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dizzy":1kqtjrft said:
GratefulDiver":1kqtjrft said:
I really want to know what the hell the deal is so many of you who seem to have issues with people finding / learning things on the internet...
Really, I do! - Please enlighten me as to why this medium, this tool, is so much worse than reading a book or killing things in the name of "experience"..?

Norm I think you have it all wrong. I don't think anyone minds people learning things on the internet. One of the problems I see with the internet is that people often learn things wrong. I like the parrot analogy Jenn penned for us in another thread. People repeating stuff other people wrote, without really having the experience to back it up. A lot of misinformation gets spread in this manner. At least the author of a book stakes his/her reputation on the factual content of that book. (Non-fiction writters excluded) On the net you can say anything you like and move on.
If often becomes necessary to dig through piles of crap in order to find peanuts of truth.

heh

pure kaka :P

so having something on paper in print improves its veracity just by virtue of being hard copy ? lol

i dunno about you, dizzy, but i've seen plenty of misinformation in books, and not just those dealing w/this hobby/biz, as well as seeing misinformation quoted from another idjits book

i'm sure you've seen the same :wink:

i don't think the relative amount of misinformation to correct information on the net is any different than the proportion in print

there are even some 'knowledgeable' folks with degrees posting misinformation on internet fish bb's, as 'experts'

i think alot more misinformation has been spread by lfs's to people who actually buy an aquarium than the internet has, since it's been around for the masses :wink: (because most folks don't research on the net for even the good info before they buy, and most lfs's don't have a clue)
 
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p.s.

i don't think either carries any more 'reputational weight/risk' for those writing than the other does
 

dizzy

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vitz":3mfiwd9a said:
p.s.

i don't think either carries any more 'reputational weight/risk' for those writing than the other does

If you want to get another non-fiction book deal it prolly does.
 
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lol

you honestly think that just because a book is labeled 'non-fiction' the book is truth ?

i'll bet those publishing companies are always furiously checking all of those 'non fiction' works written by politicos for accuracy before publishing

the nyt is still a very successful newspaper

read any presidential memoirs lately?

you assume that non-fiction authors are all necessarily concerned w/their reputation :wink:

it boils down to the writer, not the publisher, or how it's published :)

publishing companies care about publishing, not about truth

if a book will sell well, even due to controversy surrounding its accuracy, pubishing co.'s will gobble it up willingly, i'm sure :wink:

edit: i don't think i've seen one fish mag that didn't have quite a few innacuracies in print on an occasional basis, by 'experts'-same goes for the internet
 

dizzy

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I'm just saying that most of the people who post regularly on these bbs should prolly not quit their day jobs in hopes of getting a book deal.
 
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Back to the subject, Chip, why don't you get in touch with greenighs? We also have a new crewmember on WWM, Leslie Leddo, who's tres bon into seahorses. We recently had a fellow write in to Bob asking about sources for wild-caught Brazilians, actually had a whole section on his site dedicated to his philosophy regarding wild-caught seahorses.

The biggest issue with shipping seahorses, and this ought to apply to any seahorse, is their digestive system. This is actually true for Equus, as well.
 

naesco

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As pointed out wild seahorse are in jeopardy. Even seahorse.org recommends against keeping wild species.

IMO those in the industry with dated thinking feel that anything is justified however these same people will be responsible for the industry's demise or subject it to severe government regulation.

You may not appreciate these constant comments but please understand that as a hobbyist I have no hobby if there is no industry.

What do you think the recent clarion scandal will have on industry?
 
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naesco":2vp27qhy said:
As pointed out wild seahorse are in jeopardy. Even seahorse.org recommends against keeping wild species.

IMO those in the industry with dated thinking feel that anything is justified however these same people will be responsible for the industry's demise or subject it to severe government regulation.

You may not appreciate these constant comments but please understand that as a hobbyist I have no hobby if there is no industry.

