to good fish husbandry after capture and appropriate catching techniques.

Your board believes that we have an innate responsibility to do what we can to establish networking relationships with the fishermen and shippers in these countries, and help wherever we can to engender good collection practices for ornamental marine animals no matter where it is. We have hoped that distributors in this country would do more to stem the continued use of cyanide and poor handling and shipping, but that does not seem to be happening to any great extent.

In order to get a better understanding of the current situation, we sent our president Steve Robinson to the Philippines to investigate possible solutions to the gross destruction of the environment food fish trade and to a lesser extent the impact of the ornamental fish trade. For years, various well-meaning organizations have tried to correct this using all sorts of grants and words to no avail. Your board has come to the conclusion that on site training, making proper equipment available directly to the fishermen, and frequent site inspection is the only way to assure that our desires as customers are being met.

As a group, AMDA needs to be committed to the concept that we should not support those that do not protect their resource. And as customers, we need to impose our will and believe that our will is beneficial to the environment and the establishment of good husbandry practices at the catch sites.

Since Steve has had extensive experience in field collecting, and understands the issues involved in the endeavor, we thought a tour of an area in the Philippines would help us understand the breadth of the existing problem.

As part of the trip, AMDA bought and delivered a small amount of hand netting to the fishermen of the Philippines. They were thankful for the gesture and it illuminated the need for someone to help organize a disparate industry that needs to do its part in preventing damage to the coral reefs of the Philippines. We found that appropriate equipment was not made available to the fishermen, but there was no shortage of cyanide for them to buy.

The process of collecting, holding, transporting to shipping hubs, and the subsequent delivery to the United States is arduous for fish and fisherman alike. Steve's trip certainly expanded our knowledge of the complexity of the issues at hand and in the future we will try to educate our members as well.

The concept of net-caught vs. cyanide or chemical caught fish has been a topic of discussion amongst hobbyists and professional aquarium people for many years. For some unknown reason the food industry in the Philippines and Indonesia has not questioned this reprehensible fishing practice. The AMDA board believes that the only way we will ever achieve cooperation in regards to cyanide use is to have established delegates that answer to our needs within the laws of the land in the areas where our fish are caught, held, and delivered. The issues are not just in the procurement of fish. Handling and shipping procedures also need supervision, and it appears that this area of the chain of custody is actually equally as problematic as cyanide fishing.

As a follow-up mission, two AMDA board members have been involved in establishing a village in Bali to produce only net caught fish (Burton Patrick of Pet Supplies "Plus" in Pittsburgh and Steve Robinson of Cortez Marine). This village, through their own determination and Steve's training in the village, completely switched to net caught fish. Unfortunately the saga does not end there. Training the village to hold and ship the fish successfully to the States will be the next project and the final step toward more successful marine fish keeping at the retail level.

The second area of concern for your AMDA board is to define retail concerns at home. Brick-and-mortar retailers are stuck in the trenches - face to face with their customers every day and serving as the cornerstone of the education in the hobby; it is upon the backs of these retailers that the business is built. It isn't the mass merchants that cherry pick a few fast turning items like marine salt or E-Commerce that supplies the expensive and easy to ship hard goods, leaving local retailers to bear the burden of hard-to-ship and low-margin items left by the cherry-pickers.

We have not talked to a retailer that isn't tired of finding remedies for the mass merchant and E-tailers - and still not get the sales to warrant the effort. These mass merchants merely start their customers, who inevitably fail and become disillusioned with the hobby because they were originally given faulty or non-existent advice. E-Commerce and mass merchants (Petco and PetsMart are a part of the mix) know very little about the animals they sell. Just because a body in a far away place can write an animal care article for a corporate website, doesn't mean anybody in the stores servicing those customers knows anything about it.

