Improving the survival rates of transported fish.

[Jaime Baquero]

But what about Indonesia, exporters are moving out more fish than exporters from the Philippines. There is evidence that things are worse over there regarding collection, handling and holding.

I don't think thats true Jaime, I highly doubt Indo is shipping more fish the PI. I do believe your right about things being worse in Indo as far as holding, handling and collection though.

GreshamH, I have some numbers obtained from Statistics Canada and Census Bureau ( U.S. Department of commerce).

During the year 2000 the U.S imported $ 7,547,000CDN value of ornamental fish from Indonesia( I don't know if you guys import fresh water fish from indonesia). During the same year the U.S. imported $4,371,000CDN form the Philippines.

During 2001 U.S Imported $ 8,476,000CDN from Ind. and $5,100,000CDN from the Ph.

I'll check to see if I get numbers for 2002, 2003

 

[naesco]

Jaime

Thank God for Statistics Canada, eh!

The numbers are shocking.
It is easy to understand why industry is attempting to stonewall the whole reeform agenda.

One also must ask why are we importing so many fish year after year after year.

Dr. Rubec has already provided us with enough factual information that the majority of fish die as a result of cyanide poisioning.

It is good to see that Dr. Terry is looking into potential methods of stopping the in-transit carnage. Hopefully enough data will come forward so that after analysis of that data, some recommendation can be made and regulations enacted to provide a safer journey to our hobbyists.

As well as a mandatory CDT and training, monies must be provided by industry to fund the research into better handling methods both by industy here and abroad.
Thank you

 

[Anonymous]

Not sure what the percentages are, but a good bit of freshwater fish are imported from that region as well.

 

[MaryHM]

Just a double check...

Those statistics from Indonesia supposedly only contain fish, right? No coral?

 

[Anonymous]

this means you have 8 systems total, one acclimation system per sale/holding system, yes? that's quite impressive

the only store i've worked in that had an acclimation setup had one acclimation raceway/drip/trough , which was used for both the sw, and fw, sections, switched back and forth, when needed per shipments arrivals.this gave us a total of 5 systems-inverts/coral, sw fish, fw, plants, and the intermittently used raceway-it was one of the major stores near the mass./n.h. border

I have 12 systems.....and adding more each month. The store is only 3200 square feet, we use three tiers in most set ups. so I get the most out of each system. and I have redone almost every system .....to get it right. ....................Question, did you have a bio tower on the system that you switched from salt to fresh water? I always thought that marine bacteria was not adaptable to fresh conditions? Thanks....

if you read my post, kalk, you'll see there's no mention of any filtration for the acclimation system

the acclimation system is 'linked to' the system needed to acclimate to, and then emptied when done with it's use

there is no switch of any filtration system from fresh to salt


hmm...

i just got done workin in a 6k sq ft store, w/a 3 tier level rack system (about 1/2 the store was the fish room, so about 3k sq. ft.)

we had about 600 + tanks, and maybe 7-8 large systems, with no room for an acclimation op.

i'm curious as to how you manage to fit an acclimation set-up in your store, and what size your systems are, if ya don't mind- i would like to see your setup, if possible

any pics of yer fishroom?

 

[Kalkbreath]

I will have a new website soon, it will contain some photos .... I like the idea of bio filtration on all the acclimation systems. that way as the fish release the ammonia build up in their tissue [from the two days in a bag with thier own feces}, it can be processed by the bio tower.Other wise some ammonia can show up in the acclimation water. I keep the acclimation systems running 24 /7 . I feed each system by urinating in them when not in use to keep a food source. Thats why my yellow tangs are so brightly colored! :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
I do believe that the same bacteria perform nitrification in either salt or freshwater. You may have to be careful not to acclimate the bacteria to quickly to the change though.
Terry B

Thanks for the input, I was not sure ......I thought they might be able to adapt over time to the new conditions . Thanks

 

[Jaime Baquero]

But what about Indonesia, exporters are moving out more fish than exporters from the Philippines. There is evidence that things are worse over there regarding collection, handling and holding.

I don't think thats true Jaime, I highly doubt Indo is shipping more fish the PI. I do believe your right about things being worse in Indo as far as holding, handling and collection though.

GreshamH, I have some numbers obtained from Statistics Canada and Census Bureau ( U.S. Department of commerce).

During the year 2000 the U.S imported $ 7,547,000CDN value of ornamental fish from Indonesia( I don't know if you guys import fresh water fish from indonesia). During the same year the U.S. imported $4,371,000CDN form the Philippines.

During 2001 U.S Imported $ 8,476,000CDN from Ind. and $5,100,000CDN from the Ph.

I'll check to see if I get numbers for 2002, 2003

To follow up more numbers from Statistics Canada and the Census Bureau (U.S. Department of Commerce)

Imports of Ornamental fish, LIVE. There is not distintion between fresh/salt/corals or other invertebrates.