What do you think the recent clarion scandal will have on industry?

should captive raised seahorses also be banned ?

there are already enough captive bred fish and corals to give you plenty hobby

just not the ones you might want

do you see the hipocracy ?

what do you think about people who may have been breeding/selling seahorses as a means of income no longer being able to do so ?

do you see now why regulations can't just be thrown around willy nilly as you propose but need very careful formulation and application ?

the seahorse ban will do not much to keep the wild populations safe at all, and now the easiest means of reducing the hobby's pressure on wild seahorses is banned, for most practical purposes, and 'aquarists' will try and succeed in obtaining them

in fact, because now they have to be smuggled around like contraband, a higher percentage of horses will likely perish for each that makes it into an aquarium, and now keepers of previously purchased captive bred may have to go so far as to make sure they have their receipts, if some ignoramus just blabs to the right person that so and so has seahorses in their living room

food for thought :wink:
 

naesco

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But surely to God you see a trend here.
Every day in every way it gets more and more difficult of industry.
Unless industry takes some initiatives to stop the mindless destruction of the reefs caused by cyanide, the importation of fish that have no hope of survival in even expert aquarists tanks and the illegal trade in prohibited species ( the clarion scandal) it is doomed to certain government control.

In face of the obvious you push the dated right wing agenda to the detriment of your own industry and our hobby.

Face reality, Vitz and unless the government is invited by industry to step in with regulations that level the playing field for all, they will come in and shut it down.
 
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naesco":1tojuq8h said:
But surely to God you see a trend here.
Every day in every way it gets more and more difficult of industry.
Unless industry takes some initiatives to stop the mindless destruction of the reefs caused by cyanide, the importation of fish that have no hope of survival in even expert aquarists tanks and the illegal trade in prohibited species ( the clarion scandal) it is doomed to certain government control.

In face of the obvious you push the dated right wing agenda to the detriment of your own industry and our hobby.

Face reality, Vitz and unless the government is invited by industry to step in with regulations that level the playing field for all, they will come in and shut it down.

you obviously have no idea of the differences between the seahorse and the mo fish/coral issues

captive bred seahorses do not harm the reefs the hobby or the industry

nor do they need any regulation from cites

here's a thought

let's have canada now add a whole buncha fees and regulations/restrictions on all canadiam realtors because a few landlords in quebec messed up their tenants

pay up

if the cost of doing business as an honest realtor are so prohibitive as to cause you to lose your business, well, the blanket regulation is for the industry as a whole-you're just an egg that needs to get broken for the omellette

i bet your tune would change so fast a herrng couldn't keep up
 
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seamaiden":3hj1jstm said:
Back to the subject, Chip, why don't you get in touch with greenighs?

If you think she's my type, and she's single, then sure!

;)

Seriously, thanks for the info. :D

Peace,

Chip
 

naesco

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I am talking wild not captive bred seahorses.

Captive bred is the salvation of the industry but industry doesn't give a damn.
 
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Wayne, breeding of the most popular species of seahorses is becoming more and more common. I think what vitz is saying is that they will be blanketed by the same regulations, even though they have zero impact on the native environment. So, what you tout as being the salvation of the industry, could easily be run over like a train wreck. Where's the impetus to continue?

I have to say that I think it's very misleading to continually declare that the MO industry is responsible for reef degradation. Implicit in those statements is that there are no other causes responsible, or that if there are, they're negligible. That is not only naive, but potentially quite dangerous, as it gives those who don't understand all factors at play the impression that if THIS ONE THING changes, the reefs will be "saved". Surely, you have to know that nothing could be further from the truth, yes?
 
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naesco":of9wdtsm said:
I am talking wild not captive bred seahorses.

Captive bred is the salvation of the industry but industry doesn't give a damn.

as far as the distinction between wild caught and captive raised goes, it's cites that doesn't give a damn, actually

cites is now making it nearly impossible for captive bred horses to be the salvation of anything, naesco, and the cause has mostly, if not completely, to do w/the asian folk elixir market, not the mo industry's seahorse collection

please get your information correct and straight

the cites regulation will do absolutely nothing to stop the decimation either, since cites only works in the countries that subscribe to the convention

all you can do is scream and shout and not stop it


then, when those species are gone into chinese bellies, the captive breeders will not be able to help even restore those species, under cites logic, since they aren't technicall allowed to raise enough ahead of time to do so

you need to think less in terms of black and white

thank you for supporting the future demise of seahorses, naesco :roll:
 

FishGrrl

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I'll admit, I've never tried acquiring a species that has been listed on CITES before, so I don't entirely understand the impact. Perhaps someone more familiar can straighten me out so here is my question. Why does everyone thing the CITES listing will stop trade of seahorses for the aquarium market? They were not banned, just restricted. But, not only that, the restrictions were simplified by making a minimum size limit on seahorses. So you will only be able to buy a certain size seahorses. This of course will limit the supply, but I would assume also make it easier for exporting countries to continue to export since they won't have to set up expensive population monitoring to decide what to allow for export.

