I dont use to post here, I registered once but forget my login/password, so i did a new account.
First of all, Im from Mexico, (Mazatlan if any of you know the Pacific coast of Mexico), and I currently have my own seahorse farm.
some of you maybe know me, I was able to bring some H. ingens with me to IMAC last year, and to MACNA at Luisville.
I was invited by Mexican Goverment to participate in the Seahorse Workshop that was held here at mazatlan on February and can help you to clarify all the missinformation at least regarding to that workshop.
cortez marine, I want to make it clear, Im not giving up, not i will, I have jsut 2.5 years with my farm and im getting really good results, I closed the life cycle of H.ingens in the first year, and know im working with F2 and F3 generations. Also I began with H. reidi, H.kuda and H.zosterae in january and im getting very good results with them also.
What can I tell you about CITES, well, dried seahorses will be equally affected by CITES regulations as Life Seahorses.
Getting a CITES certificated for a stablished seahorse farm is not difficult, Im just having some problems with the paperwork due to the fact that i was getting it before they where regulated by CITES and now they are... It is just matter of time (& luck due to bureocracy) to get my papers ready for them.
CB seahorses wont be regulated if they are at least F2 generation.
Size limit will only apply to Wild seahorses, so It wont be possible to export import dwarf seahorses (other medium species are close the limit).
Brazil is having troubles with the companies that sells wild seahorses, so it wont be reidi in the market for a while.
as some of you pointed out... they are not prohibited, just restricted, if the company in a CITES party country wants to export wild seahorses, they need to prove that they are not decimating wild populations, this must be accomplished in conjuntion with national goverments to be able to get the CITES certificate.
Also each CITES Party was informed about the inclusion of the Genus Hippocampus to the appendix II and that they will have 18 months before applying this new regulation.
Zea
First of all, Im from Mexico, (Mazatlan if any of you know the Pacific coast of Mexico), and I currently have my own seahorse farm.
some of you maybe know me, I was able to bring some H. ingens with me to IMAC last year, and to MACNA at Luisville.
I was invited by Mexican Goverment to participate in the Seahorse Workshop that was held here at mazatlan on February and can help you to clarify all the missinformation at least regarding to that workshop.
cortez marine, I want to make it clear, Im not giving up, not i will, I have jsut 2.5 years with my farm and im getting really good results, I closed the life cycle of H.ingens in the first year, and know im working with F2 and F3 generations. Also I began with H. reidi, H.kuda and H.zosterae in january and im getting very good results with them also.
What can I tell you about CITES, well, dried seahorses will be equally affected by CITES regulations as Life Seahorses.
Getting a CITES certificated for a stablished seahorse farm is not difficult, Im just having some problems with the paperwork due to the fact that i was getting it before they where regulated by CITES and now they are... It is just matter of time (& luck due to bureocracy) to get my papers ready for them.
CB seahorses wont be regulated if they are at least F2 generation.
Size limit will only apply to Wild seahorses, so It wont be possible to export import dwarf seahorses (other medium species are close the limit).
Brazil is having troubles with the companies that sells wild seahorses, so it wont be reidi in the market for a while.
as some of you pointed out... they are not prohibited, just restricted, if the company in a CITES party country wants to export wild seahorses, they need to prove that they are not decimating wild populations, this must be accomplished in conjuntion with national goverments to be able to get the CITES certificate.
Also each CITES Party was informed about the inclusion of the Genus Hippocampus to the appendix II and that they will have 18 months before applying this new regulation.
Zea
"What can I tell you about CITES, well, dried seahorses will be equally affected by CITES regulations as Life Seahorses."
Zea, thats all nice and dandy, but that still doesn't address the fact that smugglers in the TMC countries (which are unregulated by definition) will still produce more sea horse dust then ever before. CITES will never touch the smugglers, who BTW take FAR MORE THEN OUR MO INDUSTRY EVER HAS! And thats not even mentioning the the countries that use sea horse dust that are not members of CITES and could care less that they are "endangered". Remember, CITES only regulates member nations, not smugglers or non member countries.
You say getting the permits for CB live sea horses isn't hard, then why aren't there ANY CB sea horses being imported into the US from abroad?
Have you produced any CB for sale in your own country yet? Have you proved to the Mexican government that you are in fact not decimating the wild population? BTW, I know your not, but do the Mexican greens really care your not? Can you convince them (the Mexican government) to stop shrimp trawling that kill hundreads of thousands of sea horses every year in Mexico as well as the tons of other bycatch that is thrown overboard?
Zea, thats all nice and dandy, but that still doesn't address the fact that smugglers in the TMC countries (which are unregulated by definition) will still produce more sea horse dust then ever before. CITES will never touch the smugglers, who BTW take FAR MORE THEN OUR MO INDUSTRY EVER HAS! And thats not even mentioning the the countries that use sea horse dust that are not members of CITES and could care less that they are "endangered". Remember, CITES only regulates member nations, not smugglers or non member countries.