Year 2000 Total in millions of CDN

Indonesia $ 7,5
Philippines 4,3
Singapore 11,8 ( we know many exporters use Singapore to move fish out of the Philippines and Indonesia a good percentage is freshwater)
Thailand 13,7 ( I guess most of it is fresh water)

Year 2001

Indonesia $8,4
Phillippines 5,1
Singapore 13,0
Thailand 15,3

Year 2002

Indonesia $ 8,3
Philippines 5,6
Singapore 12,8
Thailand 13,3

Year 2003

Indonesia $ 7,1
Philippines 4,8
Singapore 10,5
Thailand 11,0

We shouldn't forget that the value of fish declared to customs is lower, in cases much lower, than the real value of the fish. Meaning that those number could go up considerably.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Those numbers are ONLY for the U.S.

 

[mkirda]

Ocean holding has its limits. For one, it has to be a calm, protected area. Two, many fish can't be held in jars (jars are only for a few select fishes) ie. butterflies rub their snouts badly in jars, large fish don't fit, etc.. Three, theft is a HUGE issue as Jaime has pointed out. Holding/shipping issues can't be solved by adressing them all in the same manor. The collection area's problems are as diverse as their marine life. If they're are only a few species being collected in one area, it'll be easier to address, then an area with tons of diversity (simple logic).

Hey, Gresham.

You are absolutely right, and I realized upon re-reading my post that it made it seem like jars were the "magic bullet". They are but one component of holding and shipping, albeit a great one for a subset of species, but not perfect for all species.

Theft is a problem everywhere. Not sure if I had related a story about diving in Batangas... The resort owners there every year buy mooring bouys, so dive boats will not have to use anchors on the reef. They typically last a few months before they get ripped off. You have seen the anchors used there, right? Bent metal rods tied to a large rock? You can see where they have hit the reef, as they will be a 2 foot circle where the staghorn coral is broken down to the reef hard bottom. It doesn't bother me that much as it makes frags, and they mostly reattach and start growing back quickly. (Better that than a blast crater!)

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

monies must be provided by industry to fund the research into better handling methods both by industy here and abroad.
Thank you

Why not pony up some yourself, Naesco?

Instead of relying on other people to do what you keep proclaiming needs to be done, why not just do it?

It's funny to me that people do not realize that they could fund basic experiments for as little as a couple of hundred bucks.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Imports of Ornamental fish, LIVE. There is not distintion between fresh/salt/corals or other invertebrates.

So your data includes both fresh and salt water, as well as inverts, corals etc.? So what relevance is this data to us then? We are only talking about salt water fish, and you spit some data that includes ALL aquatic livestock, and then Neasco says thank god for data? Good going Neasco, once again you didn't llok before you dove. Data doesn't mean squat, unless its relevent to the conversation, which this data isn't. The funny thing is, that data isn't all that accurate either, if you know how the industry is run (can you say 'performa invoice'?).[/quote]

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Imports of Ornamental fish, LIVE. There is not distintion between fresh/salt/corals or other invertebrates.

So your data includes both fresh and salt water, as well as inverts, corals etc.? So what relevance is this data to us then? We are only talking about salt water fish, and you spit some data that includes ALL aquatic livestock, and then Neasco says thank god for data? Good going Neasco, once again you didn't llok before you dove. Data doesn't mean squat, unless its relevent to the conversation, which this data isn't. The funny thing is, that data isn't all that accurate either, if you know how the industry is run (can you say 'performa invoice'?).

[/quote]

If you want to ignore the data please go ahead. The data from Indonesia and the Philippines gives a good idea of the volume of marine ornamental, including invertebrates, being imported to the U.S. A considerable amount of fish is exported via Singapore. Those fish are originally from Indo and the Ph.

Yes, I know that data is not accurate, the numbers are far from reality. You are in the importing business and you know "very well" how most of the importers "do things".

Invertebrates are also part of the reef. Their presence in the reef is relevant, as they should be relevant in this forum.

 

[naesco]

Imports of Ornamental fish, LIVE. There is not distintion between fresh/salt/corals or other invertebrates.

So your data includes both fresh and salt water, as well as inverts, corals etc.? So what relevance is this data to us then? We are only talking about salt water fish, and you spit some data that includes ALL aquatic livestock, and then Neasco says thank god for data? Good going Neasco, once again you didn't llok before you dove. Data doesn't mean squat, unless its relevent to the conversation, which this data isn't. The funny thing is, that data isn't all that accurate either, if you know how the industry is run (can you say 'performa invoice'?).

[/quote]

I will tell you what is relavent.
A small fraction of the fresh water fish to their hobby come from lakes and rivers. Almost all are farmed.
Their industry is clean.
The saltwater industry poisons the fish and in the process destroys the reef and the critters that live therein. A tiny tiny amount is net caught or aquacultured and they are not supported by an industry that continues to import fish from Indonesia and the Philippines where the use of cyanide is rampant.

It surprises me when industry tries to poke holes in intelligent discussions, dispute data bait those who are sincerely trying to do something instead of demanding that the use of cyanide stop NOW.