CB seahorses should be even less impacted. The breeder should only need to prove his or her seahorses are captive bred to export. Sure, this may be a harrowing process, especially for a home breeder, but exporting, period, would be. And if a commercial breeder is thinking about not breeding seahorses because of being certified for export being too difficult, then I would have to assume they don't have much business sense as the demand is so high and the supply so low for much sought after captive bred seahorses. Australian bred seahorses had to deal with tons of paperwork before this, and that didn't stop South Australian Seahorses or Ocean Oddities from needing bigger facilities to keep up with the demand.

Additionally, locally caught seahorses should still be available. This includes H. reidi, H. erectus, and H. zosterae. Now, the local fish and game might put the kibosh on seahorse collecting, but so far I have seen no evidence of that. As it is, getting wild caught seahorses from local waters is a better idea anyway, because they are less stressed from less time in transit. Additionally, the three species above are often considered the best species for wild caught because of their easy of care. H. reidi are difficult to feed frozen, but otherwise do well in the home aquarium. H. erectus are tough old birds that easily switch to frozen. They're also the species that ocean rider has developed into most of their brightly colored strains. And H. zosterae can be kept easily in small aquariums as long as you're willing to hatch brine shrimp daily.

Now, I don't think that CITES is the perfect solution for protecting seahorse. I agree that it is silly that seahorses got so much attention while other species that are possibly more threatened aren't because they're not cute and horse-like. But I'm also not hearing any better solutions proposed for protecting them. Yes, some asian countries have opted out, unfortunately. But should CITES have just pulled the seahorse listing from appendix II because 4 countries did (only three being of any real importance as Norway doesn't have much overall trade in seahorses)? Or do you protect them from the countries that are following it still, some of them major sources of seahorses like the Philippines, and major consumers like China.

If I'm wrong in any of my assumptions, please let me know. But so far I have seen SO much misinformation about seahorses being added to appendix II, and people getting bent out of shape about incorrect assumptions that I have almost taken a pro-CITES stance because of it. As early as last year, fish stores were saying seahorses were banned or required a license to own. Wholesalers started to say they weren't available in January. And everyone has their own theory (myself included) as to how this is going to play out, but I haven't heard much actual fact.
 

dizzy

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Good post fishgrrl. I think people have a fear of the unknown. I guess some of us are also afraid that increasing paperwork and such will slow down the normal speed of getting things through customs, which could increase fish mortality overall. Call it a lack of faith in our government to be able to do things efficiently. I think the minimum size restriction does place a burden on people trying to raise them, as it will take longer before they are able to sell them. The size restriction was probably needless as I haven't seen anyone trying to export tiny wild seahorses anyway. The word that came through PIJAC was that no one really felt like seahorses were threatened by the pet trade, and that this would help anything, but someone wanted it as a tokin measure, and no one really stood up to protest, so it got passed. At least initially the restrictions will cause supply and demand issues as seahorses have disappeared from wholesale price lists and the breeders are mostly selling to hobbyists. Personally it is a non-issue because I have lost far more money with seahorses than I ever thought about making. It does seem like we waited until we figured out how to keep them, and then decided to restrict them. So it goes.
 

FishGrrl

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I've seen small wc seahorses for sale quite a few times. Usually their marketed as pygmies or ponies even though they're just juvenile seahorses. Though you're right, they're not common and they don't command the demand or price of full grown seahorses. But, I think the problem is that the rules were put in place without thinking of the hobbyists. I often hear people complain that hobbyists get too much blame for seahorse problems when the aquarium trade is such a small percentage of the total seahorses sold. Well, I think when they came up with this ruling, they hobbyists WEREN'T an issue and weren't considered. Is it fair, not really. But one thing to also consider is that aquarium keeping is a luxury where tcm is considered a necessity. You don't have to agree with it, but to keep asian countries from completely rejecting the idea of seahorse conservation, it had to be looked at this way.