It is also our belief that the bulk of AMDA members are bricks and mortar retailers and that e-commerce and mass merchants are taking advantage of their efforts without paying their dues. Bricks and mortar retailers pay high rents, high local taxes, have high payrolls and payroll taxes to service customers and keep their stores looking presentable for the public. All of these things have to be paid through sales of pet supplies. Taking away the ability to compete in selling pet supplies under the guise of free enterprise is to ignore that your neighborhood store is taxed to death while e-commerce is given benefits they have not earned.

In contrast to the local retailer, the e-commerce company doesn't have to worry about algae or a little slop on the floor. They don't get sued by every Tom, Dick, and Harry that walks in the door, up a curb or over a speed bump. They also don't have to worry about spending $2500 a winter salting parking lots or removing snow.

We sell hard-to-move aquariums at very low margins. We have to provide the help to get these bulky items into their cars or even deliver them - oftentimes for very little or no compensation. We provide the salt, the frozen food, and the live food; none of which are profitable enough to pay labor, rents, and taxes. We provide these services as part of the whole business, but people who don’t provide these services are whittling away our profitability. Obviously some things will have to change.

City and commuter taxes penalize employees who work in the city. Sales tax is mandated by states to be collected by local retail, yet interstate E-Commerce oftentimes boasts of the government’s inability to tax them. Local business has audits for use tax. Local businesses pay permit fees to have scales, pricing scanners, and point of sale systems. Local business pays township taxes based on gross sales. E-Commerce may eventually be forced to adopt these burdens as well, but they won’t have to take possession of their “inventory.” Many times the products are drop shipped from distributors and manufacturers without the company ever taking possession or paying the taxes on the gross sale.

We sign leases for 5 and 10 years on real estate that a government can close for road construction for months without compensation. We are part of the community that expects us to be a part of that community. We are visible center of commerce and we must keep our facilities scrupulously clean at all times. We are always in the public's eye and responsible to our customers on a moments notice. And most importantly, we create the business upon which the e-commerce businesses are built.

While we hoe the fields, our E-Commerce comrades sit lazily in the woods enjoying the good life and laughing at us for doing all the work while they enjoy the benefits of our labors… without working too hard at it.

For the above reasons we believe that companies that are major players in E-Commerce should not be a part of AMDA. This includes livestock, hard-goods distributors, and manufacturers. Livestock companies in particular cannot be fully functional without the local retailer acting as support. They may sell some things cheaper, but this would become a very expensive hobby, and it would shrink considerably, if everything were to be purchased via the Internet.

The states then would want to collect use tax, freight companies would be doing well, and E-Commerce would be spread throughout the areas without anybody to initiate an interest in the hobby.

Additionally we believe that distributors to AMDA members should not sell to people that do not have a wholesale license for the retail pet trade. Producers of livestock have the same responsibility to the organization as the livestock distributor. They cannot sell direct to the public.

In return, the AMDA member should at all times support those distributors that support the retail trade. We are not intending to influence competition, but to support those that create the hobby for the benefit of all. Since we are primarily a retail group, we believe our focus needs to be on retail and not supporting those companies that play both ends of this.

We would certainly like to hear any comments you have regarding these issues. If you would take a moment to write to the board regarding your feelings in these areas it would help us to represent the overall position of your organization.

Burton Patrick
AMDA BOD, Director at Large
 
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Anonymous

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Interesting post. Helps one understand the perspective of the LFS.
 

naesco

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I have long maintained that it is not a level playing field and your well written post confirms this.

IMO as LFS you must distinguish yourself from the online types but to do so you must take affirmative action.

AMDA must support efforts to stop the import of cyanide caught fish from the Philippine and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant and support efforts to have indictments laid against members of the cyanide cartel both stateside and in P/I.
You put these guys out of business and you stop the tonnes and tonnes of cheap cyanide caught fish entering the US market competing with you.

Further you protect your investment and your income because without serious industry wide voluntary reeform, the government will eventually step in and the possibility of closure or at the minimum, serious restrictions in the way business is carried out in very likely.