 

[MaryHM]

Here's the issue with the statistic that Jaime provided. This is his direct quote:

But what about Indonesia, exporters are moving out more fish than exporters from the Philippines.

Seeing how Indonesia is the largest exporter of CORALS and this statistic includes CORALS, then actually the amount of fish being exported from there is extremely tiny when compared to exports out of the Philippines. For those who don't know, there are NO coral exports out of the Philippines. So that statistic from there is solely made up of fish and a few inverts like shrimp, crabs, anemones, etc...

If someone is going to say something and back it up with statistics, DON'T SPIN IT. It just makes them look silly or like they have some kind of an agenda to push. And it makes it very hard to take anything they say seriously because you realize they aren't diligent enough to check their facts before posting them. And no Jaime, it's not just you that I'm referring to so don't freak out.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I agree ......the average cost of a coral from Jakarta is comparable to about twenty damsels from PI or five bicolor angels from PI. The dollar value is worthless to compare the number of animals. Secondly, even a head on head fish comparison Indonesia verses the Philippines would be difficult. As to the fact that most fish from Bali or Jakarta are twice the price that of PI ........so The Philippines would need to have twice as many fish exported to match Bali in dollars.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Please show numbers to back your statement. Tiny amounts? Do importers in the U.S prefer to import fish from Indo or the Phil? Is shipping cost higher from the Philippines or Indonesia? What is the percentage of corals and fish?

Some, exporters overseas and importers in the U.S are not only ripping off the coral reefs in the Ph. and Indo but also ripping off the tax system with their false statements about the real value of shipments (Fish/invert.). This is a serious offense someone should go after them. Any tax people around here?

 

[MaryHM]

Wow Jaime. The fact that you can't even apologize for misspeaking definitely makes me lose respect for you. Apparently you are pushing an agenda rather than trying to get to the truth of things. Geez, you don't even KNOW if importers prefer to import fish from the Philippines or Indonesia, yet make a statement that Indonesia is shipping more fish than the Philippines?? C'mon, you can do better than that. Want numbers to back my statements? I don't have exact statistics, but even if I did you've shown you can twist them to push any agenda you want. I prefer to use COMMON SENSE. And here is my common sense on why Indonesia ships "tiny amounts" of fish when compared to the Philippines.

Your numbers:
Indonesia imports= $7,547,000CDN
Philippine imports= $4,371,000CDN

The average cost of a coral from Indonesia is approximately $4. That is strictly the coral cost- no freight or additional charges added in. The average cost of a fish from the Philippines is about $2 (and that may be a little on the high side). Now you have to figure in that Indonesia is the LARGEST exporter of corals. This is where probably 85% or more of the corals for this trade come from. You also have to know that the Philippines has NO coral exports, strictly fish and a few miscellaneous invertebrates. Knowing these FACTS and knowing the cost of the fish vs. corals, you can easily see that the Philippines exports an enormous amount of fish in comparison to Indonesia.

Honestly, any one who knows anything about the industry knows this. It's not like it's some big mystery. I am so sick of people taking statistics and twisting them around to fit their agenda. "Get your stats straight or shut up" should be the rule of this forum. There are enough things that are truthful that need to be discussed and solved without you coming up with something completely false and ridiculous. Please salvage your integrity here and state that you were incorrect. I think everyone would have more respect for you.

Waiting for Jaime to see the error of his ways on this topic. Not holding my breath. Expecting one of the following: An excuse, completely ignoring the facts, continued twisting of the facts even though the truth is obvious, or more likely all of the above.

 

[MaryHM]

I'm looking for the amount of coral vs. fish imports. Anyone have that stat?

 

[MaryHM]

Ok. Here's what I found. In 2001, the export quotas allocated by Indonesia for CITES listed corals only totaled 891,000 pieces.

7,547,000CDN= US$5,719,000
4,371,000CDN=US$3,312,000

Complicating the issue is the fact that over 60% of the trade from Indonesia consists of Euphyllia, Goniopora, Trachyphyllia, Catalaphyllia,
Heliofungia and Plerogyra. Euphyllia and Cataphyllia are high priced corals. Certain types of Euphyllia exceed $12-$15 per piece, most Catalaphyllia exceeds $10-$12 per piece, certain types of Plerogyra exceed $6 per piece, and certain types of Goniopora exceed $8 per piece (although the vast majority of the Goniopora imported is the cheaper $2-$3 type). This would skew the average price of the corals a little higher than the $4 I originally stated. But let's just keep it at $4 for the ease of the math.

891,000 pieces x $4= $3,564,000
Total imports of $5,719,000-$3,564,000= $2,155,000 fish, inverts, and non-CITES corals

Philippines- $3,312,000/$2 avg. per fish= 1,656,000 fish exported from PI

Indonesia- $2,155,000/$2 avg. per fish (although the fish do tend to be more expensive from Indonesia)= 1,077,500 fish exported from Indonesia


Now we need the data for freshwater vs. saltwater imports. Anyone?