Improving the survival rates of transported fish.
- Thread starter Terry B
- Start date
I would have to agree from what I have seen that starvation is less of a factor than cyanide and stress. However, it depends on how long the fish are starved. It is common practice to starve small fish for day and larger fish 2 days before packaging them for shipment to help prevent ammonia build up in shipping water. I don't think there is enough evidence to support PTSD or Post Tramatic Shipping Disorder being caused by short term starvation. We all know what cyanide is supposed to do. DMS is a huge factor and it is basically osmotic dysfunction and immune system suppression brought on by acute stress. I believe DMS is a large contributor to losses in the first few weeks post shipment.
Terry B
Terry B
The pH and level of toxic ammonia can rise rapidly when the transport bag is opened. Can I get a consensus on how you handle this? What about problems associated with floating a closed bag in water to adjust the water temperature within the bag?
Terry B
Terry B
Anyone who knows what they are doing, does not float the bags and allow the tank water to mix with the bag water. Instead, fresh low pH water is prepared..[temp salinity etc]...and the fish is transferred to the 100 percent new zero ammonia water. Then over time , the pH and temp are increased. Even coral , inverts and anemones should be done this way. But how many store fronts have an entire system to acclimate fish and corals? One percent? Feeding the fish prior to shipping would only exacerbate the whole ammonia /pH thing anyway.....and breath bags even more so. More water inthe bags and shorter flights are the best bet.
Kalkbreath":302gkuq2 said:
this means you have 8 systems total, one acclimation system per sale/holding system, yes? that's quite impressive
the only store i've worked in that had an acclimation setup had one acclimation raceway/drip/trough , which was used for both the sw, and fw, sections, switched back and forth, when needed per shipments arrivals.this gave us a total of 5 systems-inverts/coral, sw fish, fw, plants, and the intermittently used raceway-it was one of the major stores near the mass./n.h. border
our standard procedure was also to flush the fish out for 12-24 hrs in a lowered ph batch of water taken from their system, plastic shoeboxes, with drip lines, in a slanted trough and recirculating
we did not acclimate corals/inverts- mostly due to time/labor restraints, partly due to fewer issues w/acclimation on the whole
i think that if just larger bags and a larger amount of water were used for damsel/clowns/gobies, etc. that hundreds of thousands of dollars would be saved, by at least one link in the (supply) chain, even considering the increased freight (to say nothing of the environmental savings)
many damsels arrive alive in 2 tablespoons of water- imagine how many more would survive, even past the '2-3 day daa' timeline, if they came packed in a full cup or two?
i'd rather pay for one box of 30 live damsels, than a 1/2 dead box of 60 :wink:
i'll bet a smart, cost concsious importer would, too
Buffers are often used to help maintain the pH of transport water. Organic buffers such as Trizma™ or tris buffer work best for maintaining the pH of water when fish density is high such as during shipping (Spotte, 1979). Tris buffers are incompatible with some products used to control ammonia build-up. Tris is an amine and some ammonia detoxifiers react with ammonia and amines. Therefore, tris buffers should not be used in conjunction with these products. Does anyone know of an ammonia detoxifier that is compatible with tris buffer?
Terry B
Terry B
Terry B,
At community level fish are kept in plastic bags without food for periods of time that could go up to a week. It depends on the number of fish available to be picked up by the middleman/woman. The number has to be good enough to justify transport expenses. Water is not changed, in the plastic bags, if the fish are not high value fish, and changed once a day if is an expensive fish.
At community level fish are kept in plastic bags without food for periods of time that could go up to a week. It depends on the number of fish available to be picked up by the middleman/woman. The number has to be good enough to justify transport expenses. Water is not changed, in the plastic bags, if the fish are not high value fish, and changed once a day if is an expensive fish.
Terry B":2daku8jd said:
Terry,
Re-used plastic bags which are expensive for fish collectors are being used by most of fish collectors in developing countries. Most of the physiological damage inflected to marine ornamentals happens to community level where fish are kept until buyers show up. While in the Philippines, I saw one plastic bag with more than 12 lionfish, and cases of plastic bags with more than 12 fragile butterflyfish or close to 50 domino damsels. I have hundreds of slides showing how fish are being kept by collectors at community level. The principal cause of mortality of MO to each level of the trade is found at community level.
The industry knows this, but nothing has been done to tackle the problem..
Jaime Baquero":3k1upv49 said:
Jaime,
This is not exactly true...
This was largely true, and likely is still largely true in many areas.
However, in areas I have seen that Ferdinand has worked in, he has introduced the collectors to different holding techniques. They are using plastic jars with many holes put into the tops and the top half of the sides, then hold the fish in these jars in large mesh bags in the ocean until just before packing day. This cuts mortality to near zero, allows some particulate food in, and stops the ammonia burn. Overall the fish quality is much higher.