You say getting the permits for CB live sea horses isn't hard, then why aren't there ANY CB sea horses being imported into the US from abroad?
Have you produced any CB for sale in your own country yet? Have you proved to the Mexican government that you are in fact not decimating the wild population? BTW, I know your not, but do the Mexican greens really care your not? Can you convince them (the Mexican government) to stop shrimp trawling that kill hundreads of thousands of sea horses every year in Mexico as well as the tons of other bycatch that is thrown overboard?
GreshamH":2k9s56ik said:
Hmmm...why not look around....www.marinedepotlive.com
Their Seahorses are shiped in from an Australian farm
www.LiveAquaria.com
Periodically they get in CB seahorses aswell that are bred in England.
Seahorses ARE being shipped in...
~Holden
Can you say "pre-ban"? I saw no mention of their (MDL) CB's being from AU, all though, I did see they had pre-ban sea horses still in stock! Yes, they did mention some CB being avaliable soon, but it didn't mention where they were from. FWIT, there are people doing CB SH locally and selling LFS and the likes. I bet thats how their going to get those. Have you seen any CB SH on any wholesalers list since they went Appendix II?
As for Liveaquaria, none are offered.
Are you familiar with when the ban went into place? We just sold our last pre-ban, that should give you some idea.
As for Liveaquaria, none are offered.
Are you familiar with when the ban went into place? We just sold our last pre-ban, that should give you some idea.
GreshamH":fd5g2epp said:
Tell me... what is the best way to regulate the seahorse trade? can any regulation/country or whatever control smugglers?... CITES is focused on International trade I know that, but if you can check the reports and scientific papers, the main source of dried seahorses for the TCM are Philipines and Vietnam. I know that Philipines is a CITES party (not sure of Vietnam but I guess they are also) and as CITES member if they want to export (legally export) the same 10 tons that they where providing to China they must prove that their develop a non-detrimental way to expliot the wild populations. There where some other suggestion as setting up a export quota cap and others... Philipines was considering a export cap.
On the other hand... The idea that marine ornamental industry is not a important pressure to wild populations as its TCM is not totally true. In the aquarium fish trade the seahorses are caught by hand (mostly, and maybe by chemicals) this is a real pressure to located wild populations, lets say that a group of fishermen arrives at a new place where there are seahorses, they will keep catching seahorses until depletion at that location and then moves on to a new location. This is a very focused presion that has a great impact on those populations.
GreshamH":fd5g2epp said:
Breeding seahorses is not a piece of cake!, just ask Ocean Rider
. there are not CB seahorses becasue this regulation is new it was announced 18 months before, but 18 months is not enough time to setup a seahorse farm. And it is the scientific authority of your country the ones that gives you the CITES certificate. GreshamH":fd5g2epp said:
Sure :lol:
GreshamH":fd5g2epp said:
Yes 8)
GreshamH":fd5g2epp said:
thats not true as many other things regarding our fisheries thats just politics...
But what I CAN DO IS TO OFFER MY CAPTIVE BREED SEAHORSES AS AN ALTERNATIVE OVER WILD SEAHORSES.
My main goal when I started my farm more than 2 years ago was to offer CB H.ingens. But now I will include as many other species as I can not just ingens.
you will soon see CB seahorses in the market.
Zea
One thing strikes me particularly while reading this thread:
There seems to be a lot of Kalk-logic going on. Kalk would say that cyanide is not the major problem faced by MO. He would then go on to blame the food fishing industry.
There were clearly abuses in the collection of WC seahorses (overcollection, collection of young specimens, etc...) pre-CITES. While I do believe that the curio/medicinal trade is a much bigger threat, I don't understand how people can seemingly advocate free collection of these fish. Fix one problem, then go after the next, no?
I'm not saying tighter regulation is the solution to everything, I'm simply pointing out that people seem to be using the same logic that gets Kalk ridiculed on a regular basis.
There seems to be a lot of Kalk-logic going on. Kalk would say that cyanide is not the major problem faced by MO. He would then go on to blame the food fishing industry.
There were clearly abuses in the collection of WC seahorses (overcollection, collection of young specimens, etc...) pre-CITES. While I do believe that the curio/medicinal trade is a much bigger threat, I don't understand how people can seemingly advocate free collection of these fish. Fix one problem, then go after the next, no?
I'm not saying tighter regulation is the solution to everything, I'm simply pointing out that people seem to be using the same logic that gets Kalk ridiculed on a regular basis.
Save_the_Expos":2fse4zwm said:
The problem I have with this statement is this : if our hobby is responsible for 1% of the collection, and the medicinal trade is 99%, then yes we are contributing to the problem...however, seriously, shouldn't the effort be placed elsewhere as far as curbing the collection?
I mean, come on...the food trade as far as fish are concerned and the medicinal trade as far as seahorses are MUCH bigger problems than our little hobby.
Let them solve the problems that take the majority of the animals out of the ocean, and then we can shape up.
Peace,
Chip
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