Onsite visits, a few nets and a little training is nice but will never assist the mom and dad shops struggling to make a living.
The cyanide cartel must be stopped and they happen to be your competition. Stop them before they put you out of business.
 
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burton:

rdo_welcome.gif



and welcome to naesco :wink:


very well said

though i'm not sure how a b&m vs. internet 'war' may play out :wink:
 
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A few comments/questions:

Burton Patrick of AMDA":2l2kb9zq said:
...As a follow-up mission, two AMDA board members have been involved in establishing a village in Bali to produce only net caught fish (Burton Patrick of Pet Supplies "Plus" in Pittsburgh and Steve Robinson of Cortez Marine)...

...E-Commerce and mass merchants (Petco and PetsMart are a part of the mix) know very little about the animals they sell. Just because a body in a far away place can write an animal care article for a corporate website, doesn't mean anybody in the stores servicing those customers knows anything about it...

How does Pet Supplies "Plus" differ from Petco and PetsMart? Superficially all three chains appear to be very similar. Why should Pet Supplies "Plus" get the "thumbs up" and Petco and PetsMart get the "thumbs down"?

Burton Patrick of AMDA":2l2kb9zq said:
...What we can do, however, is promote the purchase of fish from organizations or villages devoted to good fish husbandry after capture and appropriate catching techniques...

...Your board has come to the conclusion that on site training, making proper equipment available directly to the fishermen, and frequent site inspection is the only way to assure that our desires as customers are being met...

...As a group, AMDA needs to be committed to the concept that we should not support those that do not protect their resource. And as customers, we need to impose our will and believe that our will is beneficial to the environment and the establishment of good husbandry practices at the catch sites...

If the above process is implemented from point of collection to retail it will no doubt create what will be represented by the retailer to the customer as an "inferred warranty" of an ethically superior product. Exactly how will this differ from the existing certification processes that have been blasted on this forum? It seems that this process could suffer from many of the same potential shortcomings that have been expressed towards currently existing certification processes. For instance, if the retailer is forced to buy Paracanthurus hepatus from both the "clean supplier" in Bali and another collection area in order to meet customer demand, how could one be assured that the fish were not mixed and possibly misrepresented? How could the retailer be assured that this might not happen at the importer level? Also, what could be said about the sustainability of the animals?

Competing quality assuarance processes would no doubt be a good thing for the consumer. However, how could the consumer know which quality assurance process was superior, other than by comparisons of the ultimate health of the livestock when in their tank?
 
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Anonymous

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SciGuy2":wk6sd1rg said:
A few comments/questions:

Burton Patrick of AMDA":wk6sd1rg said:
...As a follow-up mission, two AMDA board members have been involved in establishing a village in Bali to produce only net caught fish (Burton Patrick of Pet Supplies "Plus" in Pittsburgh and Steve Robinson of Cortez Marine)...

...E-Commerce and mass merchants (Petco and PetsMart are a part of the mix) know very little about the animals they sell. Just because a body in a far away place can write an animal care article for a corporate website, doesn't mean anybody in the stores servicing those customers knows anything about it...

How does Pet Supplies "Plus" differ from Petco and PetsMart? Superficially all three chains appear to be very similar. Why should Pet Supplies "Plus" get the "thumbs up" and Petco and PetsMart get the "thumbs down"?

Burton Patrick of AMDA":wk6sd1rg said:
...What we can do, however, is promote the purchase of fish from organizations or villages devoted to good fish husbandry after capture and appropriate catching techniques...

...Your board has come to the conclusion that on site training, making proper equipment available directly to the fishermen, and frequent site inspection is the only way to assure that our desires as customers are being met...

...As a group, AMDA needs to be committed to the concept that we should not support those that do not protect their resource. And as customers, we need to impose our will and believe that our will is beneficial to the environment and the establishment of good husbandry practices at the catch sites...