If you read the article I wrote last year on Palauig, you can see images of the jars in the bags. The hoop bags are also typical for holding the jars. Where they have the money, they often build a floating bamboo cage to hold the bags. Otherwise, they will typically just tie one end of a rope to a cement block at the bottom, and the other end to a milk jug as a float, then suspend the mesh bag in the water column in the lagoonal area nearby their homes. So they can keep an eye on them, ya know...
I cannot say how widespread this practice is, but it is one of the first things that EASI teaches the fishermen in the communities they work with. If I am not mistaken, MAC does the same thing.
My local club, CMAS, has actually put together a Jar Fund to help Ferdinand and EASI with the costs of providing these jars. Last quotes he had gotten, we were looking at 1000 lots of roughly 16oz. plastic jars running around USD300. We have not really publicized it that much yet as I am waiting for him to finalize things. Once we do, I expect that we may be able to get them several thousand plastic jars of various sizes. Given that they should last for years, it is a simple investment in low-tech infrastructure that can only benefit everyone all along the supply line, as well as the hobbyists as the end consumer of better quality fish.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
mike- i seem to recall a post wher the fish's journey from collection to airport was told, here in the ind. forum-mebbe it was you who posted the account...
from what i gathered, it's possible that the typical period of time a fish goes w/out eating, and kept in miserable conditions, can be longer than a week
(there were aerial shots of the communities along the polluted rivers, iirc, in that post-but i can't remember which thread it was in, hehe)
this also doesn't take into account the extra time the fish spend after they land stateside, w/possibly no feeding, and overcrowded conditions
i'm still amazed that the amount of fish that survive all of this, do survive
if we had to go through the proportionate conditions, i doubt we'd make it at all
i used to tell the occasional interested customer that what the fish go through to get here is equal to,or worse, proportionately, than what many folks endured in the cattle cars to the death camps in nazi germany
from what i gathered, it's possible that the typical period of time a fish goes w/out eating, and kept in miserable conditions, can be longer than a week
(there were aerial shots of the communities along the polluted rivers, iirc, in that post-but i can't remember which thread it was in, hehe)
this also doesn't take into account the extra time the fish spend after they land stateside, w/possibly no feeding, and overcrowded conditions
i'm still amazed that the amount of fish that survive all of this, do survive
if we had to go through the proportionate conditions, i doubt we'd make it at all
i used to tell the occasional interested customer that what the fish go through to get here is equal to,or worse, proportionately, than what many folks endured in the cattle cars to the death camps in nazi germany
mkirda":34obp9zr said:
Mike,
Yes, is not true 100%. I know Ferdinand and others are working the jars idea in some places in the Philippines. This is not to say that 100% of collectors in the Philippines are using jars. Most of the collectors, specially in remote areas, are using "re-used bags over and over" by doing it, they are also spreading diseases.
Most of the collectors in the Philippines are not working with Ferdinand/EASI or MAC, they are at their own. There are over 7,000 islands in the Philippines. I know there is a bit of improvement in the Philippines regarding collection, handling and holding. It is not happening as fast as it should be but there is improvemnnet. It is a fact that handling and holding (use of re-used plastic bags is a serious problems in most of the poor fishers communities in PI)
But what about Indonesia, exporters are moving out more fish than exporters from the Philippines. There is evidence that things are worse over there regarding collection, handling and holding.
Indonesia and Philippines are trading 75% of MO.
Middlemen/woman use also the re-used bags to transport their fish . They do not use to transport one fish per bag, specially if the fish are cheap. It takes a while before those poor fish get to the holding facilities of an exporter in Manila.
Pens have been used as holding technique at community level. They are not widespread because of theft. The same applies for the jars. In many places theft is a serious problem and collectors do not trust each other.
Ocean holding has its limits. For one, it has to be a calm, protected area. Two, many fish can't be held in jars (jars are only for a few select fishes) ie. butterflies rub their snouts badly in jars, large fish don't fit, etc.. Three, theft is a HUGE issue as Jaime has pointed out. Holding/shipping issues can't be solved by adressing them all in the same manor. The collection area's problems are as diverse as their marine life. If they're are only a few species being collected in one area, it'll be easier to address, then an area with tons of diversity (simple logic).
I have 12 systems.....and adding more each month. The store is only 3200 square feet, we use three tiers in most set ups. so I get the most out of each system. and I have redone almost every system .....to get it right. ....................Question, did you have a bio tower on the system that you switched from salt to fresh water? I always thought that marine bacteria was not adaptable to fresh conditions? Thanks....vitz":1bud8k47 said:
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