The real problem was that in the tcm trade, the seahorses were getting smaller and smaller, because the larger ones weren't available anymore. Larger ones are prized more, but they started to package them in pills instead of as whole animals, so the end consumer never saw the seahorses they were using, and size no longer mattered. So, while the size listing may not do much to protect seahorses collected for the aquarium trade, it should make a big impact on those collected for tcm.

I do think your right in saying it will affect the supply and demand of seahorses. But, I don't think its going to stop them from being available to the hobbyists. There is too much demand, and when a store can fetch $130.00 for H. reidi and $60.00 for H. comes, they will want to pay the extra to have them, and pass those costs along to hobbyists. Look at ocean rider, they charge $250 for some of their seahorses, and i think it has less to do with them being captive bred and more to do with them being seahorses. And, there is an upside to this. Stores might be more willing to offer seahorses the correct conditions to protect their investment when they don't cost $4/ea anymore.

What I suspect we will see is in 6 months to a year, they will be nearly as common in stores as they are now. The difference will probably the number per store. Instead of seeing a store get a dozen in at a time (a common occurance here until a couple months ago) , they might get a couple in. Prices will go up, I'm sure, the day of the twelve dollar seahorse is gone. But right now, we have a problem in that no one knows what is going on. It will take the time for the industry to adjust. Maybe they'll go the route of finding more local collectors. Maybe exporters will be interested in the higher price they'll now fetch, so will go through the trouble of getting the proper paperwork.
 

PeterIMA

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To Fishgirl, I believe the size limits will exclude certain species from being traded because their maximum sizes are below the size limits. I agree that the aquarium trade and hobby were not considered when the CITES regulations were created.

Peter
 

JennM

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Interesting and most welcome insight, Fishgrrl!

I'm curious about where you are - I haven't seen prices such as you have mentioned, in the 2 years I've been in business. Wholesale I was paying $20 for H. reidi, more for colour, and $10 or so for H. erectus or "mystery" species, of sketchy origin (I usually pass on those, I want to know where stuff is from...).

I've only got in about 6 horses in the last 12 months, all were "to order" for customers who had prepared tanks in advance specifically for seahorses, and only 2 of those were wild caught (at the customer's request). I was buying ORA horses, which cost $25 and up wholesale. They are tiny but very durable and they do have a better survival rate and are easier for most hobbyists to manage.

Interesting about TCM being thought of as a 'necessity' -- here we would regard it as somewhere between voodoo and superstition, but I suppose to those consuming the horses for a variety of ills, it would be a necessity.

When I opened up my shop, my logo is a seahorse - my neighbour in my mall, who is from Viet Nam, looked at the logo, and said, "Fix back pain, 3 days!" He also assures me it will fix liver problems, intestinal distress and a variety of other issues. Who are we to say he's wrong? Lots of flora and fauna contain medicinal properties...

I maintain that the hobby is not the stress on wild populations that Wayne seems to believe, and the medicine trade is the biggest stress. Wayne if you want to get on a soap box, go to almost any gift shop/tourist trap along the Gulf Coast of Florida (or anywhere else for that matter) and you'll see bins of dried seahorses for about $2 each. THAT is what makes me sick. They are often a bycatch of other harvests, and they are placed out to die and dry so that you can bring home a souvenir of the beach, along with sea shells and a t-shirt.

The ocean considers it dead when it leaves, but blatent waste of life for curios is something that can and should be changed. I've seen more horses dried in a bin in a single store, than most LFS would buy and sell in a year. Multiply that by the number of bins in hundreds of stores... you get the idea. Wanna be mad? Be mad about that.

I think is a bad thing if CITES regulation (and I don't know much about CITES since I do not import or export, I simply buy from importer/wholesalers or hatcheries), but if this affects captive raised specimens too, I think that is a big mistake, and will only fuel the "black market"... people will still want them and they will just have to work harder to get them.

Jenn
 

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