If the above process is implemented from point of collection to retail it will no doubt create what will be represented by the retailer to the customer as an "inferred warranty" of an ethically superior product. Exactly how will this differ from the existing certification processes that have been blasted on this forum? It seems that this process could suffer from many of the same potential shortcomings that have been expressed towards currently existing certification processes. For instance, if the retailer is forced to buy Paracanthurus hepatus from both the "clean supplier" in Bali and another collection area in order to meet customer demand, how could one be assured that the fish were not mixed and possibly misrepresented? How could the retailer be assured that this might not happen at the importer level? Also, what could be said about the sustainability of the animals?

Competing quality assuarance processes would no doubt be a good thing for the consumer. However, how could the consumer know which quality assurance process was superior, other than by comparisons of the ultimate health of the livestock when in their tank?

why is there an 'inferred warranty'?

there is a big difference between a 'certified' product and one that is 'known' to be ethically caught

why would 'ethically caught' necessarily mean ,(or claim to mean)'greater survivability?

i never saw ethically caught as meaning an implied greater survivability, rather, i saw it as meaning 'ethically caught' :?
 
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Vitz, let's skip the cross-examination of word selection and other minutia and address how the initially discussed process could guarantee a superior product to the consumer and a healthier reef than other, existing quality assurance processes.
 
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Lee, Pet Supplies "Plus" isn't a chain store like Petco, Petclub and Petsmart that are owned by a mother corperatio0n (Petco Field, home of the San Diego Padres)\. They're a franchise with each store owned by individuals. Its a difference.
 

MaryHM

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If AMDA members don't buy from importers/wholesalers that sell to people who do not have a retail storefront (be it direct to hobbyist or some guy with a business license for XYZ Construction, or some guy running a fish biz out of his garage) or do not support etailers either directly or indirectly, then all I have to say is good luck finding a supplier. Maybe transshippers can help out these AMDA members. :roll:
 

dizzy

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Mary,
I see it differently. I believe that taking steps to help legitimate retailers will grow the AMDA membership. As the membership grows we will have a great cumulative purchasing power. I believe there will be wholesalers who will want to sell to this group. You can ship out your orders one box at a time, to people who may only order once or twice, or you can cater to a group that makes very large purchases on a weekly basis. The choice is yours.
Mitch Gibbs
 
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Anonymous

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how would it be possible to verify that a wholesaler/importer WASN'T selling to 'drop ship etailers' ?
 

dizzy

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vitz":1msqwsgp said:
how would it be possible to verify that a wholesaler/importer WASN'T selling to 'drop ship etailers' ?

We have a vast network of sleeper moles already in place. :wink:
 
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dizzy":1bmnfcee said:
vitz":1bmnfcee said:
how would it be possible to verify that a wholesaler/importer WASN'T selling to 'drop ship etailers' ?

We have a vast network of sleeper moles already in place. :wink:


:lol:
 

MaryHM

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You can ship out your orders one box at a time, to people who may only order once or twice, or you can cater to a group that makes very large purchases on a weekly basis. The choice is yours.

LOL- That's almost comical!!! I served on the board of AMDA for almost 2 years, during which time I heavily promoted net caught fish, was extremely picky to insure that people faxing over a business license had a retail storefront, and did not ship to hobbyists. Support from the AMDA membership was basically non-existent, which was quite interesting seeing how me and Segrest were the only importer/wholesaler members. One thing the AMDA board needs to keep in mind is that the membership isn't always of a like mind of the board. Of course no retail store is going to argue with what you're saying because it does make sense. But when it comes to putting fish in the tanks, $$$ talks and high-hope agendas walk. Been there, done that, Mitch.
 

clarionreef

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Mary,
This is a blueprint for reform...
not a done deal.
After 15 years of so-called reform activity and most recently MAC-reform activity...the disgrace is...that there are no clean suppliers hardly at all. Where all the money went, we'll never know but where it didn't go...we know all too well.
By frontloading the village as the centerpeice for concern, we define a far more effective direction for future reform efforts. In fact, its a much better definition of what needs to be done then a multi-million dollar 'better bookeeping' notion for poor fishing villages and "LOWBALL-DROP-SHIP FISH thru the MAIL R US...movement that has FUTHER watered down accountabiliy in the chain of custody.
Putting the right netting material and a few thousand dollars in the right direction may have already eclipsed the millions put in the wrong direction by other groups.
AMDA..is actually an aquarium group for a change and obviously not one controlled by MAC [ which is NOT an aquarium group!]. That alone is something very, very different then when you were with it.
Steve
 

dizzy

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MaryHM":derrjr36 said:
I served on the board of AMDA for almost 2 years, during which time I heavily promoted net caught fish, was extremely picky to insure that people faxing over a business license had a retail storefront, and did not ship to hobbyists. Support from the AMDA membership was basically non-existent, which was quite interesting seeing how me and Segrest were the only importer/wholesaler members.

Mary, several of the the stores that were AMDA members during your time on the board are no longer in business. This is due in no small part to some of the practices you now seem to be endorsing. Times are changing and so is AMDA. We are looking for members who want to join together to protect our livelyhoods in an ethical manner. There may be more such dealers than you imagine.
Mitch
 

MaryHM

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Mary, several of the the stores that were AMDA members during your time on the board are no longer in business. This is due in no small part to some of the practices you now seem to be endorsing.

Which stores? I know that at least one of those stores went out of business because of a complete lack of understanding of EVERYTHING- livestock, systems, etc... From doing a quick count and assuming that the membership information is up to date, about 30 stores have either gone out of business or cancelled their AMDA membership. There were over 80 members when I was on the board- now there are about 50. That's a huge lossAnd please don't assume what I endorse or don't endorse unless I clearly state it.

Nothing you said addresses the fact that the membership didn't support me as an AMDA wholesaler who tried very, very hard to adhere to everything the original post states. My problem with this is that it's just more TALK. Following through with something like this in this day and age is going to be practically impossible if not totally impossible. But it will be interesting to follow the progress- maybe the AMDA site will finally get updated with the developments.

So, when are you kicking out ORA?
 

clarionreef

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Mary,
The membership hardly buys from me either....Then again, I don't expect them to. Its not a buying club.
I wish they would...but thats not a condition for my participation in a reform organization.
Doing the right thing for the 'GENERAL GOOD" is the idea here. If there is reward for that...great! If not, well you gotta withdraw from the unsustainable practices in our trade for your own reasons.
I would never, ever let the vote of the public or the membership determine my own code of ethics. If they lack it, its their problem and have themselves to blame.

The hope of the organization is to define a better way, show a better way and try to convince others to join the better way.
Netting materials are now an accepted part of the lexicon of industry reform for example and a pipeline has finally opened for it!
Collecting practices and environmental concerns are the foundation of the group...but the intrusion of the "fish in the mail" movement has been a constant concern of many dealers. Thats why it was decided to go ahead w/ the letter.
Steve
 

dizzy

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MaryHM":3a2k83u9 said:
Which stores? I know that at least one of those stores went out of business because of a complete lack of understanding of EVERYTHING- livestock, systems, etc... From doing a quick count and assuming that the membership information is up to date, about 30 stores have either gone out of business or cancelled their AMDA membership. There were over 80 members when I was on the board- now there are about 50. That's a huge lossAnd please don't assume what I endorse or don't endorse unless I clearly state it. So, when are you kicking out ORA?

Mary,
I don't recall the names and I didn't know the owners personally. I know of at least three that were mentioned here on reefs.org by former customers. One was in New Mexico or Texas. One in Washington state and one in the Northeast. When I saw them mentioned, I went to www.amdareef.com and saw them listed. I notifed the AMDA BOD that another member had gone under each time I noticed it. My heading was something like "Another one bites the dust." Steve or one of the others should be able to confirm this if you don't believe me. The former customers were the ones citing etail competetion as the reasons. You may be right they may have been total idiots that had no business being in business.

Are you saying that ORA is etailing direct to the public now?
 

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